Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives #5

No offense taken. Each of us must decide what works for us and what doesn't in a story.

For me, "The Super-Moby Dick" shines because it gives us a reason to care about Lightning Lad and to sympathize with him even though he plans to kill the creature. The story sets up its situation very well and develops into a tense climax with the conflict coming (for the most part) from the characters having believable and conflicting goals. Furthermore, the story ends with Lightning Lad still crippled and learning to live with it.

"The Super-Moby Dick" has its flaws, as you point out, but an A does not equal perfection; it signifies excellence. Outstanding features such as those mentioned above sometimes override flaws.

I'm not sure how I would evaluate the Starfinger parts yet. Probably an A- for Part 1 and a B for Part 2.

That whale changed size more often than Oprah.

EXACTLY! One of my big complaints!

I was wondering if anyone else thought the Nura/Thom chemistry in this issue was better than the other Legion couples' prior to this story. I feel Swan's art played a big part in giving me that impression. Thoughts?

And, for some readers, the size-changing whale is more of an issue than it is for others. I wouldn't even have noticed the art snafu if it hadn't been pointed out.

As a writer, I tend to focus more on writing aspects of the story. The art serves the story, not the other way around. (Though art, understandably, is what most people notice about comics.) For some, art snafus are a distraction that prevents them from enjoying the story. For others, they're gaffes that can be overlooked.

Absolutely. There's a sweetness to their relationship in 342. Thom is clearly smitten, and she reciprocates. In fact, it's Nura who salvages the situation by joining the Subs and securing Thom's place in that group. She clearly loves him and vice versa.

I personally feel that synergy between writing and art is essential in this particular medium. Otherwise, one could just read a prose novel or browse through an art book. If one is weaker than the other, it's hard for me to feel the story succeeds.

Admittedly, this is a personal criterion that has evolved over my decades of comic reading. I used to feel more like you, in that I considered the story/script was more important. I understand that isn't precisely what you mean to say, but it's clear you lean in that direction.

That's a legitimate position.



I will absolutely admit that story is more important to me than art.

Art, however, is part of the presentation of the comic and, as with any presentation, can determine whether or not the message is received as intended. So, I never discount the value of art. However, I recognize that writing and art are separate disciplines executed (in this case) by different professionals, and I'm more interested in the work Hamilton, Siegel, Shooter, et al., did, than that of Forte, Swan, etc.

That said, an outstanding artist such as Swan can truly enhance a story.

I sometimes wonder if the tale is more important than the art, as some (like you and younger me) believe, then why read comics? You get so much more story for your money in a novel after all.

Is it the superheroes, which are still found primarily in comics? The frequent "fix" of a periodical? The open-endedness of a serialized story? The smaller time investment? More than likely, a combination of all these and more.

On some level, though, I maintain that it boils down to the fundamental difference of getting to "see" the story as you read. So whether you and others realize it, the art is much more important, at least on a subliminal level, than you give it credit for being.

There IS something more real about their romance here. Perhaps it's because we see them as a couple outside of their regular Legion duties; unlike with Garth/imra and Tinya/Jo who, if I remember right, we've only really seen doing couple-y stuff during the Weddings that Wrecked the Legion story. Granted, it may be because they're all Legionnaires while Nura wasn't, but still.

I think Swan's more naturalistic style definitely enhances the story and the romance angle. Forte's figures were so stiff and wooden, and the dialogue was so overly expository in earlier stories, it made it seem like teenagers acting their parts in a (really bad) high school play or something. Swan's poses and facial expressions are just so much more natural and convincing than Forte's ever were.

I believe the script is probably the most important, BUT I also think super duper art can really enhance a story, whereas mediocre art can really damage it. Look at the Mantis Morlo story for example. It could've been a great story, with a rare look at 3 Legionnaires' home planets, a new villain, a budding romance, etc. etc. Instead, it only rates as average imho, because the art is so bad.

Thanks, Jim. I really think a BIG part of Thom and Nura's chemistry is Swan's art. I wonder if Swan ever drew romance comics during his career? (His Wikipedia article appears incomplete with no attempt at a bibliography.) His penchant for more naturalistic and subtle facial expressions compared to many artists of his era would certainly make him a natural for them! There's a certain tenderness in the looks Thom and Nura have for each other in the story that sells them as a couple to me in a way that maybe John Forte couldn't.

Compare these 2 romantic panels by Forte and Swan. Not only is Imra's pose stiff and wooden, but she sounds like she's narrating a documentary about coral. She's dictating to Garth that she wants to be kissed. And neither her nor Garth's faces show any emotion at all. By contrast, Nura's face is full of emotion and she's reaching out to touch Thom's face. She doesn't have to tell him she wants to be kissed, her body language shows it all. And Thom's dialogue is all about his feelings for her. Who needs coral?

Now, that's a STARK contrast, Jim!

In Forte's defense, though, he may have done somewhat better in some other panels in that same story.

P.S. Is Nura workin' that barrette or what?

You mean her antenna?

Okay, maybe this is a more fair comparison. Forte does a little better here, with Garth and Imra actually touching and Garth is at least smiling. And lo and behold! Garth actually uses Imra's real name, whereas Star Boy uses Dream Girl. But still the figures look very stiff and hardly warm and cuddly.

That's definitely better, but it doesn't have Swan's warmth. Plus, Imra's boobs shown in profile distract once again!

Yes, Garth better be careful. If his finger twitches he could get a paper cut on those things.

I'd agree the art has a lot to do with increasing the romantic appeal of Star Boy and Dream Girl. She's really close to him, looking a bit dewy-eyed and touching his face; Garth and Imra, apart from being drawn somewhat stiffly, are just holding hands, at a distance. Perhaps Star Boy calls her Dream Girl because she is his dream girl.

The Star Boy trial story was a mix of great and questionable for me. The actual vote, while adding to the tension of the story, annoyed me because of the "all the girls voted for romance" explanation. Also, Saturn Girl voted and it seemed to me that the judge should not vote.

I figured Brainy was faking it with the video evidence Superboy found. Did he really know that was an android he killed, or was this one of his post-facto justifications?

The Legionnaires who voted against Star Boy didn't seem to consider that he was under extreme duress and not able to think through all the possibilities - no computer mind. Maybe his arm was so heavy, he couldn't even have aimed for the tree limb.

The above points aside, this tale illustrated one of my favourite themes, compassion. Superboy, Mon-el and Ultra Boy all understood that other people did not enjoy their privileged protection from harm. The Subs welcomed Star Boy into their ranks; I doubt they had a killing-is-okay policy, but they certainly had a different perspective on rejection from the Legion.

Furthermore, Saturn Girl displayed her unique personality of the hard-edged, rule-stickler Legionnaire that would set her apart from the other members, especially the females. It has surprised me, reading these early stories, how much of her character was established from the outset.

I'll occasionally still "catch" myself just reading the words.

Gon was a real eye opener for me. No words at all.

If I were a comics writer? My first page would be a warning to the reader, if you're not reading the art, don't bother because you won't understand the story I'm about to tell. Heck, I'd even steal the way Fables sets moods using the borders of the page.

Like most things practiced, my ability to read graphic literature has improved as I have gone on in life. There are many things in these books I am re-reading I did not know were there. Things that change the story and the mood.

Some books just seem like words with illustrations but when the writer-artist teams get it exactly right, the story purrs. It cannot be "read" and hope to be understood or enjoyed.

I love when the writer lets the artist tell the bigger portion of the story. It's daring and risky to not ram it down the reader's throats with words, to tell only "part" of the story and trust that the artist can convey and the reader will perceive the rest.

Re the discussion on art, plenty of scenes are more effective when simply drawn rather than when spelled out. Plus, terrible art can destroy a good script if the art doesn't clearly show what's going on.

Adventure #343

In general, I've never cared much for the concept of the Luck Lords, and in fact don't really like the idea of "luck" or probability in general for super-characters. (Maybe I missed a really great Longshot story?). The one great exception, of course, is Calamity King and a certain LW poster that came up with a groovy way to do it.

That all being said, what I like about this story is it throws front and center all the tragedy that's befallen many Legionnaires thus far. If DC was focusing more on psychological problems during this era, they could have included Dirk's space fatigue, Mon's centuries of isolation or even the big one: Garth's death and resurrection. It hammers home that being a superhero means sacrifice, and that's an important aspect of the genre. Marvel Comics had recently brought that aspect back to the forefront and the Legion was the perfect DC franchise to show not every series had forgotten it.

The opening splash opens with an awe-inspiring depiction of the Gorilla Nebula! Just another one of those "how could they not been on drugs" moments of genius.

In fact, everything about this issue is particularly beautiful by Swan and Klein. Hard to say why exactly but it feels even more vibrant than usual.

First Sun Boy and then Saturn Girl refer to superstition and luck as hogwash. Yet Hamilton does a good job showing the Legionnaires increasingly doubting themselves and succumbing to despair. It's a good way to show how belief in such things can overtake one--whether luck, religion or other things.

It's great to see the Super Pets! By now they had become increasingly rare.

This issue ties into a lot of past continuity by referencing various tragedies, as well as guest starring Bouncing Boy and Star Boy. The continued tight continuity continues to enhance the Re-read project.

Calamity King has his second appearance! And Star Boy throws him under the bus, leading to yet another brilliant EDE theory where Thom held a long term grudge and purposely prevented Calamity King from ever joining the LSH.

Perhaps the single biggest part of the story is that Garth refers to Imra as "the girl I love"! Man! Romance has gotten hot and heavy in the Legion! This is quite a shift from "dating".

The intro to Thuan and the Citadel is well done--even better than the Luck Lords themselves.

The story ends in the only way a story having to do with luck--by showing luck had nothing to do with anything. As they did years earlier, the Super-Pets save the day, though perhaps for the last time.

All in all, another solid story. Not my favorite but well done.

Bonus Lettercol Review: Mort clarifies that Imra was appointed Deputy Leader by Brainy in response to a fan question about who is the leader, anyway? It seems like he just makes it up on the spot, accidentally kicking off a long term Legion tradition!

Even crazier: some dude claims he's a superhero known as...Lard Lad!!! I shit you not! Did we know about this and discuss it years ago? Do we need to track this dude down for a fight to the death?!

An interesting discussion on writing and art over the weekend. In my opinion one simply cannot provide a critical evaluation of any comic book story without taking into account both art and writing, and viewing them as an interconnected thing. Since the medium itself stands out as visual storytelling, it by its very nature has a bigger emphasis on art than almost any other medium.

An artist in comics is most akin to a director in film, which as everyone knows, is the single most important person for any film project, more than the writers, actors, etc. Both the artist and the director are the decision makers on key moments, sequences and placements that serve as the very delivery system for the story.

Things like tone, tension and emotion are all conveyed through the artist. The artist is also in charge of the mis en scene--the placement of everything in the panels (and how the panels are placed themselves sometimes) which tells the most overt part of the story.

The example of Nura and Thom's romance is an excellent example of this. It's not enough to be told a couple is falling in love; with comics books the only way to effectively convey that emotion--to make us believe it--is through the art. In a sense, continuing to borrow from the film comparison, the artist must also do the job of the actor to make us believe what we're reading is real. The panels posted by Jim do a great job showing this: Nura and Thom are shown to the tender, vulnerable and caring, and therefore more romantic with a heavy, tense atmosphere. Meanwhile Imra is stiff and formal; it's almost as if she's acting the way she thinks she should act, instead of showing how she really feels. It makes her appear more awkward and cold, or at the very worst, dishonest.

That's not to say the writing is less important. That's certainly not the case (and I wanted to state the obvious). There are very different aspects of writing comics: general plotting, specific page by page plotting, scripting dialogue, etc. The most important of these is the "page by page plotting" and that is where the synchronicity of the writer and artist is most important. That is where the pacing and tension building occur, and where the transition from Point A to Point B either falls flat on its face or pops with excitement. It requires both parties working at their best.

I'm like Lardy. For many years, I would proclaim writing as the single most important part of the story. But I've grown to realize I was wrong, and see just how important the artist truly is in this medium.

Lardy, a quick check shows Swan never worked on any romance titles during his career (though many of them are notoriously uncredited so you never know).

He did work in a lot of other genres in the 50's though including war, crime and sci-fi. I'd be curious to see those stories. He got his start on Boy Commandos, being the first real recurring series artist when Kirby left.

He was probably just too busy with the Superman titles during the heyday of romance comics in the 50's and 60's.