Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives #5

Ugh. Super-ventriloquism. One of Kal-El's best-forgotten ancillary powers in my opinion. Doesn't hurt my feelings at ALL that it's pretty much been non-existent for quite some time...

This was a great story. Not sure if I'd put it in a "top ten" or whatever, but definitely pretty mature for Silver Age DC with a brave ending.

One thing I noticed from Swan's art here is that Thom comes across as possibly a little older than most of the other male Legionnaires. He comes across as slightly more ruggedly handsome here than the other more boyish faces. (Maybe he even has a fuller chest?) I could be imagining it. Obviously, he got the spotlight in this issue, so Swan would have spent more time rendering Thom's face for reactions and emotions. I suppose the crew-cut ages him as well, though I never was struck so before.

I like the chemistry between Thom and Nura here. It really rings true to their later further development as a couple. Sure it's more earnest and innocent here, but Swan somehow conveys their chemistry rather well without them actually kissing or heavily embracing. I believe them here as a budding couple more than what we've seen on-panel with Garth & Imra and Jo & Tinya. That's either a testament to Swan's superior talent or admittedly my bias as a fan of Thom/Nura. I'll be curious to see what Swan does with those other couples if and when the opportunity presents itself in successive stories.

Speaking of Nura, I noticed that in a panel or two she has long boots on partially up her shin instead of the slippers she wears otherwise. Future artists must have taken note as they foreshadow her stylish silver boots to come! Those and her stylish cape show some accessorizing on her part and make her stand out from the other girls who don't do that. It's good for both the welcome non-strict costume adherence so prevalent in the Silver Age (and the Legion) and because real girls would likely change up some instead of constantly wearing the same thing. (Supergirl herself would become an icon for frequent major and minor costume changes.)

If I were Hamilton, I would have used Thom's near-death encounter with Starfinger in his client's defense. In that story Thom could have used his power to cause Starfinger (then, not known to be a brainwashed Garth) to fall into the ocean and possibly drown in his own defense in order to not kill the villain. Consequently, Thom nearly died. Superboy could have argued this as influencing Thom's actions in a manner resembling PTSD. At the very least, it would show that Thom has shown respect for the code above and beyond and would never discard it callously. Brainy would probably have thrown it in Thom's face, though, berating Thom for not doing same again. In any case I wish it were used (or other previously-dramatized instances, such as the Super-Moby Dick) instead of making up new, fairly unremarkable situations.

I DO like how Brainy wasn't fooled by Proty's ruse and how he clearly used his intellect in what would normally be a very fearful situation. Where was this Brainy during the Computo 2-parter, huh? Probably no other Legionnaire would have reacted this way, so that's good usage of the character, as was his role in this story in general.

I hadn't remembered that Kenz Nuhor (Anyone else notice that sounding it out phonetically, his name can be pronounced "Ken's New Whore"?!? ) was basically a stalker! In its own way, this presages the phenomenon that celebrities are plagued by in modern times. I'd actually be curious to know more of New Whore's backstory and what the circumstances were of his relationship with Nura! I doubt the sequel that's been mentioned here went into that very much, but color me curious!

Again, a very good issue from the adventure era! I'm curious to see how it will stack up for me when I eventually rank all of these revisited stories in my mind.....

A ranking of top ten stories sounds like fun and may be something we'll want to pursue down the road (and not in this thread, so it won't detract from discussions). Perhaps we can tabulate the results and make a Legion World Top 10 of Adventure stories.

I've already been mentally grading the comics as I've been going along. So far, alas, I'd give only about four stories A's, including "The Legionnaire Who Killed."

I love the idea of ranking anything. This will give me an excuse to go back and read the third and fourth Archive, which I missed much of the discussion on.

It may be tricky to rank some of the earlier stories. They have such historical significance or introduce favorite characters, but not all of them are solid stories.

The idea of Thom being a little bit older is intriguing, and one that I like. I've always operated under the assumption Lar was a "year or two older" than his teammates. This was definitely reinforced by how he was depicted in the TMK and Postboot eras. Drawn a bit taller/wider than the others.

The age difference could attest to why Thom thought so many of the team's games and Shurg dancing was silliness over contemplating relationships in life.

True. Each of us will have to decide on some criteria for what makes a good Legion story. For me, because I've spent much of the last few decades studying writing and story telling, I prefer to focus on those aspects and forgo historical significance. Therefore, one of the weakest stories to me is Adv. 304, in spite of Lightning Lad's death. (In fact, most of the stories related to his death and resurrection are weak.) Others may have a different view.

Another criterion may be, how much do we factor in childhood memories? BB has waxed eloquently on this subject, and it may be difficult to separate our unconditional feelings from our evaluations--though we don't necessarily have to. (I've admitted that my fondness for 328 probably clouds my judgment a little; I like this story better than most others do.)

One reason I've been reluctant to offer grades in my reviews is because I'd like some sort of rubric specific to story telling or to comics (or to super-hero stories) to ensure a certain amount of objectivity as well as completeness. I did a bit of research a while ago but couldn't find a rubric to my liking. Maybe others have suggestions?

I had a theory about this a while back that I posted on the now defunct Silver Age Legion board. The very next story is The Evil Hand of the Luck Lords. In it, the Luck Lords were thought to be responsible for Star Boy's ill-fated journey to visit his parents that led to his expulsion. In that story it is cowardice that makes Invisible Kid turn himself invisible in order to ward off the Luck Lords' curse. After doing so, he was unable to return to normal. Imagine being made invisible against your will. You might start to question your very existence. I Kid's cowardice in this story may have caused a crisis of conscience that may have made him more compassionate toward Star Boy, who was also supposedly cursed by the Luck Lords and he may have later seen the chance to reverse his vote after he became leader.

"Farted the bog down to its bottom." Lol, I'm still chuckling over that.

"Rules." Rules dictating behavior over no-win situations might be written to give pause? Given (imposed) by societies to cause individuals to at least consider other possibilities. It is not beyond us to decide for the individual, which no-win decision we prefer as a society or even to instill severe penalties to those that choose otherwise.

The concept that the lives of others, even criminals are worth more than our own? Not beyond the realm. I'd be surprised if there weren't a few established philosophies that believe along those lines?

Ranking: I think the only criteria I'd use would be, which stories do I like best. It's the only thing I'm qualified to measure.

While I've no doubt of the writers on the thread that this issue is solidly constructed, it only moderately held my interest as a stand alone story. Even after all these years, the art and colors popped. It was a very nice looking story. But I never did buy into Brainy's assertion that the branch wouldn't have squished Star Boy. Regardless, to me then and now, the correct controversy was not whether or not Star Boy could have resolved the situation without killing Nuhor but rather that he should have been willing to die rather than kill Nuhor. Effectively the same result but semantically different. That was the direction I saw the story/prosecution should have gone and IMO, the more controversial.

In making the rule, was Legion saying that any Legionnaire pledges to die, rather than kill? That is a concept worth exploring IMO. That is what Brainy should have been prosecuting, not whether Star Boy could have resolved the issue without killing Nuhor. After all, Nuhor was after only one person. The harder story to write, similar to Zod, would have been Roxxas.

Interesting...

I'm sure I'll reread the story with that thought in mind. To me, turning invisible was a practical solution to the problem but I think I'll be rereading it with more thought given to their motivations.

I'm not sure "cowardice" describes Invisible Kid's choice to turn himself invisible in 343. It seemed more like a simple precautionary measure to ward off the jinx.

Otherwise, I like your theory. The experience of not being able to turn visible again would certainly have unnerved Invisible Kid and make him realize how precarious his (and Star Boy's) situation was.

That's probably the main criterion any of us use. Still, I find it useful to analyze why I like what I like. Looking at stories through the lens of specific criteria or standards is not only fun. It can uncover insights and preferences we didn't know we had.

Okay, "cowardice" may be too strong a word. "Most worried" was the phrase used in the actual story to describe I Kid and Violet.

"Fear" may be more appropriate. In the scene, Lyle is quick to say that if bad luck is real, all of the Legionnaires present are jinxed because they touched the jinx stone. Two panels later, he turns invisible because "maybe that'll ward off the jinx." If it's not fear (which would be a reasonable response to facing an unknown threat), he's at least being very cautious.

Out of curiosity, I looked up Wikipedia's definition of "cowardice":



While Lyle may have been afraid--it's impossible to tell in the scene--he did not express excess self-concern. Nor did he do anything that jeopardized what was "right, good, [or] of help" to himself or others. In fact, he immediately tried to help Vi before learning he couldn't turn visible again.

You edited your post while I was typing mine.

We'll go with "most worried" then.

That's how I read Math books.

Story books? I agree or disagree with the routes taken. Get generally POed if they let the bad guy win by making the hero stupid instead of making the bad guy clever and the good guy more clever. That's probably the extent of my "analysis" when reading. I enjoy or not and try to let the writer take me where they want to take me. I'm easily manipulated, lol.

Since I don't have a literature background upon which to relate the technicalities of story construction, I don't considered myself qualified to rate "ten best" upon any of those things other than "I enjoyed it." I imagine my criteria probably encompasses in an integrated way, most of the things the writer was trying to accomplish. I'm sure I miss a lot in stories that others get but for now, my process works for me.

This was a really odd story for a superhero comic of that era. Superheroes just didn't kill period so having a teen hero kill even in self defense was probably a big deal at the time. There was no real chance that the vote could have gone the other way. Star Boy would have to leave the Legion because heroes didn't kill back than. Very cool that Thom ends up joining the subs and even though the story ends with him taking one last look at the clubhouse he does appear in the very next issue. This story also introduces Color Kid and Calamity King both of who eventually become legion members during the 5 yr gap. Love how something that would normally be just a throw away panel lots of times is used in the future!

The comparison to math books is interesting. On one hand, we're taught to think of math as objective and storytelling as subjective, but a certain amount of objectivity in analyzing stories can help us evaluate them and uncover our own preferences or even prejudices. This is called critical thinking.

If someone says, "I like chocolate ice cream because it tastes good," they're really saying the same thing twice. They're not giving a reason ("because") or drawing a conclusion. A reason would be something like, "I like chocolate ice cream because my mother used to give me two scoops after I did my homework." A conclusion would be, "Therefore, I learned to associate chocolate ice cream with reward." Not only has the person learned to evaluate chocolate ice cream but to understand where her evaluation comes from.

Analyzing stories by asking critical questions can produce similar revelations. Do I like this story? Why? Do I not like it? Why not? Is it the character? The dialogue? The villains? The hero's crewcut? And is that the only aspect of the story I don't like? Are there other aspects that work for me?

Reviewing these old Legion stories has produced some interesting revelations for me. In some cases, I've come away with a better appreciation of a story I previously neither liked nor disliked (339 is a good example); in other cases, my opinion was reinforced by better understanding the flaws or strengths of the story.

It sounds like you do the same thing in a less formalized way. As you point out, the main goal is to ask, "Where is the writer trying to take me?" and "Did he, in fact, take me there?" The yes/no answer can then be expanded with reasons ("The bad guy makes the hero look stupid") and specific examples--which, to a degree, is what most of us have done in these reviews.

The bottom line: Use whatever works for you.

And, in a rare bit of continuity, Star Boy in 343 reflects back to shaking hands with Calamity King as what produced his bad luck. Hamilton surely must have been thinking ahead when he introduced Calamity King; the other examples of the Legionnaires breaking bad luck taboos (Lightning Lad stepping onto a world with his left foot, Triplicate Girl triplicating three times in one day, and Bouncing Boy winding the Planet Clock backwards) are not in their respective stories.

One of my absolute favorite parts of the reread. That and finding little easter eggs in the Legion Outpost.

Matter-Eater Man, awesome to have you join us! And good mention of the significance of the issue introducing two future Legionnaires, even if they're two of the more obscure ones.

HWW, out of curiosity, which stories would you rank as "A" so far? Is my beloved "Mutiny" one of them? (Meaning should I get ready to say "YOU'RE NUTS!!!"). I'd think the Beast Boy story probably also qualifies.

Cobie, you can go ahead and say "YOU'RE NUTS!!!" I'd give "Mutiny" an A-.

My A's:
"The Legionnaire Who Killed" 342
"The Super-Moby Dick of Space" 332
"The War Between Krypton and Earth" 333
"The Hunters of the Super-Beasts" 339

Now that I know I have those, I think I'll put those issues next to the tub.

Did you know that in the next issue on the reading list, Legionnaires STEAL!!! in the very first panel. They deserved all the "bad luck" that came their way.

YOU'RE NUTS!!!



Well, at least it's an A-. I agree about all the other four which I loved and thought were high quality.

I think almost all of the A's on my list are still to come.

REALLY?!?! No offense intended, but I think that one's undeserved. That probably wouldn't surprise you as I outlined my problems with said issue in the last thread. It was much better than I remembered it being, but I'd give it a "B" at best....

Of those missing from your list, I'd give "Starfinger" Part 1 (and possibly Part 2) a solid "A" off the top of my head.

One small additional personal caveat about the current Kenz Nuhor issue at hand: I'd have preferred if, during Lu's example of being in dire peril, that Hamilton and Swan had portrayed her as Triplicate Girl instead of Duo Damsel in it.

Don't get me wrong: I can see why it was done: a) to correctly portray a current member's powers for a new reader, & b) to make regular readers know Lu's status quo is permanent. But if they'd shown Trips instead, it would have been an opportunity to briefly recap what happened to her in the previous story, and it would have made more sense because the LSH would obviously have more "tape" on Trips than on DD.

I know, I know---the very next issue would refer to Lu's tragedy among the other recent Legion misfortunes, but it felt crass enough to take me out of that story for a moment.

And, yeah, I also realize Lu's loss of one of her bodies was basically downplayed for a long, long time, and she's eventually get her due. And that's why I call it a "caveat" and not an "abomination"!