Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

In fact it would be great if we could all agree do a particular non-Legion re-read simultaneously at some point!

The reason I think Songbird hasn't been an Avenger is because once that happens, its basically over for the Thunderbolts. She's basically the glue that holds that series together.

... we had some good times reviewing an Avengers run that Fanfic Lass really liked. Dev and I read them and commented with FL's comments. was fun. It was the Harras and Epting era.

I've been wanting to pick up and read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Thor-Ragnarok...=22R8JBUEKW9D2&coliid=I30ERO7WKCSLEW

but it might be too wacky.

I was just thinking this very thing. Any iteration of the Thunderbolts without her has floundered, it seems, and turned into a kind of subpar Marvel attempt at making a Secret Six comic, without a third of the characterization or appeal.

Which makes it all the more mind-boggling that this character was taken from 'Screaming Mimi,' and turned into the glue for *anything,* ever.

Were I to make a top 10 list of crappy villains for Scourge to pump full of bullets and leave in a unmarked mass grave behind the Bar With No Name, Screaming Mimi would have been on the list twice.

And yet, a writer with more vision than I picked her up, dusted her off and re-imagined her into an amazing character. So what do I know?

(Ditto the Fixer, Beetle, Power Man and Moonstone, kind of dull one-note characters, picked up and re-made into Techno, Mach V, Atlas and Meteorite, of which, Moonstone has also really made out like a bandit, going on to become one of Marvel's go-to bad girls, now that Emma Frost is more or less a 'hero.')

on Screaming Mimi appearing on your list twice!

Songbird really symbolizes just what a fantastic thing Busiek did with Thunderbolts, doesn’t she? The others, as you say, are all fantastic characters, but at least some of them had *some* prior bits to build on. (Though Busiek still was masterful in what he did with each). With Songbird, Busiek really just went all out.

Dave Cockrum's 2nd X-Men run .. that weird extended space opera may be a hidden gem ... maybe.

One example is how could the Vision be made from the body from the original Human Torch when the Torch had recently returned to action?

CoIE is actually spectacular.

About two years ago, I did a complete reread of the Claremont X-Men from start to finish.... And you know what? It was awesome. Far better than I even remember.

Every time I've tried to reread CoIE as an adult, I have always come to the same assessment: everything you've said captures my feelings about the first 7 issues. Then I feel the book drags for a few issues, then pulls it back together for a decent finish, but even that still doesn't compare to issue 7 for emotional climax.

Now, I haven't read it in several years, so my opinion may change. I'm currently doing a reread of bronze age books that will climax (eventually) with CoIE. Do you think you can present an interpretation to give me a better appreciation for the back half, or do you think this is probably just an agree-to-disagree thing?

I know you’re a bit biased Lardy, but I think you might actually enjoy some of those post Secret Wars II issues that I know killed the series for you. (And I’m recalling a conversation we had on this way back in 2000 or 2001 on the DCMB’s.

Lardy, you’re reviewing of Ennis and Dillon’s Hellblazer has suddenly moved these issues to the front of the pile for me to read!! They sound awesome! And as a diehard Ennis fan, I must read them. Are they collected in easily accessible trades, do you know? My Hellblazer reading is very spotty at best, and I’ve only ever read Azzerello’s run.

And please share the other pieces of your Bronze Age revisit! I'm definitely curious as to what you're reading and how you're finding it. The run-up to Crisis always felt like one of the very best eras in superhero comics ever, perhaps the only other time that has reached Golden Age or Silver Age heights.

Firestorm. Outsiders, the Roy Thomas Earth 2 titles, probably more will continue to creep in. The Omega Men series is one thing I've never read before I'm going to cycle in.

I’ve given this a little thought, and let’s see if I can express what I’m thinking. I agree that the first 7 issues really is what nails what makes this series so great, and sets a standard for not only the rest of the series, but all superhero comics of that era. Like we’re both saying, it comes down to pacing, story structure, dialogue, maximum characterization in minimal panel space, usage of an over-abundance of characters, ability to use continuity as a set-up and then allow the characters to react organically, etc.

From there, however, Wolfman and Perez are faced with an interesting issue: what to do to get the series to 12 issues long? Clearly the story isn’t over yet, there’s a lot of time to get to 12 issues, and this came out during an era (following Camelot 3000) that 12 issue series were kind of the benchmark. So what they do, and I think quite successfully, is a few things.

First, in #8, they advance the plot much more slowly, while focusing on the subplot of the Flash and giving him the send-off he deserves. I actually really love this issue and think the Flash’s end is incredibly dramatic. It’s not as heartfelt as the Supergirl death, but it captures something else: the totally science-fiction-ness and grandiose nature of Flash adventures, specifically in the form that Schwartz, Broome, Kanigher and Infantino first presented the character in. The way he dies, which is incredibly heroic, just fits the Flash. And in this issue, it also advances Wally West as another major person the reader can link to emotionally (while at the same time, backing away on a few others).

From there, Marv and George turn the focus on another “mini-story” / subplot to keep things moving along, which is namely the villains all rising up to conquer the multiple Earths. It keeps the series moving, wraps up a few subplots (Luthor / Braininac, Psimon, etc.) and also answers the question “what are all the villains doing?” since by now this was clearly a DC series that was using all of its various heroes, so therefore one must assume they would use all their villains. Marv and George therefore take all the tools they used in the first 7 issues of the series on the heroes, and try to apply it to the villains in 1-2 issues. I think they succeed, and the reason is that while the villains get good play, the heroes get equally as much. It allows for a lot of intermixing that had never been seen before, such as the Atom (in full on Sword of the Atom gear) freeing Billy Batson and the other kids so the Marvels can join the fray.

From there, the last three issues are especially unusual in their pacing: you get the big Spectre showdown versus the Anti-Monitor, resulting in loss (which can be really blamed on the villains failure to hold up their end); then #11 introducing the post-Crisis DCU for the first time as the heroes struggle to understand just like the readers are; and then #12, the big finale. Going back to #10, I can see what Marv is trying to accomplish: he clearly had in his mind how the heroes would finish off the A-M in #12 but needed to address why certain others aren’t involved: the magic-users (especially the Spectre), the other time heroes (key among them the Legion), the villains and a whole bunch more. While he is able to give the magic-users something to do here, this issue also kind of takes a lot of these characters off the board, so the story can begin shrinking again to a more manageable finale. If there is any single issue in CoIE that *almost* goes off the rails, its #10, though its still loaded with great moments, including how the massive group of heroes is able to even confront the A-M in the first place.

#11 hits next, and it brings with it a tone that no other issue of CoIE has. At first this can be jarring, but what Marv is doing now is introducing the concept of the combined Earths, combined history and a single Earth DCU. Superman and Batman provide great POV’s for the readers, since as being DC’s biggest icons, they essentially will hold our hands as we get used to this strange new reality. It’s interesting that the heroes remember the multiple Earths in this issue though later that wouldn’t be the case. It’s necessary here though for narrative reasons. This issue leaves the reader with an uneasy feeling because (A) it’s a whole new world and (B) there’s still so much unfinished business. And that second aspect rolls us right into #12.

As you say, you enjoyed the finale yourself. I personally love this issue and think its nothing short of brilliant. First there is the big attack on the A-M by a smaller group that allows Marv and George to really strut their stuff by showcasing strategy, powers, action, etc. Then there is the pure sense of panic on Earth, complete with deaths of heroes we know are being removed from the board (E2 Robin, E2 Green Arrow, etc.). There’s also the small roles others play like the aforementioned magic-users. And throughout it all, Marv makes sure to keep the story down to Earth by linking readers to specific characters like Kid Flash (and I admit I cry every time I read the final pages), Superman and Superman & Lois of Earth-2. Marv succeeds in a double-victory: first by the heroes combined and then next by Superman of Earth-2, who is really “the one who started it all” dying to save the DCU. There’s nothing more symbolic about the company pre-Crisis no longer being the same company post-Crisis.

I think these issues all present something individually appealing and are successful in that. But as you say, there is something that changes pacing-wise and tone-wise from the first 7 issues to these next five, and even more, it then changes each issue all the way to the end (with #12 being much like the first 7). I think they succeed every time, though it can get noticeable around the #9-10 range.

I am interested in your thoughts. What’s been missing from these crossovers ever since Crisis is the small scenes that now often get skipped over. When Wally West rejoining the Titans is in question, Cyborg asks Speedy what he decided and Speedy responds with “chalk one up for the good guys!”. We see Dr. Light meeting the heroes for the first time, some initial confusion, and Superman arriving to broker a quick peace. The interaction between Hawk & Dove and Red Star lasts just three panels…and in those three panels they get more characterization each than they had in the prior 15 years. Marv doesn’t just introduce Tomahawk for the sake of it—he takes the time to give you two panels that get to the heart of the character. It’s amazing!