Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Re-Reads (Now Reading: Swamp Thing: 1971 through 1985)

I think UI got the first arc and lost interest or something. Either that or it got purged due to finances. I'll look for it at some cons in the future though.

One of the coolest commissions I have is a GA Sandman from Guy at a convention years ago. Guy is a really nice guy and always willing to talk.

You might have dropped it because it seemed so formulaic at first. But as the mythologies build and the characters start to shine, it just sings! Teddy Kristiansen's art can be jarring at first, but it was really ahead of its time. Seagle and he are frequent collaborators, including their biggest success Superman: It's a Bird. I've actually never read that one, but I will some day.



Like Kristiansen, it took me a couple of arcs to warm up to Guy Davis' style on SMT. I grew to absolutely LOVE Davis' stuff, too.

Great idea for a thread, and one I hope to use when the opportunity presents itself. A few random follow ups:

- Lardy, I agree about "Whatever Happened to..." in all ways. It really doesn't hold up in comparison to Moore's other work, especially Supreme. And a lot of that is the ultra violence. I do love that Legion sequence though.

- I really love the Golden Age and have reread it multiple times. It's what I'd consider Robinson's seminal work, and its a great character piece and period piece with an awesome villain twist.

- New Frontier is the best thing DC has done in 30 years. Few things even come close.

- looking forward to thoughts on Avengers Forever, which I LOVED when it was coming out.

- CoIE is actually spectacular. I reread it not long ago for like the 30th time. It stands out as a masters degree course on story telling, pacing , characterization, artwork and every other element that makes comics good. Forget about the consequences. As a story, it's phenomenal.

- PAD's CM started out so good and then dragged like all of PAD's mid-90's / late 90's comics. And like Lardy says, that 'mad-god' story ruined the character forever. He was trying to compete with Joe Q and Bill Jemas in the uber-ridiculous completion they had. He won it and it wasn't his fault but the end result is Genis is gone.

- I've reread Preacher and Sandman so often that I basically know it all by heart at this point.

- still need to check out S:MT! Especially since Matt Wagner is my boy now more than ever. Same goes for House of Secrets. Eventually for both.

Oddly enough, just this year, House of Secrets got its own Omnibus! As overlooked as I've always thought it was, this is very heartening.

Still no love (read: collections) for Mark Millar and Phil Hester's excellent run on Swamp Thing, which I've definitely gotta re-read sometime, as well.

I still don't get why Songbird isn't an Avenger yet! They've had pretty much everyone else join up. Songbird was great in Avengers Forever and I believe the present-day one is deserving of a spot.

The New Frontier did turn into an alien invasion, but it still holds up well IMO. The sheer spirit driving the characters and the story was joyous.

Preacher's strength, for me, is that it still manages to keep its core cast "good" despite all the sh*t that happened to them.

The reason I think Songbird hasn't been an Avenger is because once that happens, its basically over for the Thunderbolts. She's basically the glue that holds that series together. It wasn't always the case, but that's how it was recently before I dropped the title. And of course the real reason is because all the writers who had an interest in doing that are long gone.

I'm thinking of doing a possible Astro City reread to gear up for the new relaunch. I've forgotten so much of the series over the years.

Well, one of the great things about Astro City is that you don't have to do re-reads for the purpose of not being lost when the latest series is released. Every story or arc is self-contained and enjoyable in and of itself. I mean, it's definitely enhanced if you get every reference and appearance, but not at all necessary for enjoyment.

But you knew that.

In any case an AC re-read is ALWAYS worth it! I might do a mini-re-read of it from Local Heroes-on at some point. So many great shorter stories in that mini and the one-shots that followed before, during and after Dark Age!

Of course! But well worth saying anyway.

But for sheer excitement purposes, I'm dying to read those initial 18 or so issues again after all this time. I remember exactly where I was when I first saw the Old Soldier...and then wondered about him repeatedly for 15 years.

I actually feel so bad for you regarding Sandman Mystery Theatre because I know it's one of those things you would fall so completely in LOVE with! Knowing your love for noir, pulp and period pieces, I just don't understand why you haven't made this happen!!!

I just need the time! Maybe when I finish my current book ("People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn), I'll dive in. I know--it sounds like its right up my alley!

Plus, Matt Wagner is writer/co-writer for most of its run! And even afterward, Seagle doesn't miss a beat by himself when Wagner leaves!

Yeah, now that you say that, I think so too.

Having completed the re-read of Avengers Forever a few days ago, I have to admit that it suffers a little from this experience from how I remember it. It's still a very good story, but it's flaws are revealed.

I think the single biggest, most glaring thing about it is that the main purpose of it is so obviously to ret-con/revise a lot of Avengers history. Admittedly, there were a LOT of inconsistencies and contradictions over the then-40+ years of continuity. Forever usually shows you these things and then explains them. One example is how could the Vision be made from the body from the original Human Torch when the Torch had recently returned to action?

The answer to this, and all of the other fixes Busiek provides in this series, lies in various time manipulations of Kang and Immortus, primarily the latter. You see, Immortus from the beginning of his career as such (he's actually Kang at a later stage of his life) has had as his primary purpose to keep mankind from expanding their reach far into the stars. It seems that in many timelines, humans have become a ruthless conquering force throughout space. And the Avengers and their adventures play a key role in making this possible. Immortus admires the Avengers, so instead of simply destroying them, he tries to manipulate their destiny in ways that will inhibit mankind.

So a LOT of the narrative is spent showing flashbacks and how these served Immortus' goals. It also showed how these often backfired. The result is that much of Forever is basically continuity porn. If you love this kind of thing, then this is for you. if no...well, there's an awful lot of it! I happen to love it generally, but even I was a little bored of it at times.

It's also a little jarring, with modern sensibilities, how heavy the narration is. Now, it's almost nonexistent. Here, it is SUPER-HEAVY! And not just for the continuity porn, which is necessary, but also for the other here-and-now sequences. You know this from the get-go when Kurt narrates a future invasion by a ruthless Avengers army to set up the kind of thing Immortus is driven to prevent. The prose is fairly purple and a little over the top, here and throughout.

One benefit, though, is that there's plenty to read, so you really feel like you get your money's worth. I'd say each issue of Forever takes me more than twice as long to read as the average comic published these days does. Many modern singles and trades just don't feel worth the money because of the expediency of the read. No danger here of that!

All that said, there's plenty to love about this series. As already mentioned, we have a great mix of main characters. And in issue 11, we even get an explanation as to why this mix was needed to accomplish the goal at hand. Plus, Kang and Immortus are at the very top of the list of Avengers villains, and we get a grand, epic story worthy of their involvement. In an interesting twist, they aren't even the primary antagonists!

And we do get a lot more insight into Kang and Immortus. Kang (and by extension, Immortus) even gets a whole issue to himself where he examines his history and struggles with his destiny to become Immortus. Just when it looks like that future is Kang's inevitability, he finds a strong reason to turn his back on it again, which plays a key role in Forver's resolution. In fact the Kang/Immortus thing ends up being resolved once and for all in the end.

I think my favorite part is when the Avengers team is split into three groups and explore three eras. This comprises approximately the middle of the story. the attention to ret-conning here is minimal, and the vibes in the three adventures are very different from each other.

The ending to theories is also very widescreen in its scope. So many great cameos from different eras and various throwaway stories. And overall, very satisfying. The only caveat being the somewhat nebulous element of the so-called "destiny force" which was never sufficiently explained. It wasn't necessarily crucial to the narrative's unfolding, but it was there and a little confusing.

All in all, I'd be reluctant to recommend Forever to someone I want to introduce to the Avengers. I'd have to think they'd find it overly confusing and not all that entertaining. But for a fan of classic Avengers, this one is definitely worth visiting...and re-visiting.

I'd be extremely curious as to what any of you who expressed interest in re-reading Forever might think after you eventually do your own re-read.

In fact it would be great if we could all agree do a particular non-Legion re-read simultaneously at some point!

My current re-read is the final year of Garth Ennis'/Steve Dillon's great run (from where I left off last year when I had to replace the missing issue) on Hellblazer! I'm finding the shorter re-reads to be more appealing this year as the time investment is lighter. I'll probably do Miller/J.R. Jr.'s Man Without Fear mini next.

I remember loving Man Without Fear when it came out. If I can find it, I'd love to reread. But that might be kind of tough as it'd be in a random box of Marvel miniseries.

No one can read this and not love JR Jr!

^ except maybe...Fanfic Lass? She's not a fan of the Jr.!

I wonder how you guys feel about the Avengers Forever re-review on the previous page. Does it make you feel more or less likely to want to re-read it? How does it ring true (or false) to your memory of it?

Loved Man without fear. That was the Miller penned mini correct? If so, I need to find mine. I think I have it signed by the main creative team.

Regarding Avengers Forever, your review actually makes me want to read it again sooner than I probably would have wanted to. Love the fact that it is so dense with information. I loved it the first few times I read through it...and do not see that changing any time soon.

Yeah, it's basically DD's origin retold with Miller at his best. Romita Jr. does the art. Only drawback is the foil covers. Not as badly done as some of them, but I can't help but feel that the covers would have been so much better without them.



This was only my second read of Forever. I forgot somehow to mention how wonderful Carlos Pacheco's art is in that series. Truly some phenomenal work, up there with some of the best Avengers art ever! It's too bad Pacheco has never had an extensive run on an Avengers ongoing (or on anything, really).

Yeah, Carlos rocks pretty much everything he does.

You have me wanting to find it now...maybe this week anyway.

I'd be thrilled to read your thoughts! I remember when we were doing that back-and-forth on Ennis' war comics....

We need to find that and finish those.

Lardy, I agree with your assessment. I remember very little of what I read because of all the text and prose. I do remember understanding the story well enough even with my limited knowledge of the Avengers, but there was just so much going on that not too much stuck in my mind.

I tried re-reading it, and couldn't really get past the first issue. Instead, I turned to my BWahaha JLI comics. Specifically, some of the Annuals and JL Quarterly issues - I preferred the stand-alone tales to the "main" series because there were quite a lot of background subplots going on in the main series.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

COIE was one of the inspirations for me when I was writing my parts in LOTO. My "Weber's World War" scenes owed a lot to the scenes in COIE where Wolfman and Perez had dozens (if not hundreds) of heroes and villains duking it out vs. each other and the shadow demons! It's amazing how big of an impact a character can make with just a short scene showing him or her kicking ass!