Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities DC runs off George Perez!

reposted from my facebook.


Dayam! Now DC has driven off George Perez, one of the two guys that virtually ressurected their superhero line in the early eighties, and is still considered one of the greatest comic book artists in the business. How much more is the current crew gonna fuck up before DC comics crashes completely?
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Cranky McBasstard so, and this is only what I have supposed by piecing together what I have been reading in more than one place over the last several years, DC has basically become a feeder for movies now. Granted, a hit movie will make vastly more than a hit book, or even a hit line of books. But, in the new "synergistic" sounding DC, everything has changed. Instead of the movies taking the best of the books and turning them into stories that drive the movies, the movies are driving the books. Just look at the shitty new costumes. Supes is pretty much the same in the books now as the movie. Corporate is guaranteed to fuck it up because they only go for money. Its built into the bottom line. Its been a nice run, but DC is now destined, I fear, to become yet another 3rd rate comic company. The oldest and Grandest. Fans wanted Warners for years to put a little something into the company to rebuild. We should have been more careful what we wished for. Artists that draw poses, writers that have very little sense of plot, pacing, tension. Editors that cannot help but meddle in stories to the point that longtime, fan favorite writers that actually know how to plot and deliver, are run off, as well as artists. shame.

Sigh. At least we'll still have our back issues.

What's funny is that when people talk about "running off" stuff here, they mean "copied", as in photocopying

Also, this thread is useless without links to an actual quote from Pérez.

From: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=46486


"Well, while I have enjoyed considerable professional and personal success with both Marvel and DC, it was becoming all too evident that many of the books being produced by both companies seem to be getting more and more corporate driven. Many of the characters I grew up with were turning into strangers whose adventures were determined by factors that had less and less to do with what made a good comic story and more to do with how these properties can be exploited for other purposes."

Woulda beat you if I didn't copy the quote as well.

Isn't he a bit vague with that comment? What specifically did he want to do that he wasn't permitted to do?

Characters with back-story are all limited in what the writer can do with them. Always have been. The comic book writer working with established characters, timelines and "universes," either accepts that they cannot write any old thing they please or they don't.

The rest of the article seems to me to be saying, "it's easier to write original characters of my own creation," and "I'll get better benefits at this other company."

I don't see where DC or Marvel are the blame here?

BB, just take an overall look at things. Longtime creators such as Chuck Dixon, GP, James Robinson, etc.. are bolting for the hills. Newer creators that should be chompin' at the bit to work for DC, one of the "big two" and the company that started it all in a big way for super heros... are leaving after one or two issues. It's becoming a pattern that is all to recognizable. Add in things like the Gail Simone/Editorial/Batgirl fiasco, Keith leaving Legion after what, basically two issues.... Someone at DC, actually, a lot of folks at DC... don't know what the hell they are doing. I've been a DC fan all my reading life, and I'm down to about nine books, and they keep on cancelling the ones I do like, or giving all the books I was reading to Scott Lobdell. And then I cancel those as well. (not because I have anything against him, I just don't like the stories he's telling.)

Someone somewhere needs to wake up at DC.

As well, most creators that have had a longtime relationship with a company don't like to burn bridges, since their jobs are tenuous at best. We might say "Eff company x, I'm never gonna work here again!" but there are only so many companies in the comic industry. Lots of "no harm no foul" partings, but that is often a mask. Not saying it is with GP, but the mass exodus that DC is experiencing... well, what's the common denominator?

DC.

I recently got to see and speak to the great George Perez at a comic convention here in Perth and here's a list of what I remember him saying:

* His recent run on Superman was the unhappiest experience he'd ever had in comics and he "couldn't wait to get off it".
* As Keith Giffen was taking over for him on the book he told George that he couldn't believe he'd quit after only six issues. After only one month on the book Keith told him that he couldn't believe he'd lasted that long! (I think Keith himself was gone after only two or so issues.)
* I asked George how the industry had changed since he had started out in it and he said that all DC books are now completely run by a committee of Warner Bros and DC executives who then dictate to the writers what will happen in them. He said that most of these people have zero 'creative' abilities between them and instead come at the comics from a completely business point of view.
* Unlike how you describe things in your post above, Blockade Boy, George said that that was nothing like the creative process that he and Marv Wolfman had enjoyed on The New Teen Titans.
* George said he doesn't have a favourite character in comics because he finds it too hard to choose. That's why he loves doing team books - he gets to draw so many of them. His first favourite team in comics was the Justice League, followed soon after by the Legion of Super-Heroes.
* Getting to draw the Legion in Legion of Three Worlds was a long-held dream for him and the very last item on his artistic bucket list.
* One character he's never drawn before but that he said he'd like a crack at is Judge Dredd. He really likes his design.
* Someone asked about thought balloons in comics and George says he misses them. He said that so many writers and artists these days (and probably the editors that tell them what/how to write/draw) are trying to make comics look like movie story-boards (which obviously can't employ thought balloons) instead of embracing the iconic conventions of the medium. (I cheered inside when I heard that.)
* Asked about artists he admires, he listed a few that I've forgotten, but one artist that he did single out for special praise was Don Heck! He said that Don might not have been the best penciller in the business, but that he was incredibly gifted as a draftsman/artistic storyteller, a skill essential to comics but that gets unfairly overlooked these days. (I couldnt help but think of David Finch who draws some extremely beautiful pin-ups but has to be one of the worst artistic storytellers ive ever seen.) He said writers/editors loved Don back in the day because they knew he would deliver the story they had created. (Don Heck drew some of the first comics I ever read so I was happy to hear that story.)
* George said that coming off Crisis he pretty much had his pick for books to work on (except Superman and Batman of course who were going to Byrne and Miller) so when he chose Wonder Woman the DC big-wigs were surprised and thrilled. Apparently NO ONE wanted to work on that book. Also apparently - the book had actually already been given to someone else who had written two issues. George said he partly took the book because those two issues were just not good and actually had some elements that were offensive to women.
* He said that he felt the mythological aspect of Wonder Woman had been underused for a long time so was hoping to focus on that a bit more. He wanted to create a sort of Ray Harryhausen style book in the DCU and so the first story he wrote for Wonder Woman was the one that later became the 'Challenge of the Gods' arc. (Funny because that was my favourite arc of the whole run.)
* Asked what he thought of the current usage of his Titans characters George said he doesn't read any DC books anymore so only knows what he hears via the Internet. George says he doesn't even read the books he writes at DC because only a percentage of it will actually be his own writing. Lots of books at DC get partly re-written by editors or spec-writers because plans are always changing there and the book's actual writers are often either unavailable (or unwilling after already having done a number of last-minute re-writes to appease editor whims) to make the changes. George said he'd never had this problem on The New Teen Titans or Wonder Woman. (I know we've heard lots of writers complain about this since the DCnU began but this isn't a DCnU thing - I remember it happening to Dwayne McDuffie a lot during his man-handled Justice League of America run. IMO this is definitely just a hallmark of Dan Didiot and his corporate overlords' managerial style.)
* George says he gets a lot of pleasure out of seeing cosplayers now and loves the creativity that some fans bring to it. He said he apologizes for some of the extremely difficult to cosplay costumes he's created over the years!
* Money-wise, George said he's only drawn one cover this year but has already made three figures in royalties. He said he especially wanted to thank all those people buying computer games with his characters in them. Apparently that's where the money is now.

I think that's about all I can remember. If I remember any more I'll post it. George was a really lovely guy and an animated and engaging speaker, and hearing him talk about all this stuff was a real thrill. I definitely recommend attending one of his panels if you've never done so before.

P.S. Might this thread be more appropriate in Gym'll's?

^ Please ignore my lack of comprehension. I thought we were in the Anywhere Machine for some reason.

Thanks for the insights, guys. Maybe we all should be easing off Levitz over in the Legion forum then... I'll post a link to this thread in those threads.

Just so I'm sure what you're saying, are you saying that when Perez/Wolfman wrote TT there was NO company control? No requirement to be consistent with the powers and personalities of the established characters? I believe that's the only thing I described in my post about the process.

If so, I'm amazed we got any coherent stories at all. Writers would write the stories and characters they most wanted to write whether it had to do with the actual characters used or not. We in Legion Fandom have erupted with wordy violence at poorly depicted Legionnaires. I can't see that process working any better than what it has become.

As for the editorial heavy-handiness the process has apparently become, it might work for a Star Wars movie with Lucas dangling the creators like puppets in order to protect HIS vision but I think we're all agreed, turning comics writing into an outsource job is a poor idea and would explain a lot to me about the uninteresting and poorly paced stories we've been getting.

In short: a LOT is lost with that way of doing business but there appears to be enough support to help those artists willing to work independently. Some artists will get lost in that process but the Perezes of the world will not be amongst them. If he wants to continue to write characters and stories of HIS creation, I'm sure he'll have an instant fan following.

Artists with a lot fewer resources than Perez have been successful working independently. I look forward to what he will bring.

BB, I'm sure there was some company control. I mean, we didn't get graphic sex acts or bullet holes through little kids head's. But what he was saying is that the editorial process, the ghost writer process which basically uses their name but rewrites their work (which would easily cause me to go apeshit. Some hack reworking my stuff and my name is on it? Oh hell no!) had gotten so pervasive that it was not an enjoyable work environment. He didn't use those words, but that was the gist that I got.

And yeah, I guess I might try out Boom studios as well. Maybe we'll get more Sachs and Violenz.

Yep, that's what I read too.

That's pretty much what I got out of it also.

I'm just saying I don't think it is an unusual environment in the entertainment industry. Heck, it wasn't an unusual environment in the Engineering business. Work written by one or by many is triaged, vetted, edited... with the goal that the whole of the work reflects corporate desires and needs. It's not at all unusual for many people to write their portions separately and to have those merged in a hopefully coherent way by third parties.

I'd be curious to understand how these artists didn't know this was going to happen going in to the contract. There was a communications breakdown somewhere or maybe the artists were hearing but not understanding until after they had the full experience.


Given the general failure of DC movies (or perhaps that is only my impression), it surprises me that they will let the movie wag the comic. In Marvel's case, it might be more understandable.

BB, I think what George Perez is trying to say is that the process has gotten a lot more restrictive now than with how it was back in 1985 or so. I'msure there was already some of that editorial oversight back then. Remember the Phoenix storyline, where Jim Shooter insisted that Jean must die in the end? Even then, Shooter took the issue directly to the writers and they knew exactly what would come out in print. Seems to me that (based on what Perez has been saying) things are a lot worse now.

Yeah, I think I've said the same in the last three posts.

I'm also saying I don't think the change in the process that has occurred in comics is all that unusual. As "projects" get big, writing follows a corporate method. That happens most anywhere.

I'm wondering out-loud where the communication breakdown occurred. How did it come to a situation in which the artists accepted a contract and did not understand that their work was perhaps going to be heavily edited to be sure to conform to a bigger picture.

I'm wondering if clear directions were not given by management as to what was to be written, within what guidelines or were directions given and perhaps being such an unusual process to the comics writers, not understood or maybe even ignored.

It's not as if this happened to only one artist. I would have thought they would have begun to catch on BEFORE accepting the contract.

I get what you're saying now. Perhaps what I failed to appreciate was that this change probably wouldn't have been a gradual one. These artists (and writers, I suppose) seemed to be pretty surprised by all the oversight, and you're wondering why they were that surprised.

I'm not too surprised that there was a communications breakdown. It could have been a poorly-written contract with a lot of fine print; maybe they weren't oriented properly because the corporate people thought they already knew what to expect. Maybe the artists haven't been talking to each other. Something else else that Perez told Blacula helps support this:



So Giffen was surprised himself even though he and Perez had talked before Giffen's stint. Maybe it's only some books which get this level of treatment; maybe the change happened in a matter of months and caught most artists by surprise. You're right in that the artists shouldn't have been surprised by the changes; I have a hunch the fault may really lie with corporate.

"hunch the fault may really lie with corporate"

Buck stops there regardless. I can see how it might have taken the artists a bit to "catch-on." They're not all under one building, so much production done by computer and email.... There just might not be as much interaction amongst the various artists as we might expect in a cubicle office.

Management (Didio,...) may be doing what the corporate Directors want in the way of story development but sounds like they are still getting their feet wet as for how to coordinate?

Might as well have a computer write Superman.

Sorry BB. I thought you were implying in your post earlier that since editors have always existed, the level of their interference is no different now.

I think from what we've heard from George and the many other writers that have quit DC in disgust in recent years, not to mention from our own eyes as the unfortunate consumers of these products, the amount of heavy-handed editorial interference at DC is at unprecedented levels right now.

And it unfortunately seems like the role of editors has changed a lot now too. Long gone are the days when editors served to guide a creator's vision (while protecting the property). Now it seems like editors just dictate the creative process while debasing the property for whatever the latest corporate fad is - heroes who die, heroes who kill, realism trumping escapism, etc.

P.S. I just remembered something else Perez said -

* The story that became 'Who is Wonder Girl' in The New Titans #50 or so was originally supposed to be the first ever Titans graphic novel. It got turned into an arc of the series because they realized they would have had to have Donna Troy treading water for all that time before the GN came out. I had always wondered why Perez' already amazing art seemed to reach a new level just in that book.

I wouldn't be surprised. I see that in the corporate world now all the time. Just because e-mail and celphones keep us all connected, doesn't mean people use these modes of communicaton properly. And people misinterpret things all the time (like how I didn't catch your full message at first).

What seems to be lacking now is proper two-way dialogue between writers/artists and editors. Editors should have a role in both protecting the property and ensuring that stories told are good and make sense!

I sort of disagree with this point. Comics have been around for more than seven decades and it's only now, when sales are at their almost lowest of all time, that we start to see all this heavy-handed editorial interference? And it's because the projects are bigger? There's no doubt that comics are a profitable source of ideas for Hollywood right now but not even that point's new. Superman and Batman have been extremely profitable and culturally important properties across all mediums since the moment they were created.

IMO there is a cultural management problem at DC right now that is specific to that company because of the people in place there and that can't be blamed on just being a sign of the times or whatever.