Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Pre Crisis Continuity.

I would say you are correct RE: copyright vs trademark.

Good points backatcha, Kent.

I guess what it boils down to -- if we really want to delve deeply into this topic -- is what do we consider canon? The stories as they were originally published or altered reprints? There are obvious problems with both approaches.

Maybe I'm dense or just really tired, but I don't follow how Gim being present in Adv. 247 (altered reprints) means that Supergirl joined first. According to most membership lists (certainly the one in AWODCC # 9), Gim joined before either of the super-cousins. (This is also supported by LSH # 295, as you mentioned.) This means he was certainly present regardless of which of them joined first.

(I don't have Secrets handy but will look it up when I have the chance.)

You raise an excellent point about the number of anonymous Legionnaires in Adv. 247. One might suppose that some could have been applicants who hadn't passed the final tests of membership, but who showed promise and were therefore allowed to watch the history-making induction of Superboy.

Prior to #295, I'd never heard of any list putting Gim prior to either cousin. I do not have AWODCC 9, nor do I know it to be canon.

"The Three Super-Heroes" is purportedly a membership try-out pitting Cham, Lyle, Reep and Kara against each other for a spot in Legion membership, implying none of them were yet members. Secrets confirms this, but #295 contradicts it.

For the two to be reconciled, I admittedly assume that Gim, Lyle and Reep were honorary/conditional members prior to "The Three Super-Heroes," thus maintaining at least some honesty in Kara's competition.

If one or all already were members, then only Kara was being tested, and that not only makes the Legion seem dishonest, but her dismissal all the more cruel; why not just defer her membership until the Red K wears off? Even if it was a Silver Age-ish prank (not unlike Kal's induction), it lacks the good-sport resolution, forgiveness and moving on (let alone later references back to it).

For Gim to be a member at Kal's induction and for him to later pretend to not be a member seems even more dishonest, and perhaps one less likely to succeed: If Kara did win her trial and later found out it was a sham, I'm sure in the aforementioned good Silver Age sportsmanship they'd blow it off, but there should at least have been some acknowledgement. For the deception to continue and be considered official LSH history all the way to RJ's illness in the early 80s (the Secrets mini) makes it seem like a long-term lie, not a short-term prank.

I see your point about Gim. The problem is that Secrets contradicts or at least misinterprets "The Three Super-Heroes," as reprinted in volume one of Showcase Presents.

In the earlier story, Cham, Gim, and Lyle are introduced as Legionnaires, not applicants. "Now meet other club members," Cos tells Supergirl, referring to the above three (p. 41 of Showcase Presents). On the next page, Saturn Girl tells Kara, "If you can perfom a super-feat more spectacular than your competing applicants have already staged, we'll vote you in!" These "competing applicants" are not identified, nor are they shown performing their feats. However, there is no indication that Imra is referring to Gim, Cham, and Lyle.

(Since Supergirl was not admitted in this story, it leaves us with the conclusion that the Legion admitted no new members that day!)

Secrets, however, says the three were applicants and that Cham was admitted in Kara's stead. This suggests that Cham joined before Gim and Lyle, yet AWODCC #9 says that Gim and Cham joined on the same day. (One might suppose that Gim joined later that day, if the Legion felt like bending their rules about admitting only one applicant at a time.)

Is AWODCC #9 canon? Well, it was published by DC (as opposed to another company licensing material from DC), so I suppose that makes it as canonical as possible. Perhaps another point in its favors is that Paul Levitz was involved as managing editor, along with Carl Gafford.

According to THE OFFICIAL LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES INDEX #1 (Dec 1986), the Legionnaire is Star Boy by the process of elimination.

Here's the panel that started the Supergirl joined before Superboy controversy -

I'm loving this discussion and I miss the real *history* that this book used to have... <choke>

HWW, I haven't read "The Three Super-Heroes" lately, so I may have been misremembering it. Other on-line synopses of the story seem to concur with you.

I admit I've been long accustomed to Supergirl-first being canon (ever since Secrets came out, if not slightly before), and only recently have been exposed to the Kal-first theory.

I've read Gary's clip several times, but fail to see how it supports either theory.

Which clip? The one I just posted is the scene that clearly depicts Brainiac 5 at the ceremony, thus sealing the deal about Kara joining first.

To add fuel to the fire, "The Three Super-Heroes" is one of the stories which infamously indentifies the three founders as children of the original Legionnaires. It's clear that the intent of the original creators was to have Cham, Colossal Boy, and Invisible Kid become members of a subsequent generation of Legionnaires, so their presence at the time of Adv. 247 was moot from the creators' perspective.

Gary -- thanks for pointing out that Star Boy must have been the Legionnaire admitted in Supergirl's stead. That certainly fits in with everything else we've learned.

Ah. I was looking for something in the wording; I wasn't even looking at the lineup. That explains it.

Actually, yesterday I was going to post a long, convoluted theory as to why the Legion told Kara this; it was part of a grand Kara-first explanation that fell apart once I realized many of the arguments I was going to present could be used for Kal-first, too, so I didn't bother.

The basic thrust of the "soft lie" was (based upon my admittedly faulty recollection of the story) that Kara was recounting Kal's first encounter with the Legion (which by Kara-first theory would have been in the Legionnaires' own future), so Imra (I think she was the one making the "children of..." comment?) (or else whoever said it) blurted that out off the top of her head to prevent Kara from accidentally revealing any more of their future. If the Legion was meeting Kara first, it might not have occurred to them that they'd meet a Kara who already knew all about it from Kal, who they hadn't met yet!

And if adult Kal's memories of Supergirl's membership in the Legion came back to him once he'd met Kara in his own time, he would have known enough only to tell her very little; thus her desription of the Leguion only refers to his first meeting with them (of course at this time those stories hadn't been written yet, so I am retro-fitting the situation of the time into later continuity).

Just a couple of points:

I'm pretty enamored of the Kal-joins-as-honorary-member-before-Kara-and-full-member-after-her theory.

In retrospect, I would've preferred they'd left Kara as a member of a later generation of Legionnaires (not necessarily the "children" of the originals, but at least the protegees).

When this thread started, I was neutral about either perspective, but the more I've written and thought about it, the more I've come to be a Kal-firster, as well.

It makes so much more sense that the Legion would contact him first. If a presidential historian could travel through time, whom would he or she likely visit first, George Washington or John Adams? Unless the historian is a Federalist at heart, the answer would probably be Washington – father of the country, war hero, and paragon who set the standard for all other presidents. This is equivalent to what Superboy represented to the Legion. This does not take anything a way from Supergirl, who was a significant hero in her own right – but Superman was Superman.

When the Legion approached Kara – whether they identified themselves as their own children or not – they were banking on the assumption that she would know who they were. This makes sense only if they had visited Kal first.

Some have suggested that the Legion was shy about approaching Kal, so they opted to visit his less-intimidating cousin first. This actually seems reasonable – I recall that even the Beatles were terrified of performing live after they’d been off the road for awhile – but, taken by itself, it’s a thin reason to hang a theory upon.

So, the only really compelling evidence for Kara-first, it seems, is Brainy’s depiction at Kal’s induction ceremony. There could be several ways to explain this. Since the flashback is told from Saturn Girl’s perspective, maybe she was so caught up in her reelection as leader that she mis-remembered who was present (unlikely, but possible). Perhaps Brainy was an invited guest. (It’s been established, I believe, that the Legion already knew him through his work with the Time Institute.) (Also unlikely, but possible.)

But the most likely theory is the one already stated: that Superboy was admitted first as an honorary member and then later as a full member. This makes sense as Superboy, a resident of the 20th century, was not available for most Legion missions until time travel (or his own ability to travel through time) had been perfected. It also explains why Gim, Cham, and Lyle were not honorary members. The Legion bestowed honorary membership only upon people they admired but who otherwise didn’t qualify for full membership (Pete Ross, Jimmy Olsen, Kid Psycho). Gim, Cham, and Lyle, so far as we know, did not meet that criterion.

All of this is moot, of course. Later writers and editors blunderingly accepted the Kara-first theory – one of a number of contradictions between the Silver Age and later eras that cannot easily be explained. (Another example: Saturn Girl taking credit for Superboy’s post-hypnotic suggestion that caused him to forget anything he learned about his future; originally, this was performed by Supergirl.) As a result, Brainy is shown to be a pre-Kal member in at least one other story (Superboy # 204), creating even more basis for confusion and discussion.

Hmmm

You got me to thinking that TMK did tribute to this idea with the origin story for Laurel Gand. She was approached by the girls and joined quite a bit before Valor was brought out of the Phantom Zone. One more instance of Laurel mirroring Kara.

I just loved Laurel, I miss her terribly. She was my favorite old-is-new-again 5yg Legionnaire.