Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes The Essence of the Legion

The recent rumored changes to the Legion's membership got me thinking...

What exactly is the essence of the Legion? What elements should remain unchanged so that even if everything else changes, you can accept whatever remains as a genuine Legion of Super-Heroes?

Is it the large cast of characters?
The variety of super-powers, ranging from the underestimated to the overpowering?
Is it the sense of camaraderie and friendship?
Is it the team's core values of preserving life and being a beacon of hope and unity?
How about the futuristic setting and technology?
Are there certain key members who must remain on the team or all bets are off?
Do you need a certain proportion of members (e.g. no less than 1/3 of the team is female; at least two non-humanoid members)?
Does there have to be an upside-down rocket ship? Legion tryouts? Silly rejects? Chillingly evil villains? Weird worlds?

It's got me thinking about what I would need, but I'm not ready to answer just quite yet.

Thanks for starting this thread! I've been meaning to start a similar thread for about a week, but haven't been able to get my thoughts together. Hopefully this will help me put them together!

Great minds think alike I also thought it would be easier to think about this, but am having trouble articulating exactly what it is that makes the Legion a Legion.

I think if its called Legion then it needs a large cast. that's just how it should be.(But they should learn to rotate the cast better.)

It should stay in the future! that is def a core essence of the Legion.

Also that they are each from different planets (Which i want more exploration of! As well as more alien/non-humanoid members.)

I think the relationships in the Legion need to be fleshed out more and we need to see more of it. especially if we the reader are supposed to believe that they've been together for years.

For me the essence of the Legion is its diversity. By that I don't mean just an assortment of races and colours (not that that isn't important) but the range of powers as well.

With a cast the size of the Legion you can tell any sort if story and it would not seem out of place.

Need a bunch of tanks to face down Darkseid again? Fine you have the Els and Jo

Infiltrate the Dark Circle? Espionage Squad

Weird crazy happenstance? Brainy and his science buddies

Nice relaxed relationship tale? No shortage of proper couples

But it's not just those groupings, you can easily mix and match any combination of characters from any group and get some interesting events.

Look at the cast of Lord Romdurs Castle for an example. Nothing really links Sun Boy (RIP), Phantom Girl, Chameleon Boy, Star Boy and Projectra yet the team did not see peculiar or forced in anyway which is something you cannot always say about the JLA, Avengers or really many other teams.

This, to some degree, is due to the lack of 'names' in the team who tend to overpower the rest of the cast. As it is unlikely here will ever be a Matter Eater Lad movie we never have to worry about Tenzil being rammed down our throats to sell a few more tickets or tie-in merchandise; which is not something that can be said about Moviestar X and their amazing band of equally marketable heroes.

And it is this that helps the team (and the teams within the team) seem so realistic and believable.

As I seem to be going on a bit I will bring to a close with this. What is the essence of the Legion? For me it is everything on your list and a whole lot more besides.

^ I like what stuorstew said.

I see two main factors in *my* preferred Legion tales;

1) Youthful optimism and a sense of hope (there's a future, and it's filled with wonders, some of them scary and dangerous, but all of them awesome in their own way) and

2) Strength through diversity (many worlds and powers represented, even built into the code barring applicants who don't bring anything new to the table, rather than just recruit a bunch of Krypto-Daxamites for raw power).

It *could* be done with a smaller team, if the membership was selected right (no Mon-El, no Wildfire, none of the really heavy hitters). I don't think it could be done in the Earth 1 21st century, which has trended towards grimdark for quite some time now.

Indeed, it's probably safe to say that the Legion property has only suffered from any attempt to more tightly tie it into events going on in the 20th/21st century continuity, and that it would only be strengthened by being explicitly set in a *potential* future, and not necessarily the set-in-stone future of the current DCU (which changes with bewildering regularity anyway...).

Matter-Eater Lad is the essence of the Legion, just as the Martian Manhunter is the essence of the Justice League.

Sure, you can have the books without them, but it just won't be the same.

It's hard to describe, but for me the Legion isn't the Legion unless it feels right. For instance, the Threeboot didn't feel like Legion to me because it was too far outside their original message. The Legion isn't about rebellious teenagers, the Legion is about people coming together from all over the galaxy to protect peace and promote unity. THAT'S LEGION. But I guess if I had to put my fingers on anything specific...

1: At least 12 characters, otherwise it just feels like a random super-hero team. The Avengers should never have as many members as the Legion.

2: It should be hopeful and always set in the future. The Legion's charm is that I get to see this bright, hopeful future with amazing technology and weird aliens and outrageous adventures that create lasting friendships. Despite being an inspiration, the Legion is not about Superman and Wonderwoman and Batman. It's about the Legion. And, as corny as it sounds, these characters are my friends too.

3: It needs a good, silly moment every now and again. I enjoy a little humor, and in the past the Legion has always provided that without having to try too hard.

4: This one's personal, but the Legion isn't the Legion without Brainy. A lot would disagree, but I'd sincerely consider dropping the title if he wasn't in it. He's my favorite.

I guess that's about it! See, DC, it's not THAT hard to please a Legion fan.

For me the most important message of the Legion is unity in diversity (perhaps despite diversity), and the amazing camaraderie and hope that it fosters.

Conflict is well and good, but I'd like to echo Conjure Lass's sentiment about the Threeboot Legion - I didn't like it because of too much infighting. Not saying that everyone should be best friends, but this touches on Stu's note that you could randomly select any half-dozen Legionnaires, put them on a team together and not have it feel forced at all.

Because dang it, when I read the Legion I wanna feel like what Superman felt - even though he'd been a Justice Leaguer for years, the Legionnaires were his childhood friends and they always held a special place in his heart. "No Batman, we weren't crazy - we were LEGION."

Speaking of *ESSENCE...*

I propose the origins of the Justice League should be re-tooled with Super-Dude front and center. ***AND***
that his *PAST* experiences, (in his youth,) with a super-group in the far future heavily influenced the
operations of the League.

^ I like that idea. Ties in well with the "Big Blue Boy Scout" characterization that I personally find very refreshing in Superman.

He could shout "Let's go Leaguers!" from time to time. Would make an LSH/JLA team-up very interesting, with the Legionnaires maybe butting heads with some of the Leaguers with somewhat different views/methods like Batman, Hawkman, Wonder Woman...

Thi is such a hard question to answer.

I think the setting's a big part of the Legion's essence to me. I like the potential of the galactic melting pot that Earth, or at least Metropolis, has become. A multitude of species coexisting, becoming friends, butting heads- that's the background that should always come through. And not just in politically-tinged stories or in villains that fight the homogenizing of UP societies. Alien flora and fauna, architecture and art should thrive beside the familiar.

Ideas that percolate now grow towards their fulfillment.

And blue-skinned alien chicks kicking butt alongside chest-bearing guys with sideburns.

I would say the two big things that are needed for the Legion are:

* the superhero ideals. Compassion, integrety, decisiveness and boldness.

* the future setting--one where there are hundreds if not thousands of alien races all over the universe, with even more just waiting to be explored.

The cast...I'd say it's pretty important because of what someone said, the big cast allows you to tell different stories, but in terms of an individual Legion story, you don't need the ENTIRE roster for it to work.

Some thoughts:

1) The Legion is set in the future. But not just any future; it is important that it is a future whose nature is profoundly-shaped by the legacy of the super-heroes of the present day, especially Superman. There is an interesting reciprocal relationship between the Legion and Supes, as their role in his life is to help show him a future that he can help inspire. This, of course, is not to say that their aren't major problems in the Legion's time or in the intervening centuries, but the overall feel should be one in which the ideals of Superman have had an impact on the world of the future.

2) The Legion travels in space, in time, and in other dimensions. Space travel should be a regular, given feature of the Legion's world. The Legion should journey to crazy, farout sci fi worlds where giant robots continue to function in the absence of their builders or the dominant lifeform is sapient smoke.

Time travel is less frequent, and there should be rules about how it works, and there should only be limited access to it, but it is certainly a key bit of Legion technology. I'd actually like to see it used more in situations where they travel to times other than the present day/Superboy's time, though.

Travel to parallel dimensions/other realities is perhaps even less frequent than time travel, and perhaps even more experimental, but it should be there.

3) The Legion has a large cast, of members from different worlds, each with a unique power that they contribute to the team. It is not important to me that any individual member be present in the current lineup (I'd be happy with a "next generation" scenario, in which all of the "classic" Legionnaire have retired, for example), though if they completely retconned out the Adventure era cast as having never existed, for example, it would be pretty hard to justify it as the Legion.

For me the essence of the Legion is difficult to decide. But if I had to decide....

I think Superman HAS to be from Krypton, be brought up by the Kent's and work in Metropolis with Lois Lane Batman has to be Bruce Wayne, rich orphan.

So to me the Legion has to be

Set in the far future.
Involve space ships and alien planets
Have a large cast of members who have singular (and perhaps not obviously powerful) abilities
Be Super BOYS best friends

Almost everything else is up for grabs.

This is a great, great question.

To me the Legion as a concept is all about this bright optimism for the future, this looking forward; not only is it a book that takes place in a utopian 30th century, but it's about young people of all different backgrounds using their abilities to unite a universe, for the betterment of all. It's very much a statement, and a promise, and a blueprint for going forward.

People tout 'diversity', but that diversity is just an outgrowth of that optimism; that the things that unite will supercede the things that divide us, but that we'll maintain our diversity, our differences, and come together to celebrate them rather than fear them.

The most crucial element of any Legion story is that it look to the future, rather than being bogged down in the past, and the greatest and most common failing of Legion writers is precisely that. Because mainstream superhero comics is, largely, a nostalgia driven industry. More covers are homages than they are unique images, it seems! The most successful writers working in the field today have largely built their careers on looking backwards, not just to continuity but with their characters themselves; Johns' characters, for instance, are all haunted by childhood trauma and familial loss (mother, father, sister, brother, lover, wife, husband, etc).

The Legion doesn't need a big cast, although I think it works best when it has one. It doesn't need big, cosmic stories, although those are my preference.

What the Legion needs is a writer who fearlessly moves forward, who fairly oozes worlds and villains and heroes and dilemma, who kills characters when the story demands it and evolves the status quo as a matter of course. Divorced as the Legion is from any modern continuity, the freedom afforded by the future setting almost DEMANDS to be used, and it is only through this kind of innovation and reinvention that the Legion can distinguish itself in the current market.

This, I feel, was the true failing of something like "Legion of Three Worlds", a Legion story so concerned with looking to the past that it never gave us a vision of the future.

That's a very interesting notion.

One of my favorite writers, Kurt Busiek, is pretty much all about dusting off elements from past stories and refreshing them / retelling them. Many other fantastic stories have involved creators grabbing up abandoned plot arcs or forgotten characters or forgotten story elements from the history of whatever comic continuity they are in and fashion stuff like the revitalization of the Swamp Thing, or the secret of the Thunderbolts, or even the original conceit for the Watchmen (meant to star characters like the Peacemaker and Captain Atom).

Geoff Johns has also stepped backwards a bit, rescuing Barry Allen and Hal Jordan (and now Vibe?) from up to 25 years of being dead or replaced by Wally and Kyle, bringing back the characters from his own childhood, and sweeping away the changes he didn't like.

The Legion has, IMO, suffered from this sort of thing, with both writers and fans sometimes calling for retelling of past tales, such as the Legion founding, or 'another Great Darkness saga,' or yet another Universo takes over the Earth and outlaws the Legion story, or, oh look, *another* first meeting with the Fatal Five.

Fresh new stories should be key. Retelling the same old stories falls into the trap of both changing what has come before, such as with Timber Wolf's fairly lame new origins, which is *vastly* inferior to his *cartoon* origin, IMO, let alone his whacky 'thought I was an android' Silver Age origin, but also 'looking to the past' instead of to the future.

All too often, IMO, these 'retellings' take more away from the Legion than they add to it.

Well said, Desaad.

Agree 100%. The Legion may celebrate the past, but can never be bogged down by it.

I think we're talking about slight different things here, or at least I see a distinction.

Alan Moore's reinvention of "Swamp Thing" is exactly how these things should be done, IMHO. What Moore did there was no reboot the character, nor focus on old hoary pieces of continuity from Swamp Thing's past, but rather he took the core essence of the character - this monster, this horror - and he made it his own, creating whole worlds (literally), powers, villains...everything. This method almost always yields the best results, if the author in question has the skills for it. Grant Morrison did something similar with Doom Patrol (weird group of deformed outcasts dealing with the weird), Peter Milligan did the same with Human Target and Shade the Changing Man (both concerned with malleable identity), etc.

I don't see anything inherently backward in Johns taking up Hal Jordan or Barry Allen again. Quite the contrary, those were NEW story directions (potentially), after both Kyle and Wally had grown a little staid. A change needed to be made, and choosing Hal Jordan and Barry Allen over Kyle and Wally was a fine one, so long as the stories that were born of those changes were new and powerful. Johns DID that with Green Lantern, but stopped short; he created his Emotional Spectrum Corps (a concept certainly strong enough for an arc or two) but was content to rest on those laurels (stretching the idea beyond all reason, into the monotonous). He didn't do that with Barry, and his take never really got off the ground as a result. He couched BOTH of their character arcs, though, in the loss of parental figures (father for Hal, mother for Barry), a trope which has grown repetitive over the half decade plus.

Veering back on track, I see nothing wrong with the resurrection of the most identifiable Legion. In fact, I would argue that the Reboots were fundmentally wrongheaded in the same way that telling the Legion's origin story again is fundamentally wrongheaded -- it's the same damn thing, over and over again. Everyone wants to tell the definitive origin of this, or that, but it's DULL because it's a story that has been told - in various ways, with minute differences - 5 or 6 times already.

Rather than trying to give readers an in through such cheap gimmicks, which ultimately only confuse them more (but wait, why is everything so DIFFERENT when I go back to check out these characters that have captured my interest? Uh, did you say clones? Alternate timelines? What's a Time Trapper? Pre-zwhatnow?) just take what you have and go FORWARD.

There is a bunch of past continuity? DON'T REFERENCE IT. Make sure your run stands on its own. Introduce the characters all as if it was our very first time reading them at the start of your run. Introduce readers to various bits of continuity as it becomes relevant, and make sure it actually IS relevant -- it doesn't matter that Brainiac 5 loves Supergirl if you don't have a Brainiac 5/Supergirl love story in mind. That Mon-El was in the Phantom Zone is irrelevant unless you're actually going to bother to explore the psychology of what that did to him. And if you are, you damn well better tell us about it.

Create new characters, new heroes. Retire old ones when it feels right, or ignore them if you don't have anything to say about them -- a future writer will pick them up if they feel like it.

Create new villains, or revamp old villains to the point that they FEEL new. You don't need to reference every past dealing with a character if he comes up again -- a simple "This Hunter...he's nothing like who we faced before!" will suffice. Readers can go back and check out past appearances if they want, but aren't obliged to because you've done something very different (in the same way that Alan Moore's Arcane was a different animal entirely from any we had seen before).

The lack of imagination or laziness or frankly lack of judgement of creators is surprising, even creators who I respect IMMENSELY. I think Mark Waid has an incredible understanding of what makes stories work or not work, even if the books he himself puts out can be variable (for me). As an editor, he seems impeccable. So why on gods earth did he feel the need to reboot the Legion YET AGAIN when he took over the title, when a far more elegant, less heavy handed solution was so obvious, and could have done everything he wanted without alienating anyone?



For what it's worth, this doesn't seem to be another 'first' meeting, as they specifically reference the Fatal Five and that the Fatal Five has formed in the past; this is the first Post-52 meeting, and they're going about it the right way so far as I can tell. There seems to be some real effort to evolve, change and generally re-imagine some of the characters. Tharok, for instance, seems completely different.

I'm fine with more "Fatal Five" stories. I just don't want them to be identical to the Fatal Five stories we already HAVE (and yes, I'd like some mix of new and old villains). I hate to invoke Grant Morrison again, but his "JLA" might serve as another reference point; yes, we got Starro, we got The Key (!), we got the Injustice League, we got the White Martians, we even got the Demons Three -- but we got them in completely different forms and ways, and interspersed we also got Prometheus, Asmodel and the Bull Host Angels, Mageddon, the Ultra-Marine Corps, Solaris/the Hourman Virus...some of it was technically old, some of it was completely new, but it ALL felt FRESH and that's what I want on the Legion.



Phew. Sorry for the rambling, everyone. To sum it up, I could probably have simply said "Agreed.".

Thank you kindly, sir.

The Essence to me is:

Large cast set in the 30th/31st Century.

The three founders.

Each member is unique, no duplications - otherwise it would be telepaths and pre-cogs leading teams of Daxamites with the odd other like Element Lad or Chameleon Boy thrown in all under the control of Brainiac 5. Which actually doesn't sound bad for an elite military group but it's not the Legion.

Hope. The future may be dark, weird, unexpected and outrageous but there is hope. These kids embody it.

Soap opera elements - we need to know what these people do on their down time, that feeds into the futuristic setting. Some get on with each other, some don't. The weird and wonderful cultures that could feed into this hasn't really been explored (other than Cos slapping Alya because it was the Braalian hit a woman day).

The try-outs.

I agree on the weird, wonderful cultures. This helps cement the Legion as a successful experiment in unifying a diverse galaxy, and also lets us really get to know these characters in all their unique differences.

I blogged about this a while ago here, but basically I summed it up in four things:

1. Every hero, no matter whether their powers seem over- or underwhelming, has a contribution to make. This goes along with the large cast idea which has been mentioned. What makes the Legion formidable isn't that everyone is super-powerful, it's that there is a huge cast with diverse powers.
2. The vast science fiction canvas that the series is painted on
3. The fact that the series, for the most part, is disconnected to the rest of DC continuity, which is really what made all the soap operatics and the development of the rich history of the series possible.
4. The sense of hope and heroism that the team represents

I didn't hate the Threeboot, but it was harder to connect to as it really lost both #3 and #4.

I don't know if I'd call this defining for me, but I also mentioned in that post the fact that in most iterations of the Legion, they are celebrities. It is an honor to be part of the Legion of Super-Heroes. The only times when this has not been true have been when the stories have specifically worked against this - during Five Years Later, Legion of the Run, the beginning of the Retroboot, or times like that when the writers have been putting the Legion through their paces by taking away their reputation. I think that ties into the whole thing of optimism and hope for the future.