Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Adventure Comics starring the Legion of Super-Heroes

Question i n the DC Unverse panel at NYCC

- What's the future of the Legion or the different versions of the Legion? Read the Superman books and "Adventure Comics. "

veryvery: I have at least 24 years of quite intense DC readership. Moreover, I study the medium academically from the point of view of business, So, I do think I have a bit more background on the trials of the medium and a bit more background on DC than you do - which is NOT a pun on you, but simply the reason you cannot accuse me of being close-minded or anything like that.

As for the Legion being third-stringers, it's all based on facts:

1) DC Editorial is very clear that Adventure Comics will feature multiple characters (apparently among them, LSH) but it will feature prominently ONE. If you add Kon-El as the major character from ADV #0, and the search for Lex DNA on L3W, it's clear where this is headed. Superboy will be the major character on ADV.

2) There is NO Legion on the cover of Adventure Comics. There's Starman, as conceived on JSA, not on Legion. And that's it. Not even pundists of 5YG can say that of Giffen's gigantic work on the legend.

3) L3W is more worried about Superboy-Prime and the future of Flash and GL than the Legion. They are stand-bys to the real action: the return of Kon-El and Impulse, XS and maybe a clean-up on the various Legions around. Maybe.

1) i think it's going to be superboy. personally? i think it's going to be a different superboy form conner.

futhremore, superboy+thelegion does not mean "superboy is the focus". consider what the OTHER issues that were "supergirl+legion" and "superboy+legion" ,if i remember correctly those issues were.... NOT ALL ABOUT THE SUPERS. at all. again, they are practically background noise.

2)the legion will not be fully in the comic until JUNE. JUNE. the rest is a prologue-y arc thing, done, very... very obviously, because L03W needs to finish first.

3)i've already argued this point, that the primes, the supers, the gls, and the flashes are all subordinate to the direction of the legion. through the careful manipulation of the JLA and the JSA, they just brought a FLASH back to life. how is that NOT impressive?

i mean, i would LOVE 5 issues of the legion sitting around talking about themselves in deep, introspective terms, but they have crazy bad guys to fight. so they are fighting them.

ricardo: dude, i don't care how long you've been a fan. 24 years means nothing. it just doesn't. other people on this board are just as old as you and have even more fan years under their belt that don't have the same opinion as you, therefore there is no correlation between fan years and "rightness". at all. furthermore, i have actual experience in the field of comics. i have created comics, i have edited comics, i have worked conventions, i draw for a living. does that mean i'm right in everything i say? absolutely not. but it does mean that you can't try to overrule everything i say with "i'm older", because it means nothing. it would be really, really awesome if you only tried with me on the things i'm saying rather than personal attack concerning what you think you know about me. i don't know what your problem is with me, but ever since i've gotten to this board, you've seen the need to address me and my background personally, and you need to stop.

Adventure Comics starts in June. So it is obvious that LSH will not be the main character there, but one more. And since it is not even on the cover (even Krypto is), that means a lot to me, but clearly not to you. Great to see your optimism.

As for the rest of your arguments, I'd rather take them privately. I just want to be clear I have NOTHING against you and I NEVER said that from being older I was "right", but just that I have been exposed to more material and saw many more changes to Legion of Super-Heroes than you did. In fact, you had accused ME of being prejudiced against Johns, which was never the case. But so far, my predictions have been more accurate than yours. So, I am not an optimist.

Ah-ha! I KNEW it!!!

Sanford Greene has drawn issues of both LSH31C and LSH v5.

--

Where I stand on the whole status-of-the-Legion-in-Adventure thing...

I don't see Adventure as a Legion book, primarily. I think it's more exposure for the post-FC:L3W Legion, whatever that turns out to look like. I'm sure they'll get their own book eventually, and this is, as has been said, training wheels.

It's probably a pretty smart way for DC to do things: build an audience, build demand.

But I still don't like it.

Jeff Moy drew one issue of Legionnaires prior to Zero Hour, but wasn't the regular artist til after the reboot. And our greatly missed Dark Bamf, Dave Cockrum, did a short sequence near the end of the reboot team also.

And Keith Giffen drew an issue of The Legion towards the end

Also Walter Simonson worked on both pre and post Zero Hour Legions

I remember the Moy and Giffen issues but can someone please remind me which reboot stories Cockrum and Simonson drew?

Simonson drew the story that Paul Levitz wrote for issue 100 of "Legion of Super-Heroes" that set up the story that changed Andromeda, Brainiac 5 and Kinetix. I can't remember what the thing they were investigating was called.

Cockrum drew a sequence that featured Mekt Ranzz that I think came out sometime around when Kon-El joined the reboot team. I don't have the issue number. Al Milgrom inked the pages.

Thanks Matlock. I remember the Simonson one now. It was the story that introduced the Anomaly plot-line. (And Gee - didn't that turn into a winner. )

Still have no recollection of that Cockrum/Mekt one though. Was it in an actual Legion book?

I found the issue number, it was #25 of "The Legion," right about the time the reboot team was starting it's big Darkseid story.

ohhhh, I have that issue. Will have to check it out (although honestly I don't like that story and felt that DnA must have hated Kon the way they wrote him.)

In fact, I remember being real confused when I read that story, because I had the Superboy issues where he first meets the p-zh Legion and then I read Foundations, and I thought that he was meeting yet ANOTHER version of the team since the legion acted like they had never met Kon before (and vice versa). Really threw me, still confuses me really why you wouldn't reference their previous meetings (it's only two stories, not like its a lot of research)

Yeah I meant regular artist...

Technically Keith Giffen could be considered the first if you want to consider the 5YG as a boot...and technically he was the regular artist on 3 different versions of the Legion(Pre Crisis, Immediate Post Crisis and 5YG)but since there is a gray area on where the Legions he drew began and ended, I'd still be willing to give it to Francis because there would be no doubts he's the regular on totally completely different versions of the Legion.

That is if he actually ends up drawing the Legion regularly on this title.

Dan Jurgens could also get an honorable mention here since IIRC he did several issues of Tales of the Legion(might just been covers as I get he and Terry Shoemaker's early work confused) and also did the Titans Legion crossover from a few years ago.

And of course Barry Kitson also was the reg artist on L.E.G.I.O.N and 3Boot, but still...I think Francis is the first one to truly do it as the regular artist on completely different Legions of Superheroes if he does it.

Personally I hope he does as I like his Saturn Girl and Phantom Girl immensely.

Did Sprouse and Immonen both draw both late 5YL and early reboot issues?

I think Sprouse only drew the issue of the main title that spun off the "Legionnaires" title where they got the new costumes and codenames. Immonen drew the first issue of the reboot in the main title (the "0" issue.)

Dan Jurgens also drew the last four issues of "The Legion" prior to the threeboot relaunch.

Yes, it looks like the Legion is going to be second fiddle to the Superman family again. I say again because this is just things going back to how the Legion started out-as a part of the Superman family. And honestly? I'm not that bothered by it. It's not without precedent in Legion history.

When the Legion was part of the Superman family it had its greatest most popular years. I have to grudgingly acknowledge this even though I personally much prefer a Superboy/Man-less Legion and Superboy is easily my least favourite Legionnaire in any Legion incarnation.

This is business that DC is engaged in. Nothing they have tried with the Legion since the first Crisis has worked. The Legion has failed again and again and again. The franchise is now on the verge of extinction. If turning the LSH back into Superman family characters is what it takes to save it. Then hell yes!

Not ideal for us dwindling band of Legion fans. But it makes business sense from DC's perspective. Superman is a character that everyone in the world has heard of. No one except a tiny minority of fans has heard of the Legion. It's not upside down rocket science here guys.

And no doubt history will repeat itself again and the Legion will hopefully in time gain popularity again and step out from Superman's shadow. It's happened twice before in the silver and bronze ages. I've no doubt it will happen again.

And no I was not exactly thrilled when Legion of 3 Worlds abruptly changed from a Legion story into a Green Lantern Corps story. (and this is coming from someone who likes the GLC-man that acronym always makes me think of the Greater London Council!- as well as the Legion)- but darnit it's a Legion story, leave the GLs out of it!

(It's greatly obvious that Johns is far more interested in the Green Lantern Corps than in the Legion. Doesn't bode well I have to admit.)

Sorry, Drura, but 5YL was a hit and it happened after the Crisis. Not only it was a hit, but it was the only time there were 2 completely different all-new Legion books (4 if you consider L.E.G.I.O.N and Valor) at the same time being published.
So much for the "most popular years" argument. Even if you consider Levitz years as the most popular (for being the best selling title with Titans), Legion was far away from Superman books. In fact, Legion was stronger whenever Superboy was second-fiddler to the actual rest of the team.

I hear you. I just feel that the Legion going back to its roots as a part of the Superman family is very much the lesser of two evils. (the greater evil being no Legion at all) Is it good from our perspective as Legion fans? No it's very unsatisfactory.

But this is the cards we have been dealt. Our fandom is a minority one. Most comics fans don't give a damn about the Legion. That's why the outrage over the Legion's recent shoddy treatment by TPTB has been so muted in general comics fandom. Most comics fans don't care about the Legion, it doesn't even appear on their radar. And that's why we have arrived at the situation we now find ourselves in.

I don't think it's a deliberate insult from DC. I think they are just doing business and however much we may wish otherwise they are approaching this from a business perspective, not a fan one. They want profitable comics and if that means marrying a minority franchise with a big money famous franchise that has been in constant publication since 1939 and non comics people the world over has heard of. ~Well it's not hard to see why they find that attractive.

I think it kinda sucks too. But I don't think Didio is rubbing his hands together and going ha ha those Legion fans! I'll show them! It's just business and as such very impersonal. It's very much second best for us fans but that's just the way it is.

I might be a lone crack-pot in thinking this but I'm actually of the position that Dan Didio and DC are putting more care and effort into making the Legion great at this point in time than they have since I started reading comics 20 years ago! Yes, I said it!

Other than giving the threeboot a rushed send-off (and really, how many people actually care about that? the Yay/Nay thread in this forum shows that the vast majority of Legion fans on this board overwhelmingly did not care for that incarnation anyway) DC have got the Legion front and centre in nearly every corner of the DCU right now!

Just look at this list of Legion-related stuff of the past couple of years and then tell me if you can remember a time when there's ever been this much Legion goodness in the DCU -

* DC's #1 writer (Geoff Johns) on a Legion book! Check.
* DC (and the industry)'s #1 artist (George Perez) on a Legion book! Check.
* The Legion starring in their own mini directly connected to THE big DC event book of 2008! Check.
* The Legion having a prominent extended storyline in two of DC's very few Top 20 books of 2008 (JLA & JSA)! Check.
* The Legion also having a prominent extended storyline in DC's oldest and (one of its) highest profile books of 2008 (Action Comics)! Check.
* Two Legionnaires (Karate Kid and Duo Damsel) featured as main players in DC's big weekly event book of 2008 (Countdown)! Check.
* One Legionnaire (Star Boy) as a central member in one of DC's best and most successful ongoings (JSA)! Check.
* That same Legionnaire playing a key part in the next BIG DC event book of 2009 (Blackest Night)! Check.
* Multiple Legion member guest-appearances in various books around the DCU (Action, Superman, R.E.B.E.L.S., Brave and Bold, etc.)! Check.
* As well as multiple Legion villain guest appearances around the DCU too (Mordru, the Fatal Five, the Luck Lords, etc.)! Check.
* Reprinting a key Legion story cheaply and giving it the greatest possible exposure to capture new fans! Check.
* Starring (or support-featuring?) in their own monthly book in 2009 with a super-star creative team on board! Check.

I mean, really, what more do people want?

(P.S. And Yes - obviously the anti-depressants have kicked in since my post of 3 pages ago. )

That is a strong list of pros there Blacula. Thanks for listing them all.

Another item on that *pro* list should be having a popular, current top writer for DC write a special episode of one of the most popular shows on TV at the moment, and have it be focused on the three founding members of the LSH. Check!

I realize it's a different medium altogether but it does add significantly to building the Legion's popularity and gets a new generation excited about this future superhero team.

The problem with Blacula's list is that it is, as Kim Mitchell would say, a lot of feathers and not much chicken.

A year ago at this time, the Legion had two regular ongoing titles and its own cartoon. Now? Some guest appearances and what's left of a miniseries.

I realize that a lot of what's going on is positioning, and I can come up with a perfectly plausible scenario for how it's going to pay off with some kind of triumphant Legion golden age in, I don't know, 2011 or something. But DC hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt from me after they way they drove the threeboot into the bottom of the canal. DC is going to have to show me.

Same here. Didio says that Adventure is going to be a Legion book. Didio says, just kidding, but the first six issues will have a Legion story. Didio says, fooled you again, the Legion may or may not appear at all after the reprint in issue 1...

DC, through Didio, may talk a good fight, but they've lied too much for me to get my hopes up. I'm not Charlie Brown. I'm not going to keep running at the ball, hoping that *this time* Didio was telling the truth.

I'm with you, Matthew E and Set. Too much fluff and no meat. And where there was some meat, Dan decided to leave us just with the bones and told us to "move on".
As much as Blackula brings some positive points, the fact is that Legion will become as important as Jimmy Olsen or Nightwing - maybe less so, since at least the last one does have its magazine. And will not have anything worth reading at least until 2010. Maybe R.E.B.E.L.S. will be the vehicle for the return of the team after all. At least, it kinda seems like from the last hints of Bedard. And that will be my Legion book of 2009.

Good call on the Smallville episode Future King!

I'd actually argue Matthew that the animated Legion series (along with its tie-in comic) of a year ago are just further evidence for my position that DC have been making a concerted effort over the past couple of years to re-invigorate and re-popularize the Legion concept/brand. At a rate/level unseen in decades (if ever before).

The fact that the cartoon failed is certainly no fault of DC's and all the blame of the writers/producers/WB-bigwigs who created such a tepid, unsatisfying show. And its dull, shallow tie-in comic (which had 10 times the 21st Century DC character/property intrusion that Lo3W does) was obviously just a casualty of that cancellation (not helped I'm sure by its poor sales).

I've already mentioned how unmissed the threeboot will be by most fans.

I agree with you that the Legion is being 'positioned' right now and that we're only going to find out what the BIG PLAN for them is later in 2009 or sometime in 2010, but that at least shows to me that DC and Didio are making an effort with the team/concept - and certainly don't hate the team or its fans the way some posters on this board have been alleging.