Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! So Legion will not be dead after L3W

I'd go even further and say TMK made me like the Legion of Super-Heroes from beyond the point of "liking" it. Reading that story made me care for the characters and see what was really about the Legion. As the great Darius study on Teenagers of The Future, TMK was a celebration of what was more unique of the book.

And there is nothing worse than the pap of Reboot Legion, which was a mixture of X-Men and Titans (the Judd Winick version) with a lot of PC-plotting. Even though I agree with Matthew E ponts on the aforementioned book, it simply gave me more reasons to understand why it was such a flat book: its premises were very limited. Unlike TMKs.

Johns is not a fan of subtleties. He is the one who read Giffen's Blue Beetle as a bafoon (which means he probably thinks Watchmen's Night Owl is a wimp). He is also the one who thinks Superboy-Prime is a great villain. And he gave us Infinite Crapis. Hardly subtle works. But this is what sells a lot these days: slugfests with as many characters acting the same way (or very unidimentional).
One can only see the reaction to the subtleties of Shooter's characterizations and the backlash they have had in this forum to see that. There might not be a single trace of self-doubt, of incongruency or fear, unless this is the single characteristic of such character.

Yeah, ranting....

Besides transforming Garth Ranzz into Clint Barton, add to that list Rokk Krinn as a shriveled-up eunuch (I sacrificed my sex life for my pals!!) and Imra Ardeen as the personification of "Truth" (which sends me into uncontrollable fits of laughter whenever I think about it). Johns has completely scrambled the personalities and interpersonal dynamics of the Founders trying to reinvent them as aspects of Superman, it follows the rest of his doppelgangers will ring just as false.

Back to the interview...

I find Dido's assertion "The Legion is a key franchise" about as credible as his claim (see question #2) Manhunter and Blue Beetle are "essential to the DC Universe" .

Weasel words. Compare his response to the cancellations of "Nightwing", "Robin" and "Birds of Prey" (question #1). He wasn't reluctant to go into specifics about where *those* characters are going after their series end.

In view of Didio's appalling track record with the Legion over the past 5 years and the fiasco he's made of the Legion's 50th anniversary, it astounds me there are people still willing to trust him.

I'd assume that's Johns' way of letting the uninitiated know about Wildfire and Dawnstar's relationship. I really hope they haven't had this conversation every day for the last, I don't know, ten years since Superman last saw them.

Reading LOTW #2, I was thinking to myself, "I would be much pleased if this was the Legion we ended up with." But I wonder if I'm not letting myself get caught up in the nostalgia. Pretty soon, it would be, "all right, you've got the band back together, now what?" I don't know if another creative team can keep the level of interest as high, and we know we won't have Perez, at least, and probably not Johns for the new ongoing.

And, man, I hope we don't get the amalgated version.

Ditto that.

Beyonder, all of us have our own favorite eras. There's no need to bash someone else's - they can just as easily bash yours.

This isn't the place for that. It's just as easy to say, "Eras X and Y weren't my favorite" as to call those eras "trash."

okay, then...

The Neoclassic Legion clearly is not 100% Levitz, but it works. I myself would be happy to see it as the main Legion, with or without Superman. I would also like to see the occassional Reboot or Threeboot project (or other variant like the 60sesque Adult Legion that popped up in Sup/Bat a couple years ago), when a decent miniseries/one-shot proposal comes forward.

The only thing to fear in my opinion as a completely new fourboot, but I think the Neoclassic Legion's success in Action would make DC honchos take notice and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

I think the hints of an amalgamated Legion was a red herring. But I admit that would almost certainly be gawdawful.

It depends on how they do it. An amalgamated Legion wouldn't satisfy everybody, but if done right it could be good on its own merits. One of the keys to this, for me, is that the characters keep their memories and personal histories: three Ultra Boys smooshed together into a single Ultra Boy would be terrible.

Principally, you're right.

But believe it or not, Kent: I wasn't trying to "bash" anything, at least not on a conscious level.

It's just that I habor such a strong dislike toward the Levitz, 5YL and ThreeBoot eras, that it's nearly impossible for me to be moderate with my antipathy (or maybe hatred would be a better term) for them.

And my dislike has a reason: I dislike the Levitz era, because he initially warped Legion characterization, to a point that even today, the Legion hasn't recovered from it. Even worse, it was his writing that poisoned Legion continuity, and made it possible in the first place for Giffen to develop what is truly the worst era in the entirety of Legion Mythos.

For 5YL, because it is the devil in the Legion franchise: a foul, dystopic era of ugly, jaded "heroes" stumbling through ugly, dark, jaded worlds, living through dark, jaded and ugly stories that never seemed to end. Of all Legion eras, only 5YL, in all its dirtiness, actually made me be ashamed to be a Legion fan. And calling that particular fossil of the Nineties "mature" doesn't absolve it of its own dirtiness.

And the dirt of 5YL is what makes it inconcilable with a true depiction of the Legion or their world, even more so then the dystopic premise behind 5YL.

After all, the Legion, by definition, is a clean franchise-- unlike Vertigo, for instance. And what sane person would prefer to live in a dark, smelly house in which the dung drips from the walls, if instead he could live in a nice, bright and clean house?

Indeed, calling 5YL "mature" is about as accurate as calling a slash porn about Micky Mouse and Donald Duck "mature". Both 5YL and the Disney porn can't be enjoyed by children, that's for sure; but truly mature comics (or books or movies) can be enjoyed by all ages.
(For starters, compare the clichéd depiction of "Lesbian Lad/Gay Girl" Digby with the mature and meaningful themes of the ReBoot: the Legion existing to bring hope and harmony to a xenophobic universe, Triad's multible personality problem, the Legionnaires being at once both REAL teenagers and yet mature heroes, Kinetix' obvious goodness even though she always was hungering for more power - no one-dimensional cardboard-characterization here! -, Cosmic Boy's complex character - do you really want to compare him to the one-dimensional cipher from 5YL? -, Leviathan, etc.)

And the on-face-of-it-ridiculousness of some aspects of 5YL - most notably "Salu" Gay Girl/Lesbian Lad Digby, Lightning (Proty) Lad and "Sean Erin" - pretty much strips 5YL of whatever little "deeper meaning" 5YL might have claimed to have.

All of this you 5YL fans should consider before you clamor for respect for a piece like 5YL. Don't permit 5YL's hypnotic writing to trap your mind. It was an evil book. In its own way, it was as evil as the Golden Age run of Wonder Woman.

5YL truly was a child of the Nineties. Let it stay there, and let its twisted corpse forever writhe in comic book limbo. If we never again see a series about it, it'll still be far too soon for me. (Though I still want to know just how it fits with the modern continuity.)

As for the ThreeBoot, while I hate it with a passion, in the end, it was merely an period of incredibly bad writing, married to an editorial direction that had nothing to do whatsoever with the Legion. It is nowhere near as toxic to the Legion franchise as Levitz or 5YL. It probably did no lasting damage to the Legion, unlike the "Two Great Enemies".

Uh, no...

Well, we don't know yet that they'll do clones. I wouldn't sweat it...

Okay B-P,CoL,
You say that you weren't trying to bash anything, on a conscious level, but then you launched into an essay about 5YL using the following:

warped
poisoned
worst
devil
foul
dystopic
ugly
jaded
dirtiness
fossil
slash porn
cliched
on-the-face-of-it-ridiculousness
evil
child of the Nineties
twisted corpse

So, how do you think fans of this era will feel when they read this post?

Mmmmm.... strike slash porn. That one was taken out of context. But you *did* use the term within the body of your statement.

"Essay"? More like a detailed Statement...

Anyway, I was describing/evaluating the content/worth of 5YL. But, as usual, whatever my opinions may be, they're certainly very open to debate.

Just what in my evaluation do you disagree with? I'd love to hear your counter-arguments.

Not really. That term was used in comparison to 5YL, so it belongs on your list.

However, you 5YL fans need to know that I'm not "bashing" anything-- I'm specifically bringing up why 5YL is bad for the Legion, for its readers, and for comicdom generally.

You can point out what flaws (if any) in my argument are, but you can't expect me not to say my opinion, just because you don't like them.

If you disagree with it, than you probably got proof why I'm wrong. In that case, post it.

But if you don't have counter-evidence to my evidence, than it seems you know the truth and just don't want it to be brought to the light.

Then you're out of luck.

It's an interesting opinion, when for most of the Legion fans the Levitz era is considered one of the definitive runs on the Legion, and is probably one of the most beloved eras of LSH too... Not to mention the most successful.

I will not even comment on the rest of your post.

Well, "most" Legion fans also call the ACTION COMICS Legion the "original" Legion. I think I'll go with my own opinion, instead. That tends to get sounder results.
After all, it's quality not quantity that counts.

And I understand perfectly that you aren't willing to debate my evaluation of 5YL. I, too, hate losing debates...

Okay, I'll reply inline....

"And my dislike has a reason: I dislike the Levitz era, because he initially warped Legion characterization,"

You say warped, I say enhanced. There are too many characters to talk about how each of them were warped, but my opinion is that each Legionnaire was more generic before Levitz. He made them distinctive.

"to a point that even today, the Legion hasn't recovered from it. Even worse, it was his writing that poisoned Legion continuity, and made it possible in the first place for Giffen to develop what is truly the worst era in the entirety of Legion Mythos."

How did he poison continuity? He responded to what Crisis forced upon the Legion, and created the Pocket Universe to indeed, keep a Superboy involved in Legion history.

"For 5YL, because it is the devil in the Legion franchise: a foul, dystopic era of ugly, jaded "heroes" stumbling through ugly, dark, jaded worlds, living through dark, jaded and ugly stories that never seemed to end."

There's no question that there was darkness, but what we were witnessing was the Legion re-emerging out of that darkness. It was not perfect and a lot of bad things happened, but the characterization was well done and there was true intrigue.

"Of all Legion eras, only 5YL, in all its dirtiness, actually made me be ashamed to be a Legion fan. And calling that particular fossil of the Nineties "mature" doesn't absolve it of its own dirtiness."

How do you define dirtiness? The violence? Do you mean it in a sexual way? I don't understand what it is you're ashamed of.

"And the dirt of 5YL is what makes it inconcilable with a true depiction of the Legion or their world, even more so then the dystopic premise behind 5YL."

What?

"After all, the Legion, by definition, is a clean franchise-- unlike Vertigo, for instance. And what sane person would prefer to live in a dark, smelly house in which the dung drips from the walls, if instead he could live in a nice, bright and clean house?"

I just don't get it? Where was this dung you're talking about? Yes, the 30th century faced some terrible disasters. The Legion disbanded and had to adapt. The Dominators did a lot of terrible things. It was interesting to see how the good people would get out of it.

"Indeed, calling 5YL "mature" is about as accurate as calling a slash porn about Micky Mouse and Donald Duck "mature". Both 5YL and the Disney porn can't be enjoyed by children, that's for sure; but truly mature comics (or books or movies) can be enjoyed by all ages."

Maybe I don't know what this "mature" label you're talking about is. Did DC label the Legion comic as a "mature" series?

"(For starters, compare the clichéd depiction of "Lesbian Lad/Gay Girl" Digby with the mature and meaningful themes of the ReBoot:"

It seems to me that there has been a lot of praise for Vi's sexuality being depicted very subtle. On the contrary, some thought it was too vague. She was tough and had short hair. She'd been through a lot by that point. It may appear cliched on the surface, but anyone who knows the Salu Digby character could be proud that she emerged from everything strong and capable.

" the Legion existing to bring hope and harmony to a xenophobic universe,"

The original Legion was not all that different. Maybe more of a focus on crimefighting than your description.

" Triad's multible personality problem,"

Triad was pretty darn well written in the reboot, but preboot Lu had a lot of character too, and in later 5YL stories, had an interesting sub-plot happening.

"the Legionnaires being at once both REAL teenagers and yet mature heroes,"

SW6 Legionnaires were like that, too.

"Kinetix' obvious goodness even though she always was hungering for more power - no one-dimensional cardboard-characterization here! -,"

They wrecked her by turning her into a blank slate, then a zombie thing and then a robot thing.
I actually miss the fun, magical young Zoe.

"Cosmic Boy's complex character - do you really want to compare him to the one-dimensional cipher from 5YL? -,"

See, the thing is, the 5YL Legionnaires had both all of their history plus their then characterization. Cos was admired because he lost his power, but he still personified what it meant to be a Legionnaire. His quiet negotiation with Mordru is now legendary.


"Leviathan, etc.)"

See, I have a hard time when they take a good character and kill them off. I don't find that to be a bright spot in a series.

"And the on-face-of-it-ridiculousness of some aspects of 5YL - most notably "Salu" Gay Girl/Lesbian Lad Digby,"

I addressed that above.

"Lightning (Proty) Lad"

Okay, I'm with you on that one!

" and "Sean Erin" - pretty much strips 5YL of whatever little "deeper meaning" 5YL might have claimed to have."

I didn't care for the Sean Erin story either, but I don't view the whole era as being stripped of meaning because of the few plots that I don't care for. I still think the 5YL universe was complex and interesting and yes dark and dramatic. It also had its humor and bright spots. Tenzil Kem comes to mind.

"All of this you 5YL fans should consider before you clamor for respect for a piece like 5YL. Don't permit 5YL's hypnotic writing to trap your mind. It was an evil book. In its own way, it was as evil as the Golden Age run of Wonder Woman."

The thing is, I'm not trying to "clamor for respect for a piece like 5YL." If you don't like it, you don't like it. I can't change your mind. I'm letting you know that it is disrespectful to use all of those negative descriptions about the series. Okay, we got it, you don't like 5YL! I can't respond to the WW comment. I don't know it.

"5YL truly was a child of the Nineties. Let it stay there, and let its twisted corpse forever writhe in comic book limbo."

Yes please. You do that, and quit dragging out all of your complaints about it to a community where there are people who enjoyed it.

"If we never again see a series about it, it'll still be far too soon for me. (Though I still want to know just how it fits with the modern continuity.)"

Again, if we do see a series about it, you have the right to dislike it all you want. But maybe you could just remember that some people may call you out on your adjectives.

"As for the ThreeBoot, while I hate it with a passion, in the end, it was merely an period of incredibly bad writing, married to an editorial direction that had nothing to do whatsoever with the Legion."

I actually agree with you about the writing. There were some interesting parts, but overall, it fell pretty flat. But I don't understand your comment about the editorial direction that had nothing to do with the Legion. Every issue was about the Legion, wasn't it?

"It is nowhere near as toxic to the Legion franchise as Levitz or 5YL. It probably did no lasting damage to the Legion, unlike the "Two Great Enemies"

The thing is, the Reboot Legion is not affected by your distaste for Levitz/5YL or Threeboot. I mean, they're all going to meet in FC:Lo3W, but your favorite era is tucked aside. I understand if you're displeased with the end of that series' publication. I was displeased with Zero Hour.

Again, you have strong opinions, which you are entitled to, but your opinions aren't the only ones out there.

The strength of the 5YL era is that, despite some real flaws, it had some incredibly powerful stories, more powerful than any other Legion stories before or since.

Also, I once figured out what would be the one Legion page I would most want to preserve if I could only preserve one. It comes from the 5YL era. It's from the issue where the war with the Dominators comes to an end, and Laurel Gand has this exchange with the Dominator leader as he leaves to go home and defend against enemies there:

Dominator leader: Humanity... how foolish is your humanity, which allows blood enemies to live. One day I do believe this weakness will be the end of you all.
Laurel: No, sir, on the contrary. It's our humanity that's always saved us, just as it's your hatred that's destroyed you.
Dominator leader: Hmmm... just possibly... you may have a point, human.
(two panels later, the Dominator leader is in his spaceship, alone, contemplating empty space)
Dominator leader: ...you may have a point...

Anybody who thinks that the 5YL Legion wasn't idealistic enough wasn't reading closely enough.

Your argument would make me go on and on about the childish aspects of the Reboot and the clumsiness of your arguments. How the premises of a "bright team of young heroes fighting in a world of xenophobia" is just a politically-correct pap of the 90s (much more than the intelligent experimentalism and the 3-dimentional personalization of the TMK era).
I could also go on and prove how the original Adventure Comics era unleashed a group of virtually one-dimentional characters whose personality was based on costumes and powers. Is that what you call "mature"? Fact is: Legion became the powerful franchise by exactly moving FORWARD from that. Legion books was always one step AHEAD of the game, not BACKWARDS.
Dystopian is good, especially because the Legionnaires were still the positive contrapoint to a situation where the world was in turmoil. THAT'S a challenging book. Cliché is doing what has been done to death form the last 50 years (costumes! optimism! stupid villains taking over the world!). There was NO cliché under TMK. Reboot was a travestite Legion: it took the characters and added a layer of obviousness and traditionalism to the point that it could well be a Teen Titans book. Or just ANY book.
You seemed to be offended by the idea that YOUR Legion actually grew up and might have gone on a more "mature" territory (meaning: decisions were not always A or B, sex becomes an issue, desires and actions do have more serious consequences). Fine. But there is no way you could go on bashing on the best era of Legion incolume.

Oh oh oh... I get a strong feeling of Pandoras Box...

OPENED!

Please try to keep the flamewar down this time, though... I guess a discussion with someone who considers the Legion a "clean frachise" is pointless from the beginning...

hmmm Mon-el will appear in Superman books in Feb. 2009....as mentioned in Newsarama -

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/081115-dc-solicitations-mar-09.html

No Legion of Three Worlds, so either it's not coming out in Feb or DC no longer sees it as worthy of mention in the preview.

No sweat Ck. Prime's opinion is a lot like some of the people posting at the DC boards when the reboot started 'way back when'. I wasn't a DC boards poster until around the time Legionnaires was launched but there were lots of heated discussions about 5YL even then.

There was a lot of trash talk about the recent dealings in the LegionVerse then and it's alright to have a strong opinion. It shows a passionate love of the Legion and it's characters and in some ways actually endears a poster to the rest of us. I and some others may not agree with him but I doubt a flame war will erupt over his strong feelings.

I actually liked a lot of the books during the 5YL run. The Khundish Legionnaires had promise but were thrown away too quickly to see any of it bear fruit, Laurel Gand (w00t), Tenzil for the Defense(!), I hated the turncoat Sunboy but I loved his love/hate relationship with the lady Sci-Cop, Devlin O'Ryan's report of the destruction of Earth (even though I thought the actual destruction was bull**it), the Venado Bay issue and quite a few more superb moments that brought some of the characters to their 'make or break' moment of destiny.

All I'm saying is that all of the boots have their high points and thats become a part of what we've suffered through to be Legion fans. Barry Kitson's artwork was the saving grace of the first 30 issues of this reboot, it certainly wasn't mark Waid's writing. The writing was the strength of the 5YL, not the art that's for sure, I didn't care for most of it until late in the run. And like Quis, I feel the reboot was weak until Legion of the Damned led us to Legion Lost and the DnA era.

Some good some bad, some strong some weak. Soon we're going to be comparing the Silver Age Legion to the modern Adventure Legion. Betcha it'll be an interesting discussion too.

As far as our opinions are concerned, YK, we're nearly on the same page - except for the fact that i actually liked Giffens and Pearsons art on 5YL very much

And I can imagine discussions were heated when the Reboot hit the stands - way back then, I hadn't even heard of the Internet, so there was no way to participate for me. But I was feeling very bad for the Legion back then and hated the Reboot from the first moment on.

Which is exactly why I didn't comment any further. LOL