Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

I hate it too, so try to get on that ruling the world thing a little more quickly Jim [/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Already on it, Son. Stay tuned for further developments.

Well that's going to make things awkward when the revolution happens. But I'll save you a seat on my council. If not, you can bear heavy loads.

I think they should have literally added "Featuring Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes" and kept Kon-El in the 31st century for a year or so.

Re: J. Michael Straczynski, I'm not sure but I think I remember someone on Babylon 5 mention Interlac as a language.

From the panels, we MIGHT assume DC is building something with Mon-El to make him become the star of a Legion book, and try to make him the Superman (more than ever) of 31st Century. And I still bet on James Robinson writing it, maybe with this Shoemaker guy.
I don't follow Superboy's overtly optimist view that there has never been so much interest in Legion. Creators interested in writing it? Probably just as much as they want Plas, Aquaman and Doom Patrol: still, no book has come out from the former and DP took almost 20 years to Giffen get a chance at it. And see, it's this Shoemaker guy who is the new Legion writer! Woo-hoo!

But since this discussion is about L3W, what I still don't get it after re-reading:

- What was the Lightning Saga about? Why was the Legion involved and worse: why should them care about releasing Kid Flash AT ALL? Wouldn't it have been easier to let him loose in the 21st Century? Nothing reasonable was built from that storyline.

- Can't see why Shooter couldn't finish his story. This still pisses me off a lot. Because it was pure sloppyness and disrespect, especially after reading the whole L3W yawn.

- L3W has not explained WHY or WHEN Johnsboot happened. L3W was supposed to explain that, while it became a book about GL, Flash, lame Superboy and lots of fist-fights among lots of different characters, some of whom had NO REASON AT ALL to appear (L.E.G.I.O.N. or multiple versions of the same character from different eras).

- L3W has not become a lauching pad for a Legion book. From the point of view of PULBISHING, it is indeed a HUGE failure because it didn't capitalize on this big event. It means they made Conner and Bart, third string characters no one really cared about, more palatable than a franchise like Legion. It's like having Batman RIP and substitute Batman for new books on Man-Bat and Batmite.

Finally, my solution for names is the one Giffen gave, which is simple: no more codenames. Just simple as that. Go by names and people will catch up with that. It's not like any Legionnaire has secret identities anyway. They are in their 30s. Move on already from children's fantasies. This is exactly what killed Legion after Giffen's left.

I can agree with this and/or a simplified version of code names ~ keep the ones that work and modify or lose, the ones that don't.

Just use normal names, nicknames or names that have carried over from their younger years.
Names like Cos, Shady, BB, Vi and Dreamy, would be natural, as would Lar, Lu and Ayla.

I more than agree with the idea, I really like it.

There is nothing to explain.

Infinite Crisis created a new multiverse. Within the multiverse the main DC characters are on Earth-0. The Superman of that Earth used to be a member of the Legion when he was younger as first stated in the early issues of Justice League and then explored in the Lightning Saga onwards. Further details will be shown in Superman Secret Origin no doubt.

From the perspective of Earth-0 this Superman has always been a Legionnaire and the Legion has always been the 'Johns' Legion. For Johnsboot read post-Infinite Crisis.

The 'creation' of the Johnsboot is similar to the creation of the Glorithverse - a monumentatal event that started the history of the universe again. In the case of the Glorithverse the Legion suddenly had Laurel Gand, Kid Quantum and Valor pushed into the backstory. With Infinite Crisis, the Legion never had those members but did have Superboy and has Mon-El... just like it should have been all along.

So there is nothing to explain because from the perspective of Superman and the Legion nothing has changed. This is the way it has always been.

With hindsight, Superman Secret Origin should have come out after Infinite Crisis, just like Man of Steel after CoIE. Then there would have been more context to what happened in Lightning Saga etc.

What Lo3W did explain was why two Legions suddenly started appearing, The WnK (3BOOT) Legion was from the post Infinite Crisis Earth Prime.

Those were interesting thoughts about the aborted "classic" Legion in Adventure...but is there any confirmation DC ditched those plans because of lukewarm fan response?

I find it really hard to believe that any Legion fan would prefer to stick with the 3boot version rather than a revived Levitz team.

Having all three Legions in an 8 page back-up seems ridiculous. There were 60 Legionnaires in this Lo3W series and hardly any of them got any "screen time."

I listened to the podcasts last year and when DiDio asked what the fans thought of Superman and the Legion, there wasn't a resounding yes but comments like 'would rather have the reboots back'/"5YL"/'without Superman" and so on. I'm sure all of those fans if asked which would you prefer Superman & the Legion or no Legion book would have said Superman & the Legion. But that wasn't what was asked and IMHO DC's interpretation of the feedback was that the Superman&theLegion book wouldn't sell so plans were scrapped.

Really?!

Good grief.

Convention goers must be a funny crowd! Who the hell would honestly prefer to stick with the rubbish Waid version?

I thought Abnett worked wonders on the previous version but even I accept it's over and done with now.

It's a shame though that DC scrapped these plans. For once it seems like they had a reboot worth going ahead with.

Yes, the John's boot Legionnaires are the same age as Superman ~ middle to late 20's ~ maybe a few, like Lar, in their early 30's.

Superman fits right in with that age group and a book might be awesome with him in it.

I could even see JLA and Power Girl crossovers.

My favorite Legion is the reboot kids, but I could, and will have to live, with what DC offers.

But, unlike many fans here, I enjoy the Legion's adventures with the rest of the DCU.
I'm happy with a Green Lantern Corp in their time period. I loved that Rond was a GL.

I liked the Allen twins and enjoyed having XS on the team because she was a Flash family character.

I don't know how having other superhero groups or individuals in the future somehow 'dilutes' the Legion's impact.
That's like saying that Marvel should only have the X-Men because the Fantastic Four and Avengers dilutes their impact.

Anyway.

So, I'm confused by your thought. There's nothing to explain but then you spent a page explaining things very pertinent to the READER of the comicbook, even using the word "monumental."

It may not be pertinent to the characters in the story but they're not shelling out the 20 bucks. The book would have been quite a bit more eader friendly with a clear summary of these concepts and introductions to the non-Legion traditional protagonists. Yat? SP? I had little idea and had to glean a big portion of the plot from the message boards and wiki. Didn't necessarily make the story to my tastes but filled enough holes to make it someone understandable.

I think you answered your own "I don't know." Mainstream DC fans are used to a universe filled with characters not specific to their read.

Legion fans, not so much. It's pretty much been Legion and their bad guys. Heck I remember the complaints about Ras Al Goul. It was supposed to be a BIG event but it left a lot of us scratching our heads. Similar to L3W, he was a major plot that just showed up and was never given an introduction.

Some of us like that special position for Legion. We may have to adjust or go away.

Oh.
I don't think that I've ever understood that that's what the issue has been for many of you.

Even though I love the Legion the best, I have always enjoyed lots of other comics from DC, and lots of other publishers, as well.
When I couldn't afford buy them, I'd sit for hours on the floors of the drug store or supermarket reading everything I could get my hands on (they must have loved THAT.)

I hope ya'll don't 'go away'.
The very thought makes me sad.

Sorry Silver-Age Lad, but there is still a lot to explain, otherwise you wouldn't have pointed out we need to read AGAIN a brand new retconned Superman origin story that will, supposedly again, solve all the issues.
I don't think Johnsboot has answered a simple question: did Superman find the Legion as Superboy? Apparently not, so there is still a lot to be answered. Mon-El role in the Legion? Not answered - in fact, it is still pretty much open.
So L3W - as a definitive answer to what is Legion role at DCU or anything like that - could be resumed as:

1) All Legions are possible: they are from different Multiverse Earths (not unlikely what everyone has thought in boards);
2) Johns chose his favorite version at a certain point in time, added Gates and XS because he felt like it, and this is the one he calls Legion.
3) Time Trapper is an entity - probably my favorite part in all series. He was reasonable and intelligent to wipe any chance of personification - hopefully - for once and for all.

Teenaged Clark was shown meeting the Legion in flashbacks in the Action Legion story arc, and Superman talks about having been a member, so yes, Superboy was a Legionnaire.

I agree that Timetrapper should be an entity, not a person, but didn't buy the "sentient timeline" theory. Blecch.

While, if the DC Universe, i.e. Kismet, could be sentient in JLA/Avengers, why not a setient timeline?

Also, I've figured out how Earth-Prime came back. Any of you guys remember that at first the 52 were all carbon copie of New Earth until Mr. Mind altered them? Wouldn't a logical answer be that when Mind did what he did to Earth-Prime it acted like a giant reset button, recreating it as it was after Prime left but without the anti-matter wave hitting, and with adding the 3B Legion into the timeline.

I'll go with it. lol

Probably wouldn't even have to "add" 3B Legion into the timeline since nothing precludes it from being on Earth Prime's future in the first place.

A little late, but...
In Amalgam Comics' Legion, there was Multiple Maid (original) and Myriad (reboot).

But there was nothing new to explain in terms of the origin of the Legion of the main DCU (Earth 0) aka the Johnsboot. Everything I summarised had been described in Final Crisis, 52, the Lightning Saga and Superman and the Legion. I agree a summary for non Legion fans wouuld have been good but everything I said has already been published and I'm sure most Legion fans already knew it. Apologies if you didn't.

In terms of the Sodam Yats etc I agree more introduction would have helped. I get the impression that Johns was trying to make the Legion accessible to DC fans by using 'his' characters, assuming all DC fans knew 'his' characters.

I don't think the Superman origin will answer anything more about the Legion's background but put a bit of context to the Legion's interaction with Superman. All of the issues you mentioned have already been addressed.

The Lightning Saga and Action arc clearly showed Superboy as a part of the Legion and this fact has been reiterated a number of times since. Action 858 showed Clark meeting the Legion for the first time and Action 862, Clark arriving in the 30C. Superman never had a costumed career as a teen in the present day however so the term Superboy is a 30/31C name.

Mon-El is a part of the Legion as shown in Lo3W. His origin was shown in Action Annual 10 - sent into the Phantom Zone by young Clark Kent. He wasn't present at the start of Lo3W because Earth-Man had sent him back into the Zone prior to the Action arc starting (as explained in Action 860).

I understand that anyone who hasn't picked up on the events of Infinite Crisis/52, Action Annual 10, Lightning Saga/Superman & the Legion arc may be a bit perplexed by Lo3W which is why I summarised them, but out of those, all of the major questions have been answered.

It hasn't, Silver-Age Lad!

Young Clark met the Legion, but NOT Superboy! Superman met the Legion, and this is NEW, not OLD chronology. Legion had not met Superman prior to the Crisis, or am I wrong?
Mon-El was part of the Legion prior to Crisis: now, with his reboot, he has not. Or has he? I mean as part of the team, not as a special-guest.
I've read all those books you mentioned but unless you want to have a migraine (like I do now, for real! ) and speculate a lot, L3W did not establish a real chronology for Legion. We will still need Superman's new origin to explain those two "monumental" bits above.

PS edit: Also, with Mon-El, Man of Valor storyline, there is a different Mon-El being built before his entrance to the Legion which is might be contradictory with his own story so far.

Ricardo:
Most of the pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths history still exists but the Clark Kent that took part in Legion adventures as Superboy never wore the Superboy outfit in his own time. After Clark became Superman, the Legion stopped visting him after Crisis on Infinite Earths.

When Superman met the Legionnaires in the Lightning Saga, this was the first time he had seen them in years ie since CoIE. The Legion's history between CoIE and the Lightning Saga is not documented (much like the old 5YG) and during that time, Earth Man's Justice League caused all the trouble resolved in the Action arc.

So the only major gap to fill is the post CoIE Legion activity up to the Lightning Saga. What happened to Pol Krinn for example.

Mon-El's story hasn't changed - other than he is now enjoying an extended period outside the Zone during Superman's adulthood after the Legion sent a serum to enable him to do so. Presumably when Supes comes back to Earth Mon will end up in the Zone again for 1000 years. Mon's 30/31C backstory is as it was prior to CoIE.

On a serious note, if you have a migraine then TURN YOUR PC OFF. Looking at a screen can only make a migraine worse. I hope you are feeling better soon.

Um, one more thing. I haven't read all the posts up to it, but, maybe Johns is letting the fans draw their own conclusions, rather than having to explain the idea of two Kara Zor-Els and everything else.

I'm not sure who posted it but someone said they think the Johns-Legion are all the same age as Superman now...

To my eye they're definitely being drawn as at least 5-10 years younger than him. Ed Benes, Gary Frank and George Perez all seemed to make a point of depicting Superman (and the rest of the JLA in the Lightning Saga) as being noticeably taller and bigger than all of the Legionnaires.

I think conventional wisdom is that Superman and most of his contemporaries are in the mid-30s age-range. I'd therefore say that the Legion are all roughly in their mid-20s. Similar in age to the original Titans.

That's probably the optimal age for story-telling purposes too.

That's possible, but Thom is in JSA and he looks like a contemporary of Superman, to me.
Maybe it's his beard.

And I said 'mid to late 20s with a few like Lar, in their early 30s.
But Lar has always been at the top end of his age group while ELad is at the opposite end and still in his early 20s.

I DO agree the Supes has been drawn older.

But the 3boot Brainy called the Johns boot Brainy 'Geriatric' in #3.

My point was that Supes wasn't that far away from them in age (I can't usually tell the difference between mid 20s and mid 30s, anyway.)
So, having Supes work with the Johns Legion wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

As for the rest, I missed most of '52' so I'm out of the logic loop and need to just go with the flow, I guess.

Hey, how old would you say Garth and Imra were when they got married?