Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

Oh, not another set of names please. I think I'd just prefer extending the reboot, preboot, whatever names.

A simple scene with a bunch of the older batch sitting around feeling foolish for their boy/lad/girl/lass names and they start coming up with new ones, kind of like we would do here. Hopefully settling on names already used.

Generally, did #5 resolve things, status quo or make a bigger mess?

Have any of the DC types made claims in interviews as to whether or not the goal was clarity of some type?

I LIKE Duplicate Damsel! As a kid, it took me a while to bet my tongue around Duo Damsel, so I feel proprietary about that name. Duplicate Damsel preserves the tradition.

On the names in general, I think it needs to be clear that a) the Legion are in their early/mid 20s (maybe some can be older, Brainy and/or founders) and that the "Boy/Girl/Lad/Lass" names are equal parts tradition and ironic coolness. And yes, "real" life has now caught up with Levitz's most hated story -- increasingly, with more education, delayed marriage, etc., the 20s are being recognized as sort of a second phase of adolescence. You don't have to extrapolate much from today to get to "Lightning Lad" age 25. Wonder if you have to be over 25 to rent a space cruiser in 3009?

Duplicate (Damsel) is too close to Duplikate from Invincible.

I haven't read the final issue yet, so I'm not really able to comment, but it does seem that most of you aren't *that* enthused or incensed - is this really what we hoped for?
Part of me thinks that perhaps a massacre would have been better if it left us with a single Legion that could move forward with a purpose rather than all the versions knocking around and them all being viable.

I find this frustrating because I don't see a clear future for a comic book that I feel strongly about.
>laughs< I think part of me thinks that I could do a better job of it, but even I know that isn't true. But I imagine what teh Legion *could* be, and this isn't it.

I think she should just keep using Duo Damsel and say it's because she likes that name better than anything else she can think up.

The question I want answered, can each of her duplicates duplicate? If so she's basically invincible. She could have kept Superboy Prime occupied pretty much by herself. Doesn't hurt that she's a great martial artist too who knows how to co-ordinate her attacks.


If not, even if she can only create duplicates from one body, she's still extremely powerful now. Way to go Lu, you were always one of my favorites.

Given the mess that the DCU has been in ever since the first Crisis, I don't think they did too bad of a job with what they had to work with. If I ruled the world, I'd hit the cosmic reset switch and revert everything back to pre-crisis. That's not likely to happen, so we have to deal with what we've got.

I think what the Legion needs more than anything right now is stability. No more retcons, reboots, redesigned costumes, or renamed members. The LSH will never achieve its rightful place in comicdom as long as every creative team that comes along decides to rewrite their history, redesign their costumes, rename them, create a new version/vision of the team, etc. etc. If we look at the DC icons, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc. What do they have in common? Well, for one thing, their names and costumes have remained virtually unchanged for decades. That makes them easily recognizable to diehard fans and casual readers alike, which is crucial for sales. It's hard enough to keep tabs on who's who in a large cast like the Legion's without giving them new costumes and codenames every few years.

I was really underwhelmed by this issue and thought the ending was ridiculously cutesy.

It's hardly a fitting end to the Legion - which is what seems to have happened if all we're getting is the occasional solo Legionnaire in the back of Adventure.

Here's what I thought of the issue but it's got spoilers! So beware!!!

http://bottlecityofkanga.blogspot.com/2009/07/legion-of-three-worlds-5-was-it-worth.html

The best I can say is, as a whole the series was better than Final Crisis.

After being disappointed with issue #5, I read all five issues together this afternoon. Much like "Final Crisis" itself, "Legion of 3 Worlds" reads much better as a whole. There was so much that I had forgotten. I guess that isn't surprising since it took almost a year to get to the final issue.

This was not the series that I hoped for. I wanted to see a real team up story between the three Legions. Instead it was a John's Legion story with the other two teams as guests. Johns seemed to not have a handle on the 3boot team, at all.

We've seen this type of effort from Perez so many times that the novelty has worn off. There's no way to deny his talent, though and he gave this series his all.

The fates of the two "guest" teams were resolved in a fairly contrived fashions. In the end, though, the series succeeded in erasing the concepts of of "reboot" and "3boot". Those teams are now clearly defined as being alternate reality versions of the Legion. The Lightning Saga can take center stage. There was a great deal of thought and effort into putting the team there. Nobody can deny the effort. Ironically, though, there is no stage for them to take. I like Conner. Don't get me wrong. But if this had been the series I had hoped for, the preview pages at the end of issue #5 would have been for a new Legion series.

I would think that when Superboy Prime returns,he will need some new lambs to slaughter to show how evil he is,and those lambs could be the 3boot Legionnaires since they are on the same Earth and his watchdogs.

As for the reboot Legionnaires aka the new Wanderers,talk about others trapped in limbo would suggest a roster shake up as well.

I've also noticed over the years that out of all the reboot Legionnaires,XS and Gates have always had the most votes in fan polls and now their in the same universe as the Lightning saga Legion.

I do not think this is the end of the Legion at all and I don't think they intended to write it as such.


On the contrary, I don't think there's ever been more high profile interest in the Legion than there is right now.


Geoff Johns and James Robinson are the primary handlers of the Legion right and as evidenced by the various plotlines involving their Legion characters, they don't just have plans for the Legion, they've got major plans for them.


Johns wouldn't be writing back up stories for a team he has no interest in...and the fact that he brought Starman into the JSA shows his interest as genuine(Robinson as well since he basically created this Starman in his Starman title).


No, they are just trying to make the Legion an open club again...or to paraphrase Mark Waid, a penetrable read.

I think they are doing it in phases and putting Legionnaires in familiar places so they'll seem more faimiliar forevermore to this generation of casual fans.


I know it's tough to see it from the inside looking out as all Legion fans pretty much see it...but this is book is intimidating as heck to the casual fan. And it hurts it.

This LO3W series with all it's Titan and GL and Flash connections, was to open the Legion up to the casual audience...


Superman being put back in it....

Appearances in the JSA Justice League, Superman...


That's why they put Superman back in it, that's why Mon-El and Tellus are currently in Superman.


You read these plot threads and the Adventure solicits and the backstory is that they are doing something to save the Universe...


They definitely have plans for the Legion IMO and I get the sense they are building up to something.

If you take a look at all the creators that have expressed an interest in doing the Legion, or returning to it, and add in the sales of LO3W, not to mention that the Publisher of DC is Legion Fan #1 and has said there is always going to be some kind of Legion title...it's obvious, to me at least, a major relaunch is coming. One built from the ground up with open doors. One that was started about 3 years ago.


There's just too many high profile creators interested in(and in some cases already working with) the Legion...


J. Michael Straczynski
Brad Meltzer(The Lightning Saga was Meltzer's idea not Johns).
Geoff Johns
James Robinson
Keith Giffen(still)
Dan Jurgens
Copiel
Alex Ross

I think even Mike Grell said he'd do the Legion again if asked.


What does it tell you that the creative team that relaunched Thor have both made comments about wanting to work(or in Copiel's case return) to the Legion. JMS comments came when he was the regular writer of Spiderman, and they weren't solicited either. They are one of his favorite groups. And he specifically said they needed to return to the Silver Age or Pre-Crisis version.

Probably every creator to work on the Legion in the past 20 years goes on that list as well...since many of them wanted to write the Legion with Superman in it strongly resembling the Silver Age Legion, and never got that chance. Including Giffen.

And Mark Waid.


Pretty much every high profile creator at DC outside of Grant Morrison has mentioned something about doing the Legion...

I really don't think it's the end. It not even a true break as there's heavy Legion activity going on right now in Superman.

I appreciate you're feeling quite upbeat about all of this but we've been here before haven't we?

Loads of hype about how great the Legion is going to be blah blah blah and then nothing.

Obviously I'm talking about Mark Waid's terrible reboot but at least we had a monthly book then? What have we got now? Eight pages a month!!

DC have got a bad habit of telling fans what they want to hear and then not delivering on it.

In 2006 DC's PTB realised thay had made a big mistake in launching the 3boot and set about bringing back the 'iconic' Legion, using Meltzer and Johns to relaunch.

The final part of the plan was Lo3W that was going to rid the DCU of all the duplicate Legions and kick start the Legion commercially again. It was clear from the dialogue at various Cons last year that DiDio intended to launch a 'Superman & the (iconic) Legion' series after Lo3W. But the reception was cool, Legion fans wanted 'their' Legion (Reeboot/3boot/TMK or whatever) and did not want Superman as part of it.

It was quite clear that DC started back peddling at that stage and the plans started to change. In effect the re-vamped ending of Lo3W has resolved nothing and it is quite clear that DC now have no confidence in a Legion book.

Having prepared to launch Advanture with (I believe) the Superman/Legion series fronting it, the Legion are now relegated to a back up strip. And having settled on the Lightning Saga Legion as the future, DC are promising the threeboots and reboots will appear in Adventure. This has got the Legion fanboys Yaying but in reality leaves the commercial position of the Legion worse off. If comic readers thought the Legion impentrable before, how will they take to a series that features more than one Legion on a regular basis. Answer: they won't!

I believe that if DiDio had got his way we would now be well into a Superman and the Legion series but Legion fans have driven DC to where they are now. Sadly it is those same Legion fans who are the losers.

For voicing opinions? People are never losers for voicing opinions over a comic book.

It's up to DC to determine if a Superman and Legion book would sell. If they judged those opinions indicated otherwise, then who lost? The book wouldn't have sold, by DC's estimation so why would fans be "losers" for not buying a book they didn't want to read? Sounds like they saved 4 bucks.

On the other hand, if DC had gone ahead, published the book, by now DC should know that enough Legion fans would have bought the book to see how it was (much like they did L3W). If the story was attractive, those same legion fans would have spread the word on the message boards and even more would have bought the book to see for themselves.

Only DC can be winners or losers over the publishing of the book. Legion fans have always shown themselves willing to give even an unanticipated Legion book a try.

Having now read the whole issue, I have to say it was...weird. On the one hand, the whole Superboy Prime thing is cracked, kooky, spooky, creepy and more than a little bit sick. While it was done reasonably, I'm not sure it fit with the Legion. On the other hand, the Legion part of the ending was done in true Silver Age/Bronze Age fashion, but done quite well. Brainy wanting nothing more than his counterparts gone and a haircut was just wonderful. I'm delighted XS and Gates have stuck around. I kinda wish Kid Quantum had stuck around too. Hope we see her somewhere again. I agree Johns never bothered to get the hang of the 3Boot, but it's a moot point now. The Fallen Heroes ceremony was nice, especially adding those from the reboot and 3boot. A nice touch. Best of all, to me, was Brainy's comment about the Time Trapper being a rebellious alternate timeline. THAT'S brilliant, and it sums up everything we've ever seen from the character, just in time to finish him off.

All in all, I am happy to be coming around to the Johnsboot Legion, and I'm not too eager to see the other boots again soon. I think their respectful send-off will be appreciated by most fans. I think anyone wanting to use them again should read "Tom Strong" and see what a great job Moore did in his alternate universe versions of his characters. I think any future uses should highlight their distinctiveness from the "original" characters.

As always, I'm a stick in the mud about them being as old as they are, and leaving behind the young heroes and their interraction with Superboy. I think DC and Johns have done a nice job of making the Legion part of Superman's past again, and I gather the Legion has big role in "Superman: Secret Origin" that will continue that. But the past of the new/old Legion is still not that accessible to new readers (living mostly in expensive Archive editions). I think the new status quo positively cries out for a back-up series with untold tales of the Legion and Superboy. Again, I would reference Alan Moore's "Young Tom Strong" stories as an example of doing this well. I think the flashbacks that Johns and Meltzer have already done are a great foundation for this, too. I think there are lots of stories out there to be told, and a good way to tell them is to tie them closely to key learnings for the young Mr. Kent.

I thought DC's 'Elseworld' books were money makers.
They've certainly done a lot of them.
Marvel even has a popular 'Legion'!

I don't see why there's a problem with more than one version of the Legion if they're done correctly.

The cartoon Legion wasn't much like the original but I enjoyed it.

I'm looking forward to whatever Legion stories I can get, even if I don't always agree 100% with the story or the version or the title or whatever.

Jerry:

I think he did. I thought it was especially a nice nod to the spirit of the 3booters when Superboy Prime - who we learn is from the same Earth as the 3boot Legion - yelled "Shut up, Grandpa!" at his older self/Time Trapper.

I'm referring to stuff like that when I say he didn't have a handle on the 3boot team. The "Eat It, Grandpa" moments came early in the 3boot and the team slowly matured. Most of the character moments for them in 3 Worlds referred to that mistrust of adults. It was one dimensional and failed to recognize that most of that attitude had slipped away in the latter half of series. Plus, If Superboy Prime's knowledge of the Legion came from the comics he read as a kid, he would have limited knowledge of the 3boot team, so that comment from him came totally from left field.

Element Lad as a spirtiual, reluctant warrior was more in line with reboot Jan than 3boot. The series failed to acknowledge Cosmic Boy's, Karate Kid's and Triplicate Girl's disappearances. It failed to acknowledge Projectra going bad. There really wasn't much in Legion of 3 Worlds that corresponded with the final year or so of the Legion except Manapul's costume changes.

And the lack of any reference to Gazelle only reiterates this

There's a lot to talk about so I'll just get to some larger impressions.

- The Art was fantastic but I agree with Ricardo that the final pages looked rush. I wonder what actually held things up for so long? It certainly felt like Wildfire was slated to die but Geoff rearranged the dialogue so he would live (like Nightwing in IC). I wonder if several last minute changes like that occurred?

- The writing I thought was good in places and weak in others. The good? The dialogue, the character interaction, the sense of excitement and dynamics. The bad? Superboy Prime and his ultimate fate with Earth Prime, and then logging onto the DC message boards. It took the fanboy analogue too far; I honestly think you can't ever use Superboy Prime seriously after that (so hey, maybe thats a good thing after all ). Also good was the usage of the Time Trapper though and several revelations...

- So I'll spend an extra minute on the Trapper. I thought it was a welcome twist and defining characteristic that the identity of the Trapper changes and he's more a force than anything. I've been reading fan theories like that for years on the DCMBs and LW, so I wonder where Johns got that idea?

- All in all, not as much death as I expected which was welcome. I thought both Wildfire and Dawny might bite it which would have been too much for me.

- Seeing Legionnaires from all eras was exciting, but I expected that all along so I was surprised.

- Establishing the three Legions further was welcome. I thought the threeboot Legion being from Earth Prime was great; I hate the notion that the Reboot's entire universe is destroyed is now firmly canon. However, he did leave it open so that is not the case.

- Its now obvious that the Legion to emerge from this, if any, will be the "original pre-Crisis" Legion (or Johnsboot, or whatever fans want to call it), with Gates & XS added to it. Which is pretty much what most of us always knew was going to happen anyway whether we wanted that or not. Now its a matter of it getting its own series.

Also, Eryk mentioned a few months ago an intereseting point:

(A) Superboy Prime is consistently used as a metaphor for 'fanboys' or 'internet posters'.

(B) The Time Trapper and his history manipulating the timeline has often been used by DC to explain editorial inconsistencies (pocket universe, etc.); by accident, DC long ago made the Time Trapper be a metaphor for DC editorial.

...thus...Time Trapper = DC editorial, Johns likely by accident inferred that DC editorial = fanboys they are trying to implicate.

And now: Superboy Prime losing powers and no longer becoming Time Trapper = DC editorial purges itself of fanboys? It would be amusing if that became the case and we could all point to this and laugh at them in revenge for all their crappy crossover events.

I hate it too, so try to get on that ruling the world thing a little more quickly Jim

Yeah, I think that's part of what I didn't like about the conclusion. Then I started thinking, well maybe they'll be gone for quite some time -- possibly forever. Just bring em back for anniversaries and such.

Then Geoff said that they'd all be in Adventure. Oy!

In trying to please all of the splintered Legion fandom groups, I think he will just turn off more people that are on the fence about the Legion.

Time will tell.

I'm pretty much in agreement. I was really hoping this series would set a strong foundation for a new Legion book. Well, there's a bit of potential there, to follow up on all of the loose ends, but we'll see.

The Waid/Kitson Legin wasn't all bad, but I don't think we should be seeing any other version except the main reality for a while.

And Jim Lee! I'm pretty sure he's a big fan of the Cockrum issues -- probably Grell and Levitz/Giffen as well. I can see a bit of Cockrum influence in his work.

If the Legion ever does get an ongoing again, a mini by Johns/Lee with Ross covers could be a good way to bring in new readers. Can't see Lee beyond a mini, but there are a lot of new and great artists out there who could take up the torch afterward.