Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

I don't think even Johns can reconcile the in-continuity death of the orginal Supergirl, the subsequent reboot and non-existence of that Supergirl, and the current Supergirl who is the original Supergirl with Britney Spears costume. How do you make sense of all that, except to say it all happened but it's in the past and now things are different? I can't blame Johns for not wanting to touch it. I haven't read the last issue yet, but Johns seems intent on using what he can from Legion past to set up something that HAS a future. Dwelling on the original Kara doesn't do that, nor does the 5YL Legion.

Just out on Superman panel at SDCC:

What Legion/Legions in "Adventure?" "You'll see every Legion in 'Adventure Comics' eventually," Johns said

Superboy Prime will appear in "Adventure Comics" #4-5, Johns said.

from CBR Live.

Comment: Can't he forget that awfully bad S-Prime for a couple of days????

Totally agree!!!

Fair enough but you can't really lay Earth Prime entirely at Johns' feet.

If you think back over the course of the 3boot during the Waid and Shooter runs they repeatedly showed comics chronicling Earth 1 events.

3boot #15 showed old Flash and Titans comics that were actually produced, and Phantom Girl was also shown to have a collection of sctual comics as well.

The 3boot being on Earth Prime was something intended from the beginning or at least following IC IMO.

It totally fits for them to be on Earth Prime. And he is called Superboy Prime.


I never thought for a second they were going to kill Superboy Prime, he's too popular of a villain for them to do that. And Johns went out of his way to show that Superboy Prime wasn't going to be redeemed, at least not yet.

Actually Waid and Kitson had another explanation for those real-life comic books that Barry Kitson once explained on these boards. They never made anything of it, though, and Johns either didn't know about it or decided to go another way with it.

I wasn't laying it at anyone's feet. Just saying I hate it. Is that so wrong?

Things will be different when I rule the world.

Jim... as usual... I couldn't agree more... and if it had to be handled in only a couple of panels couldn't they have come up with a better explanation than... "it's a mystery why I can do this now". The Luornu section reminded me of how cavalier her attitude was when Computo killed one of her bodies. "Oh you can just call me Duo Damsel now". This time it's "I was just eaten by rats but look at my cool new power!" I wonder if she and Chuck will remain reservists only and we'll never see them again. This beefed up power seems like such a one-off where they can show tons of Lus at once but how would it work in actual stories?

Is anyone else completely over the Dawnstar/Wildfire "tragic" romance? Yawn!!! And how many times are they going to try and fool readers into thinking he's dead when all he needs in a new containment suit... gotcha again!

Well... at least the series didn't have the huge death toll of legionnaires that many were expecting.

Hey, buddy! Long time no chat! Yeah, the "something weird happened" explanation was way lame. Of course now I'm going to devote my life to coming up with a better name than Duplicate Damsel. I like that it's similar to her old name, but it sounds kind of clunky.

I think it would be interesting if she used her new power to simulate super speed. For instance, say, she had to get from point a to point b quickly, she could just expand herself a hundred times in that direction and get there in time to stop the ticking time bomb or whatever. Or she could instantly surround the bad guys by duplicating herself into a circle.

I am SO over Wildfire and Dawnstar. Was really hoping she was going to be space dust after he exploded all over her, but NOOOooOOoO! She of course came through without a scratch. I guess anti-energy isn't what it's cracked up to be. Also don't like his new costume.

How about Multitude? Or Infinity?

Hmm. Still not grabbing me.

How about Wearing Out Bouncing Boy Lass?

Multiplicia?

I have to say I was really really disappointed in this issue. About half way through this issue I was thinking "this is stupid, this is crap, this is really really bad, seriously, like, oh my gosh this reads like really bad fanfic." It took me a lot of will to actually finish this issue.

Lots of little things bugged me, Prime's dialogue has always been ridiculous, but not this bad. It was painful. Conner, I love Conner, but HE CAN NOT STAND AGAINST PRIME! For crying out loud, he's not that powerful, how on Earth did his heat vision burn into Prime? It would have been nice to see a hero who is the power equivalent (or a hell of a lot closer) do that damage (like Mon-El).

And Wildfire, ummmm, he's energy, you just get him a containment suit, really, Dawny doesn't know that? Struck me as odd.

And Prime is defeated because he calls his future self stupid and punches him, when Brainy said "What an idiot" I literally said, "this is idiotic, this is just stupid" freakin literally said it out loud. Wow.

Gates staying, I like Gates (when he's not completely insufferable) but his reason for ditching his team were weak weak weak. At least Xs had some sort of real reason for staying. Gates' was just pure BS.

Also, what's up with restoring the GLC, HELLO, Johns was the one who got ride of them to begin with.

Things I liked, Time Trapper being the representation of an alternate timeline and who could be other people based on what is going on was cool, Prime would be a lame TT, but this way leaves more interesting ideas out there.

Prime being sent back to Earth Prime. Loved it when he first came back, didn't like the end where he's on the computer, that ruined it for me.

Polar Boy. Still amazingly awesome. Go Brek.

But yeah, mostly disappointment from me. Honestly it felt like Johns got tired of writing this story and just slapped whatever weak ideas he could come up with to wrap this story up. I enjoyed issues 1-4 to varying degrees, wanted more legion and less retconning, but 5, oh, it was awful.

Or at least that's my first impression, I'll reread it sometime and give a more level headed review later, but right now, "this is stupid" is pretty much the best way to describe this issue.

Maybe so, but I just know it fits seamlessly even with somne of Waid's comments, like that the 3boot was actually the first OYL or Post IC book(even though it started before IC). It fits with the 3boot Mon-El origin as well.

That part has actually been explained partially. This isn't the Pre-Crisis Earth 1, or the Pre-Crisis Legion. It just somewhat resembles it.

Forgive me if you already know this, but just in case you don't...

Basically the Johns version of the DC Continuity(in story) and how it relates to the Legion goes someting like this:

1. Pre-Crisis DC Uni existed until COIE.

Earth 1, 2 ad infinitum. Pre Crisis Legion.


2. Post COIE there was one Earth that combined elements of the 4 or 5 surviving Earths.

Earth Only. Post Crisis Legion(end of the Levitz Run, PU Superboy), 5YG Legion(Mon-El Trapper Event), Reboot Legion(Zero Hour).


3. In IC the Multiverse was reborn with exact duplicates of Pre Crisis Earth 2(definitely) and probably Earth Prime(as shown in LO3W #5).

Those along with the other 50 Earths of the 52.

The current main Earth, which was the sole earth Post Crisis, was also reborn, changed and being sort of a template for them all. The Keystone Earth. This is the Earth of the current Johns Legion.

The 3Boot was on Earth Prime. As Waid said, the 3Boot was actually the first Post IC book.

All the characters on the Post Crisis Earth were reborn into that Post IC Universe as being of it, whether they originated there originally or not. For instance, Power Girl was a survivor of Pre Crisis Earth 2 on Earth Only until IC, then she was reborn into the Main Earth Universe, even though her origin is still that she survived the Crisis being from Earth 2 and wound up on the Post Crisis Earth , which then became the Main Earth. She now belongs there on Main Earth and is of that Universe.

4. Several of the new Earths appear to be exact duplicates of their Pre-Crisis counterparts.

The current Earth 2 is an exact duplicate of the Pre Crisis Earth 2 even though it's not actually the Pre Crisis Earth 2. Since Power Girl was on the Keystone Main Earth, she had been missing from New Earth 2 since what they remember as the COIE. As soon as she appeared in that Universe, a doppelganger of her appeared in that Universe that had also been missing since the Crisis, and was actually the true Power Girl of that Earth 2.

This New Earth 2's Superman still hasn't reappeared...because Kal-L(the dead one in Blacket Night) hasn't reappeared there yet. When/if he does, either that will be his Earth, or a new Kal will appear(he didn't exactly survive the Crisis like PG did, he was some limbo dimension).


That's basically the way it is right now...

Earth 2 and Earth Prime are back. Post Crisis Earth Only is now Main Keystone Earth with much of it's history changed(like the addition of Johns Legion).

Multiversal chronological organization is a very fluid and changing thing, so some of that may change but that's what it is now as I understand it.


What this all means in the continuity sense:

We've now seen 2 of the new Earths that are pretty much exact duplicates of their Pre-Crisis counterparts.

Earth 2
And now Earth Prime.


What was also shown to be posssible in this final issue of LO3W, is that the a duplicates of the Pre-Crisis Earth 1 and the Post Crisis Earth Only might also be around. I mean that was Pre-Crisis Kara at vanishing point in LO3W #5.
Of course the Reboot was one of the Legions of Earth Only and it was shown their Universe #247 was destroyed, Post IC.

Butthat was the 5YG and the Dot Legion there..although they should be of the Reboot Earth 247 and just different timelines of it due to Zero Hour and the Mon-El Trapper event in 5YG.


So Pre-Crisis Kara did exist one way or the other either in the new Multiverse on it's Earth 1, or at the very least before IC and before the Crisis.


As for this continuity and how a Supergirl, any Supergirl, would fit...


Whether it's the Pre-Crisis Kara or not, Supergirl/Laurel Gand still has a fairly essential place in Legion history. That was part of the reason the Pocket Universe story never worked and they had to have the whiteout in the 5YG, because it didn't explain Supergirl. She was important, at the very least to it's Brainiac 5, so they retconned Laurel Gand in.


Neither of those has shown to have happened in this current Legion...

So IMHO, that's not anything close to resembling the orginal Brainiac 5. It's an important element to just what this Legion is because Brainiac 5 is just about always the center of the Legion, in any era, in any continuity.

He is the one character that's always on the stage.


Just who is this Brainiac 5's love, since he's supposed to strongly resemble the Pre-Crisis Legion Brainiac 5. There are other questions that Supergirl or Laurel Gand represent to this Legion, but that's probably the biggest one.


They either need a Laurel Gand(and supposedly this Mon has a young blonde sister) or this Supergirl needs to be a part of it.


The easiest solution is that she, Kara, hasn't yet been approached by the Legion to be a member in her history, but she is long part of their past in their history.

So, my comics shop doesn't get new comics until Thursday afternoon, so I've just read it finally.

Random thoughts;

Wildfire left a nice crater, but if they are going to call him 'anti-energy', shouldn't they remember that anti-matter (and thus anti-energy) is one of Superman's weaknesses (along with kryptonite and magic and red solar energy), or is that yet another of Superman's weaknesses that Superboy-Prime is inexplicably immune to for no damn reason at all?

On the 3rd panel of page eight, Blok is shown punching Terrus and him just flying apart into a swarm of bugs. I don't remember Terrus being a bug-dude... Was he a bug dude?

I feel my geek-cred die a little on that splash page when I realize how many of those 'Legionnaires' I don't recognize (or never knew were Legionnaires, like Lady Quark). Cute to see various dead Legionnaires, like Threeboot Dream Girl and Monstress and Kid Psycho and Myg and Dragonmage, as well as bit players like Insect Queen and Crystal Kid and Calamity King, although I would have loved to see Lamprey and Nightwind in there as well.

If anyone recognizes them, I'm mostly curious about the redhead in the red and gold costume whose arm is intersecting Imra's leg and the glowing dude in red and blue/black whose head is located between Rokk's feet.

The Cosmic Boy(?) directly above Monstress is intriguing as well, with a costume that appears to have been inspired by the Punisher. I don't recall ever seeing him in that outfit!

The wrap up felt kinda limp. Myg's apprentice (and since when did Myg have two 'g's in his name?, and, being equally picky, why did they call Shikari 'Shakari?' Is this the new Shikari / Chaka Khan crossover?) was remotely intriguing, and the Black Witch face heel turn for Mysa has potential (although I'm not in love with it, despite the telegraphing from the first issue), but the Sun Boy / Polar Boy chat was lifeless, as was Sodomy Lad's decision to pick some new Green Lanterns.

The Conner / Cassie reuinion was rushed and completely lifeless. I'm hoping that there is a real reunion scene in a Teen Titans book, or in Adventure, or something, because that seen was a huge missed opportunity.

And the less said about Prime, the better. He's been portrayed as such a loser, personality-wise, alternating between bullying and petty, and cowardly and petulant, that it's hard to see how he's become one of the most popular DC characters over on the Newsrama/DCU/Geoff Johns boards. He's been written as utterly pathetic, the comic book equivalent of watching American Idol tryout shows so that you can laugh at and feel superior to the people who make terrible fools of themselves spectacularly and shamelessly failing their auditions.

I guess, given the 'real-world' nature of Superboy Prime, him being the comic book equivalent of a reality show washout was kind of the point, but any comic that ends with the writer mocking and belittling the fans of the character that he's built up as the end-all, be-all of existence is perhaps pissing on the people who sign his paychecks...

I am pleased that it didn't end with a massive bloodbath. That was my biggest fear, despite preferring the 'original' Legionnaires to the threeboot and reboot crews, I had zero desire to see either of the other teams slaughtered pointlessly to fluff up how 'dangerous' Brat-Prime was, and it would have also left me with no 'original' Legionnaires anyway, just these weird Johnsboot dopplegangers.

The reason Lady Quark was there is that she was in L.E.G.I.O.N., as was Captain Comet (who I think is the guy you mean between Cosmic Boy's feet). I don't know why L.E.G.I.O.N. members were included, but what the hey.

Is this a simple and interesting concept around which to develop a plot? (rhetorical)


Like you, I think most here are registering well developed opinions and now that we are at essentially the end of Legion, the only one that is going to change anyone's opinion significantly is a writer of Legion.

Sad to say, but Geoff dropped the ball on this one. And he was the (my) great hope for Legion?

The series started off fairly strong, but it quickly became obvious that this was nothing more than a vehicle for reviving Superboy and Bart Allen -- and showing the Green Lanterns in the future and the "ultimate" fate of Superfanboy (should have ended in Infinite Crisis. Heck, we didn't even get an answer for what the Hell happened to Una and Karate Kid in Countdown. In fact, the Legionnaires missing for most of the story are still missing. Sad to say it, but I enjoyed each new issue less as the series progressed.

I guess there's only one Legion left, but really the other one is just on a different Earth (Prime). And all of the alternative Legions still exist. That's not horrible, but it just leaves a door open for DiDio to reboot again.

There were a few interesting Legion tidbits along the way such as Mysa becoming the Black Witch (or should I say Dark Phoenix) and Duo Damsel becoming Duplicate Damsel (I had a similar idea for Luornu back in the 80s), but not much else.

What's really sad is that George finally got to draw some Legionnaires -- and instead of using the costumes we saw in the JLA/JSA crossover, we had to put up with the Gary Frank costumes (some of which were okay, but butch haircut Saturn Girl was actually worse than Giffen's schoolmarm cut for Imra in the 80s).

Yeah, I'm afraid the best of the Legion days are in the past -- ironically.

Wow, Superboy, I'm impressed!

So, who are the New Wanderers (reboot Legion) going to rescue and where are they going to take/put them?
Especially if each new universe has automatically replaced any missing heroes?

The Supergirl of the current REBELS is the one from the 3boot since she had the 3boot Brainy leave a message for Dox in her head when she was a part of that Legion, now identified as Legion Prime.
So, she was pulled to DCU Prime rather than her own DCU?

If that's true, where is the Supergirl from Prime?

So Supergirl in the Johns universe is dead.
Brainy needs to continue to deal with it and move on to a new love, I guess.

Pretty much agree. And I guess DC knew it as well, and that's why instead of a new Legion book, we're getting REBELS (which is very good, but not Legion) and Adventure Comics. It's like the early 70s (pre-Cockrum) all over again.

DC needs a creator like Cockrum to reestablish and revitalize the Legion. I though Johns would be the guy, but sadly, he isn't. He's still a good writer, and he had some interesting moments on L3W, but overall, I'm just disappointed.

Thanks Nightcrawler!

I think maybe an All-Star treatment (without the suckiness of Frank Miller)is the best best bet for Legion. Don't retell stories or restart stories -- just have them already be the Legion -- mostly classic with a few of the newbs sprinkled in.

But All-Star seems to be dead, so...

Yeah, I had an idea for that back in the 80s. I figured that if she was the only triplicater to ever survive the death of a triplicate (and duplicate), there was more to her than met the eye. She was probably a mutant triplicater. I often wondered if someone else didn't have that idea way back when -- and just never got around to it.

Duplicate Damsel as a name though -- I don't think so!

Thanks for that graphic Gary. I'm happy to see Kent and the Khunds (especially Veilmist). It's good to see Dragon Mage, Laurel Kent, Catspaw and even Power Boy again. I think two Reflectos was a pretty cute touch and..hey..where are the Kids Quantum?

I haven't quite figured out who all the feet up at the top belong to.

Love it, Abstract Legion!