Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

No, there wasn't one; it hadn't occurred to me that one would be wanted. Maybe I'll put one in later. Thanks.

Oh you totally make sense Jim and I love and endorse that theory too. I think I just took some short-cuts in explaining it properly when I saw my post was approaching "War & Peace" levels in length.

I think the thing I love most about your theory too is the fact that it never even needs an on-page reason or explanation. It just seems to make a total kind of sense to me, in a perverted kinda way, that the Time Trapper is whoever he/she needs to be when the reality (i.e. story) demands it.

That way, when the inevitable day comes that the Trapper gets another big, shocking reveal about his/her identity, the writer never even needs to refer back to all the other people we've seen underneath the hood. The Trapper just is who he/she is.

Thanks, Blackie. I'm glad I'm not spouting space gibberish.

Never mind.

in understand what you say, but all these "changes" look to me like simple "simplifications".

i mean, when you write a story you have to follow some rules. for starters, every character has to have a clear purpose and role into the story. so, for example, i see how johns pushed a bit threeboot brainy's towards the adults to characterize him better and distinguish him clearly from the other tho brainiacs. etc.

same with imra. i agree with you about how saturn girl has usually been portrayed, but in L3W i don't see her as "not dominating". i mean, i don't remember a scene where she is depicted as weak or passive. it's just that johns wanted to make a point about the three founders, he wanted to simplify their relationship using a "metaphor". to do that he looked at saturn girl from a different angle than usual. what's wrong in that? she is a real 3D character, so i don't expect her to always act "mechanically".

i don't see what's wrong with blok saying "yeah". at this point of his personal history, he's been within the legion for many years. in L3W he looked to me like a strong and interesting character, with a strong sense of abnegation.


i'm afraid that L3W is at risk to meet the same fate of the new star wars trilogy. i think the new SW movies are quite bad, but i also think that a little part of what makes me see them like that is a matter of "perspective" and not just pure objectiveness.
when i first saw the original trilogy i was only a kid, and i found it awesome. so when i saw the new one i had huge expectations, so huge that, realistically, they could have never been met by anything.
i understand that most of you guys here are legion fans for many many years now. so please don't do the "star wars" mistake here. don't wait for L3W to be the levitz legion. it's not. but it's as close as it would have been if it was written today.

i read matthew's review and i felt like he was so afraid of a "nostalgia" book to step a little bit into prejudice towards the de-boot legion.
i agree with him on the nostalgia part: "legion of super-heroes" has often been a series ahead of its time and i wouldn't want it to be stuck into the past like that.
BUT if you follow johns' legion stories from the action comics arc on, it's clear that he's trying to rebuild the book from the very basics. the legion franchise (sorry if used that term again ) was a wreck, with multiple reboots and stuff. i see that johns is trying to rebuild it for a whole new generation. "superman and the losh" was a beautiful introduction to the legion mythos. i gifted a few copies of the TP as birthday presents to a some friends who had never read the legion: they loved it. now, with L3W, johns is writing a "public utility" book to fix the legion's continuity once and for all. it's like the final step of a "rehabilitation program". i feel like that, once L3W will be over, the playground will be finally set for a new era of legion goodness to begin. i really hope so!

I'm very consciously trying to avoid that.

It's difficult, though, because when the retroboot Legion was introduced, Johns:

a) pretended that the retroboot was the exact same as the original Legion with no changes at all of any kind, and
b) tried to give the impression that DC hadn't published any comic books about the Legion since 1985.

Neither of which endeared the whole endeavour to me.

The thing is... you could say the exact same thing about Waid four or five years ago, or DnA five years before that, or Waid again five years before that. Each was trying to "rebuild the Legion from the basics" for "a new generation" and clear up the confusing continuity of the team. Some of us are just fatigued out by attempts to "fix" the Legion, especially when they always seem to make the same mistakes.

well, i don't see it like that. yes, johns wants readers to feel like this is the levitz legion. but their story is not a direct course of v3. some years passed, and things changed. the future is different (see the whole xenophobia thing), legionnaires are different (see cosmic boy or the white witch), etc. at most, i'd consider this as a sort of "5 years gap", just less "extreme" than giffen's.

and i think L3W itself erases point "b", since legion books DC put out since 1994 are at its very basis. it just gives them a different "spin".

i know you liked threeboot (i came to hate it) so i understand this de-boot could be hard for you to swallow. let's just give it some more time to adjust.


yeah, i guess you could say the same for those stories too.
anyway, i'm sorry to say those attempts just didn't work, at least commercially.

since a lot of those stories were actually very good and entertaining (i loved DnA's books, for example), maybe part of their fould could be addressed to the fact that instead of making the legion's post crisis continuity more clear, they added to it another layer of confusion because of the whole reboot thing.
i work in a comics shop for years, and i'm sure you too have idea of how many people avoid super-hero comics because they are too complicated to understand and to follow. so, obscurity IS a problem.

let's hope for this latest attempt to "fix" everything to succeed, so we'll be spared of more of those fixes

No, no: I'm not talking about what Johns was actually doing in the comic books (which I object to far, far less than it seems like I do). I'm talking about what he was saying in interviews and stuff. And he was saying that he was giving us the Levitz Legion just like it was, and he was suggesting that DC had not published a single Legion comic since Crisis on Infinite Earths. That's exactly what he was doing.

If I could swallow the reboot and the threeboot I can swallow the retroboot. And I am of course the most patient of men and always willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But I am becoming frustrated with DC and am presently disinclined to keep my fat mouth shut about it.

I guess I am a nostalgia nut; not so much for wanting the founders to be characterized this way, and the everyone else a certain way, as they were in the 80's.
I think the 80's was simply the PEAK of LSH interest. It was well written and drawn for the most part, although there are always notable exceptions. Maybe I was naive (I was in my teen to early 20's then), but back then, I never even considered the Legion would be canceled. It was going strong, with two books at times, then BAM! Crisis on Infinite Screwups.
Now, Barry Allen is back, and honestly, who knows if he'll even successfully sell a book.
The Legion, at least they've been in contiuous print up till now.
I think we as Legion fans want stability. The retroboot Legion is the closest link we have had to that so far. At leat they act like heroes, not underagers with attitudes. Y'know what? I liked the Lightning Saga for that reason. I've said this before, but when Superman and the JSAers stood before the statues and Superman said they were his friends, and they all could fly, that was my feeling. They were they Legion, and they were COOL. It was the same with the Action Legion. They're links back to the heyday of the Legion. Will it ever truly be the same? No, I'm not that stupid, but I think we just have to get to issue 5, take a breath and say, 'Ok, where do they go from here?' At least someone is trying to restore the Legion. No one, No one, will ever do it as well as say, Paul Levitz, but maybe as someone said a post or two earlier, if we have impossible expectations, we set ourselves up to be disappointed.
I was as mad and disappointed as anyone on this board how the 3boot run ended, and I hope this whole L3W also doesn't end with a Miracle Machine wish, but between Adventure and Superman:Secret Origins, we do have some hope. Let's just not set ourselves up with impossible expectations. LLL

I agree not just because our expectations are impossible but because they obviously conflict.

How many Levitz era fans have slated the reboot or threeboot? How many fans that jumped on during the 5YL, or the reboot or threeboot see 'their' version as the best and don't want any others? These are understandable sentments but where they affect sales are counter productive.

How many 'fans' on this board have said Lo3W doesn't meet my idea of character X so I'm not buying it?

If we want a successful on-going Legion series we all need to
a) buy any Legion books including Lo3W, Mon-El in Superman etc
b) support Adventure Comics irrespective of whether Conner is the main feature and whatever Legionnaires it features

To do any other is shooting ourselves in the foot and probably killing the Legion as a mainstay of the DCU.

I can't agree with much of that.

I don't know. Define stability. I can't come up with a better definition than, "a comic book is stable when DC, in its endearingly whimsical way, decides to commit itself to that comic book". There was nothing much keeping the threeboot from being stable except that DC decided not to go that way. (I know sales weren't the greatest, but who knows how many things might have been different if DC had thrown more weight behind the whole endeavour?)

If you're referring to the threeboot Legion, they did act like, and were, heroes.

But you're looking backwards again. Why would we want it to be the same in the first place? Besides, here's something I believe: the greatest Legion comics of all time will be written by a person who hasn't been born yet. The Legion doesn't need restoring; it just needs writing.

Well, I see your point, but I'm not signing onto any plan where I open my mouth and close my eyes and wait for DC to give me a big surprise. Support what you think should be supported, yes, but also let DC know what you think. Write 'em letters: maybe it won't do any good, but not writing certainly isn't going to do any good.

Finally read it. I say finally because freaking Comic Book Resources spoiled one surprise (the return) and then another website spoiled the death. Oh well...as much as I like the internet, I hate it too.

Anyway, overall, I thought it was pretty good. I didn't like every part though.

Spoilers...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Hated the fact that Zoe was killed. It was bound to happen though...how could she be mistreated any worse than already. Oh, that's how.

Is Element Lad from the threeboot dead too?

Lots of good character moments here and there, but so much of it was the typical 'battle royale' / free for all, which as been DONE TO DEATH these last few years, particularly by DC, including Geoff, and Brian Bendis at Marvel. Perez's art saves my ire, but c'mon...can the ghost of Julie Schwartz teach these guys how to mix up their fight sequences?

Speaking of Perez's art, this was probably the best issue so far on that end. Spectacular.

Sun Boy has a great moment. Polar Boy an even better one. That was nice.

Dawnstar & Wildfire--great scene. After all these years, it feels good having them together again.

Kid Flash back...very nice! The enthusiasm is pretty infectous, and his interaction with XS is welcome.

Welcome back Conner Kent. I was surprised at how glad I was to see him.

Superboy Prime...how boring. The Time Trapper as his reveal? I'm with Blockade Boy: "so?". Actually, I would add: "groan".</span></span>

So I'm not hating it, but I'm not loving it. If it was drawn by someone else, I might dislike it. But I feel like the DC death machine is purposely being held at bay here...some unwelcome deaths for sure, but not the slaughterfest I feared (so far).

Brillant as always Eryk.

Also, Invisible Brainiac--you're the first person I thought of when I saw ___ died. Sorry buddy! I'd feel the same way if Wildfire or Ultra Boy were killed off. As it stands, I'm pretty dissapointed myself.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the entire Reboot's supporting cast isn't wiped out. We really haven't seen anything to make us believe that yet. After IC, there are 52 worlds, it makes just as much sense to assume one of the 52 is the Reboot as it does to say their world was wiped out. When a writer finds a reason to use, say, reboot RJ Brande, they'll simply state Earth [insert #] is where the reboot is.

The problem with a deboot is that it's designed to appeal only to unpleasable fans by driving the rest away. That is, the simple fact that anyone's doing a deboot suggests that no "real" Legion comic has been published since that point.

I don't believe you can ever "rebuild" a series by going back. The only way a retroboot can "restore a sense of continuity" is if you've been sleeping for 20 years.

What I really want is for the comic industry to wake up and realize that they do retcon and reboot their series, and for them to stop trying to claim continuity back to the 60s or earlier. And thus recognize that they don't need to try to make the definitive, for-all-time versions of series because no version will last forever. Reboot whole universes every 20 years if not more often, and make it a feature, not a problem.

Aside: Recently, I thought of a comparison that made me realize why nostalgia as it exists in the comic industry is bad, though all nostalgia isn't.

I'm also a model railroader. (Okay, currently inactive, but I do move in their circles, and I know the culture.) Like comic readers, model railroaders are an aging, nostalgia-driven bunch. But they seem much... healthier than comic fans. Why?

First, aging doesn't mean shrinking. Nowadays, many people are only starting to model late in life. So the fandom is sustainable.

Second, "the truest form of nostalgia" exists in this fandom: "the fond memory of something never experienced". Many modellers are recreating times and places they never experienced. Some are modelling times before modelling itself existed. That is, their nostalgia goes beyond personal first-hand experience.

And here's the distinction this shows. Nostalgia in comics, particularly DC comics, isn't actually about the era in which comics were made. It's, for example, Silver Age retro as distinct from 60s retro. A type of retro that has no meaning if you weren't there, because it's not about style. In other media, only the other form exists. If a model railroader is modelling the 60s, that's 60s retro. That's something I can recognize, though I wasn't born then.

In some places in the entertainment industry, this type of retro appears. For example, retro for 30s pulps, which appears in all media.

So I finally got my copy... quite quickly this time, kudos to my comic book store...

I thought it was splendid. Again. No words can describe my pleasure with Perez art AND Koblishs inking. Fantastic.

The story? Great. Especially loved the Polar Boy moment - including the rescue. This is what I want to read.

I really hope that they are kicking Primes butt next issue. This character has worn out his welcome, and it's time that he just disappears. Old whiner. Doesn't matter if they have to resurrect every 90s character available to get rid of him - please do it.

Funny thing that next to the return of the 80s Legion, so many characters born in the 90s are being reintroduced in this storyline. Really something that one would not have expected from this series before it started.

But I don't just love this series for nostalgias sake: I just think it's damn entertaining, and that's something that cannot be said about many books out there these days. Take Final Crisis - convoluted instead of entertaining. Take Secret Invasion - dumb instead of entertaining. This book really has everything a good comic book should have. And if it takes Perez another six month to finish it - so be it! It's definitely worth the wait...

(snip)

SAL wrote:

Quote

How many Levitz era fans have slated the reboot or threeboot? How many fans that jumped on... see 'their' version as the best and don't want any others?

Actually I'm a Levitz fan. I've read Threeboot thanks to my public library; or at least portions of it. I don't own it because I don't have the money; it's not an aesthetic issue or a how-dare-they-do-this-and-this issue.

When I bailed on DC/Marvel twenty years ago, it was because of feeling soured on the superhero genre in general. It didn't have to do with the Legion in particular.

Also, I can't really agree that anyone should be compelled to buy a book they don't enjoy, in hopes of keeping the "franchise" going. DC can pretend that the health of this "franchise" or any other has to do with a hard core of fans who are also, if I'm understanding you, hidebound about what they want to read. But I think that's nonsense. If they marketed competently to a large, diverse audience, the actual content of the stories would matter less: casual readers would be able to try out something they're unfamiliar with, and they could, just maybe, purchase it on a casual basis. Without feeling like they're committing to buying ten books a month when there's really only one they're sort of occasionally entertained by.

Also, I don't mean this in a snide way, but in the current economic climate, the call to spend quite a lot of money on something I don't like so it can keep going as a published entity really sticks in the throat. A marketing strategy based primarily on this mentality is not one that anyone need respect, as far as I'm concerned.

While I appreciate your frustration with nostalgia hounds (and I've tried to establish above that I'm not trying to be one), I'd also argue that nobody should buy any form of entertainment because they'll feel guilty if they don't. What the hell? Entertainment is supposed to entertain. I already have the utility companies and the IRS doing a splendid job of forcing me to pay out for things I must have but am less than thrilled with service-wise on any number of occasions. Thankyouverymuch.

Another difference is that, as a model railroader, you are your own creative source. You can be as nostalgic or as innovative as you like and it doesn't make a bit of difference to the other model railroaders. But Legion fans are dependent on what DC Comics does, and (for the most part) if DC is doing one thing with the Legion, they're not doing anything else.

just got mine

i saw like 90% of this coming

still loving the brainiac 5's still fighting one another. i dont know if any one caught this but brainy called threeboot brainy baby...i like to think this is cause that version of Brainy is the youngest.

the best part of this book was clearly polar boy something very touching about him no matter how many times, he repeats the same thing its still very nice.


but i have to say this is the best Quote so far from the LO3W
"have you ever read mary shelly fankenstien?"
"that book is for children"
"and incomplete i followed it step by step with little success"

its nice to know that all the brainys like to reanimate the dead:S

Okay, off topic question, does anyone have a good scan of Shrinking Violet, the Action Comics Vi. I might need it.

Read it, pretty much loved it.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">
While I can't say the reveal of Prime as the Trapper was a huge surprise, it worked for me much better than I thought it would...most likely because I'm just used to the Trapper being someone different every time, and I can't see Prime Trapper as a permanent arrangement.


I guess the reason it worked for me is because in comics the continuity headaches have been caused by the Trapper, in reality they've been caused by Superboy. It's actually very clever what Johns did there. </span></span>


I absolutely loved the Polar Boy scene <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> and that may be my favorite Legion fight scene ever...just total defiance on the part of Brek. It was just great, the facial expressions, the fact that they sold it as an impending death(I legitimately thought he was going to bite the dust).</span></span>


I hear the words of those bemoaning the loss of one of their favorite characters, and you have my sympathy. That's the problem with killing characters, every character is someone's favorite.

But as for what Johns is doing to relaunch the Legion to a newer(and older) and hopefully larger audience...I'm sold.

I don't really care about personality differences between now and past incarnations of characters, that is something that is generally done with a change of writer and most of the Legionnaires have gone through personality changes over time. Johns certainly isn't the first writer to do it.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">
I think the conclusion will probably be something like the Legion not doing what it did to create the Trapper, which was something destined to happen very likely in this very battle. This battle being what created the Time Trapper, this version anyway. And once they don't do it the Prime Trapper and his machinations will cease to exist leaving probably much of the continuity of the original Legion intact with several of the Zero Hour Legionnaires staying in this continuity(probably the all original versions), with their history more or less intact and the 3Boot going back to Earth Prime(and possibly taking Prime with them).

I don't see many of the 3boot Legionnaires staying around, because none of them are original characters and that series just finished up.

I do see many of the ZH Legionnaires sticking around(the original ones) and that makes sense since the best all new original characters created in the Legion continuity over the past 20 years were created for the ZH Legion.

</span></span>


In any case, I truly love this arc, it's one of my favorite Legion stories ever to this point(and I can't believe I'm saying that about a hyped up mega-series) and hopefully it will continue to be.

Before this series launched I remember Johns talking about a scene with Duo Damsel and Bouncing Boy...I have yet to see that scene(or them) and I'm expecting to see it in the final issue of this series.

I think Johns is on the right path. IMO he's restored certain elements to the book that helped it to it's greatest successes...

That said, the biggest problem I see facing the Legion is a lack of original villains and foils for the team. Most of their original villains have been retconned into the mainstream DC Uni...and while those ties can help the Legion, a lack of memorable new villains can hurt them as well. I mean Mordru is now just as much of a JSA villain as he is a Legion villain...ditto most of Shooter's other creations and the mainstream DC Uni.

So IMO, yes the Legion needs to be tied to the DC Uni and it needs ties to Superman to make it a more important or legitimized title in the eyes of the typical comic reader(who we need to keep from being rebooted), plus those aspects are cool...at the same time, they definitely need to have their own unique villains and landscape to set them apart as a team of the future.

I am the biggest fan of Superboy and the Legion that there ever was most likely...but I have zero desire to see any sort of regular ongoing title with Superman and the Legion. It's just not the same. It's Superboy that was the important character and since the ages of the Legionnaires in this incarnation pretty much make them equivalent to a young Superman, not Superboy, I don't really think that's going to be a necessity...the ties and underlying foundation of the Legion have been restored, and that history is there to be references or perhaps lead to an occassional appearance and that was the important thing as far as Superman and his function as sort of an anchor character was concerned. It's just not the same with Superman...it never was, and I don't think it's something DC should try to force.

It's their future world and villains that need to be replenished now....


I just hope Johns stays on the title.

Yeah, didn't somebody say that Duo Damsel was going to have her power increased and become Duplicate Damsel? I find it hard to believe that's still going to happen this late in the story though. What possible explanation could there be for it to tie into the story as it's unfolded so far? When is the next issue due btw?

The Duo Damsel scene I thought happened in issue #2. I don't have it handy, but didn't she multiply A LOT in that one?


The Time Trapper reveal was interesting. Considering how many reveals there have been, I'm okay with it for now. It certainly hints to a future story I'm looking forward to reading. And good to know SB-Prime isn't going to be redeemed so quickly.

And Polar Boy! Wow- he might be my new favourite, stepping up like he did.