Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

I wouldn't be surprised if she meant LeViathan. The two shrunk, Zoe staged the explosion, blah blah blah, you can get the rest of it.

cartoon series was killed after 2 seasons despite being way better quality wise than things like "the batman" (5 seasons). Yes, 50 years of declining and declining sales no matter how hard they try to breathe new life into the book, it just keeps going down! I wonder why!

listen, no one knows who the legion are. they just don't. they're obscure. that's why the cartoon didn't do well, no one had heard of them. a lot of little children didn't think they existed outside of the cartoon. i don't care how well they sold in the 80s, it's my sad duty to inform you that it is no longer the 80s, it is 2009. Bart had his own book for 89 issues which, divided by 12, means... a little more than 7 years which is very very good for a comic about a sidekick. Bart was in Young Justice, Bart was in Teen Titans. Bart became the frigging Flash.

people understand "smaller version of the flash" better than "weird group of people from the future that superman might be sort of friends with, no not the justice league". whenever i mention legion to someone, in and OUT of comics-know, their first reaction is "you mean the justice league?". "no, superman's friends when he was little" "I have no idea who they are".

firstly, i'm not very convinced that zoe is dead-dead. secondly, how much do i not care if she IS dead? oh my god. compared to the other characters he could have killed?! i mean you guys realized SOME people have to die, right? or were you expecting no one to die? i really don't understand what people want here. no one dead? none?

i'm sorry, some characters are way more important/popular than others and to keep the threat of death there, you've got to kill some people. it's a giant battle!!! on one side, are people sworn NOT to kill, on the other? people that like to kill people!! think about it!

and heck, in the end, they might be all right...?!

i liked element lad a lot more in those few panels than i've cared about him in a long time.

the legion has become something of an old thing that hangs around in DC's closet. it's a pain in the ass because they've got a crap ton of characters, messed up continuity, insane plotholes, and fans that, in my experience, have been filled more with unforgiving vitriol than affection. i don't think there's an issue that's come out where i haven't heard "i'm never reading this again". it hasn't. even. started. there area lot of reasons to stay positive here, especially considering the lengths i think DC's going to to try and get people to like this book.

It's quite sickening to realize they cancelled the cartoon for all that new crap they've been pushing out.

Of course, people do have to die. And I'm not complaining if it's done well. I'm actually not angry that Zoe might be dead, if Johns can make her death mean something next issue. No unanswered questions about why she said "Leviathan", for example. (I'm glad, though, that Zoe got some lines and personality this issue! ditto 3boot Element Lad - at least readers got to know them a bit before they bit it.)

You can understand my reaction of sadness, though, I'm sure. Kinetix has always been, and probably always will be, my favorite Legionnaire after all.

I was thinking about Thom's role in all this too. Was he after Connor's body? But then, Connor's already back so why would he be...

Pa Kent perhaps? But what would that do? It's not like SB-Prime would be thrown by Pa Kent being brought back. (I agree very much with the poster he said he was SUPPOSED to be lame. That's why we all love to hate him!)

No one died in the GREAT DARKNESS SAGA, yet I never see anyone talk about not liking the story. I'm just saying.

It was Conner that Thom exumed and placed in the Kryptonian chamber and left to simmer on slow for 1000 years. That's why he gets a gold star from B5.

Agreed and same with Earth War and many of the other Legion classics. But remember this whole story arc is aimed at getting down to one Legion in DC continuity, so it had to be a mass sacrifice or some kind of body merger to remove the other two Legions. Looks like Johns is going for a mass scrifice. What bothers me is the fact that never in Legion history has more than one Legionnaire died in any given battle but they've now lost loads of folk without any seeming reaction to the overall carnage. 3B Brainiac described the threeboots as cannon fodder early on and it appears that is exactly what they and the reboots are. Is that really the way the Legion(s) operate?

I'm sure you didn't mean for this post to come across as hostile and lecturing as it does veryvery but it does anyway so here we are.

Tips for a more pleasant posting style - don't begin sentences with "listen" (as if we're not) or "I'm sorry" (when you're not) and try not to express your shock so blatantly that someone might dare to like a different character to you and be upset when they're killed off ("oh my god"). Oh and also please don't lecture us about what year it is ("it's my sad duty to inform you that it is no longer the 80s") - some of us are quite happy with our 'Flock of Seagulls' hairstyles and bedazzled jeans!

I'm not sure what's even prompted this sudden anger from you either -

The fact that people are criticising the amount of attention Bart and now Kon have received at the expense of the Legion in a book called "Legion of Three Worlds"?

Surely that should come as no surprise on a website for Legion fans. Ditto the fact that some people are expressing sadness when their favourite characters are killed off?

Nightcrawler's already made a very good point about the necessity for deaths to make a good story.

I also have to say that I disagree with your assertion that "listen, no one knows who the legion are. they just don't." (not that the way you worded that leaves much room for anyone to possibly do so). Especially when you seem to make this claim while at the same time implying that Bart Allen is somehow infinitely more well-known. Among who I'm not sure but still, I seriously doubt it. "The Flash"? Yes, certainly. "Kid Flash"? Maybe. "Bart Allen"? I don't think so. And who cares how many issues he's been in? Add them all together and it still won't be half as many books as the Legion's had. I really don't get what point you were trying to make here.

Finally, I know you can't have been talking about us when you wrote this line re: the Legion - "it's a pain in the ass because they've got [...] fans that, in my experience, have been filled more with unforgiving vitriol than affection." but I still had to chuckle anyway. Isn't that a good description of how you reacted to most of the issues in Shooter's run? I hope it's not a "pain in the ass" just because some fans happen to dislike something you do.

As for my thoughts on Lo3W #4?

<sob> ... and it had been going so well! More later but after *loving* issues 1-3 this one was just kinda... there.

I'm going to read it again before I give a proper analysis.

Thanks Silver Age Lad! I actually figured it out when I read the issue a second time and was coming here to edit my post, but you beat me to it. Thanks That should teach me to post after a hasty first read

We are reading your posts. Are you reading ours? We are mostly LEGION fans first, not Johns fans, and we come at it from that perspective. The complaints are not about the deaths, it's the lack of manner and meaning that raises negative response.

As for Zoe, if she's not "dead-dead" then doesn't that kill your premise that "SOME people have to die" if the intent it to revive all the lost characters?

Having characters fade to oblivion, like in ZH was much preferable to me than what is being offered by Johns.

It is expected that the characters are respected and put above the writer's ego. These characters are respected and it's expected that any finality to them not resemble a Wes Craven, slasher kill fest, that there be heroic actions and "clean" if you will, deaths. Not crushed skulls and one-up-menship grossouts meant to cause orgasms to Johns' 12 year old mentality. So far all that's been missing is the maggots.

This is a Legion book, not "House of Mystery."

Johns' methods have taken all emotion out of the losses. No one is lamenting the sacrifice or pain of the deaths as they normally would and that is because of the poor writing and styling. These have just been meaningless losses, cattle. So far, not a single character death would be consider unavoidable. They've all been stupid.

No new reader has had introduction to any of these legion characters that have died, so there's a missed opportunity.

Clone, SP, Yat, these are all major players after who this book should have been titled, that have not been given ANY introduction to those one might expect to be buying a book titled Legion. Of the three, the only one we might reasonable be familiar with is the clone, and that is a very dated and negative memory. He was a boy-jerk. Why should we get all "Hooray!!!" for the return of THAT character? We have no reason to understand why SP isn't easily taken out, given his vulnerabilities and Legions' skill set. They could easily take down the original Superboy and Superman, this guy is not tougher. Yat? nothing to say since he's basically disappeared after hogging a whole issue.


Now someone on this message board might be able to answer the questions posed above, based upon their experience with other books, but that should not be necessary if the writing is solid.

Good writing on a serial has to account for the known audience doesn't it? How has Johns done that?

Finally read it. I thought there were very good things, some less good. A few questions, though

1) Brainy references that "a group of Legionnaires" is still missing. To whom does he refer? I have just lost track.

2) Why on Earth is it Wildfire who has to choose the crystal to bring Conner back? Johns makes a BIG deal of that. Why?

For my own 2 cents, I think Johns does a very GOOD job (one of his strengths) of infusing narrative dialogue with distinct characterization, and I think he managed to do that a lot in this issue. Doing that is essential in a book as big as the Legion. Having said that, he's dragging SO much story at this point, it's not clear even Johns can do service to either the characters or the background narrative. I will say I was touched by Element Lad's reaction to Sun Boy's murder, and the particulars of his reaction did more to demonstrate this E-Lad's character than much of what Waid, Bedard and Shooter did in 50 issues. That appreciation, though, stands side-by-side with revulsion at E-Lad's death. It seems with Johns, you can't have one without the other.

I think Wildfire had to choose it because he was one the only ones there who were actually from Earth.

The missing Legionnaires are: Nura, Jeckie, Tenzil, Chuck, Lu, Troy, Quislet, Ganglios, Thom, Reep, Jan. The original ones.

No idea what crap that would be. OTOH, I seem to recall that the cartoon was very popular and won a couple of Emmys while it was still around, yes?

Knowing that in conjunction with v v's assertion that "nobody knows these characters" makes me think of the phrase "Circular Logic." Very popular amongst marketers and the execs they work for. I mean, obviously if your "franchise" is off to a promising start in a medium where it's rarely been seen before, what makes the most sense is to cancel it after two years; thus preventing your future comic book (and related swag) buyers from growing up with it. Yeah, that's really gonna' feed the "property's" long-term health.

It really doesn't pay to try and understand marketing (or politics). Unless you really enjoy splitting headaches, of course. Same as it ever was. :rolleyes:

You must forgive me. I might've been cranky when I typed the quote. I mean I was mad they cancelled the cartoon yet they keep stuff like:

Johnny Test, Squidbillies, Skunk Fu, Tim & Eric whatever, and all those live action shows on Cartoon Network. Half the good cartoons they only air on Boomerang nowadays. I miss the 90s.

I thought that...
Lu was dead in an alley next to KK,
Thom was nuts
and Ganglios is in an aquarium?

BTW, the Monel story in Superman is about to catch back up with Tellus. I'm excited about that storyline.

Thom and Ganglios are still in the 21st Century, hence, missing. Because no one knows what happened to Ganglios. You honestly think if they knew he was trapped in a glass jar they wouldn't do anything?

There's one of Lu left. Hopefully. They haven't announced her as FULLY dead.

No need. I wasn't disputing that it might be crap. It's just that I haven't seen most of it.

Watching the early Titans and JLA cartoons though, makes me think that it really does take ensembles that size a couple of years to really find their feet. Even the creators talk about how a lot of the beginning is hit or miss and trying to figure out what works vs. what doesn't. At least those "properties" (can you tell I hate that term) got some time and investment to stretch out and show what they could really do.

And, y'know, if people want to watch Batman, future Batman, Victorian England Batman, Manga Batman and Phillip Glass Batman then great. For them. But that's never gonna' be my cup of borscht no matter how much money it makes. Sorry, DC, but no.

Bad DC, bad. That's very, very bad.

3-D Batman!

Furry Batman!

Elvis Batman!

Final Crisis Rocky Horror Picture Show Batman!

(Sorry. I'll stop now.)

You left out Joker Batman, Gorilla Batman, Transvestite Batman, Hippie Batman, and I Can't Believe It's Not Batman.

I think Final Rocky Horror Crisis Picture Show would take care of the "transvestite" requirements.

Now, I don't require every character death to be something set up for a long time, or a sacrifice, or whatever. The Legionnaires are fighters; they joined knowing their lives were going to be risked.

What is wrong is how little reaction I can summon to the deaths. I still don't accept that this story is really happening, or that the older Legion are real in any story they appear in. All I can muster up is an "Oh, no... please don't do that to Zoe..."

oh I thought the reference to "missing" meant WE didn't know where they were.

Oh. My bad.