Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

It's always nice to be reminded how far ahead of its time the Legion was in the 1960s, with girls being equal members, elected to leadership, and perishing in combat. Wow!

I do worry that it's a little condescending and potentially uninformed to talk about what girls "want" in comics. Yes, more girls probably read manga than superhero comics, but that doesn't mean that making Legion more manga-like will attract female readers, unless you actually publish it in manga format and re-title it. And I agree that DC really doesn't know how to market much of anything. They know how to jump on the bandwagon of already popular creator-driven vehicles (Johns, Morrison), but they really DON'T seem to know how to deploy a strategic, multi-modal market campaign for much of anything. And maybe it's just not economic for them to do so, as long as aging fanboys like us continue to buy their product.

In my issues of Legionnaires I never got a manga feel. If I want a manga feel in american comics I'll read Adam Warren.

But I agree, in a way, when DC does something new all they do is revamp something old. When they do try new stuff it doesn't last for long, even if it's good. Young Heroes in Love, Resurrection Man, Jurgen's Teen Titans, Xenobrood.

Yeah, I certainly didn't mean to make such a gross over-generalisation of female readers, I was just trying to pick up on Trip's points to show why it didn't necessarily work. Sorry, no condescension intended.

I would add TMK to that list, definitely. And Green Lantern: Mosaic. And Vext. And The Heckler.

I didn't say I saw too much manga influence in the reboot Legion, but I know some other readers did. Exactly. The reboot seemed to be for a new audience, whatever its exact demographics. I suspect the main reason it sold so poorly was that DC already didn't know how to attract a new audience.

Then why didn't the Threeboot sell? The same exact reason, or it didn't appeal to the Legion fans that were still out there? And thank God for the absence of a potent hybrid of Twilight and Manga and in the Legion. That book is enough of a viruse as it is, and I don't need it affecting Legion. If DC needs to hype up LoSH by adding sparkly vampires, then they've lost all dignity.

I can again see the point that the tried to attract a new audience. I guess that's why they decided not to use Bouncing Boy and Matter-Eater Lad, even though some fangirls would've thought BB was "cute". DC was probably afraid they would consider Chuck like the mascot, like the monkey in Captain Planet. I'm a ranting too cynically?

Okay, not to get off topic, but in the spirit of waiting for #4, I did these.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5014944/1/Legion_of_3_Worlds_When_Chameleons_Congregate

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5017535/1/Legion_of_3_Worlds_When_Timber_Wolves_Wrestle

Both, probably. Both reboots alienated a number of readers - and, in a better world, that wouldn't have been a problem, because they would have found newer audiences.

What I want for the Legion - really, for more superhero comics - is the ability to market to more than one audience. Doing that well is the best way to success. The key is finding audiences that don't demand the exclusion of what the other wants.

The problem in the specific situation I suggested is getting past the notion on the part of other audiences that stuff made for girls is silly or beneath them. The attitude that leads to, for example, the second season of the animated series. What I was suggesting, I suppose, is like a situation not uncommon in manga and anime: a series designed to appeal to both young girls and adult males. A combination I doubt an American company or creator would choose.

I'm not saying that's the only way. I'm saying that not all superhero comics have to be (exclusively) aimed at males 20-40. (Considering the content of modern DC comics, I'd say many are aimed at over-40s, actually.) I suppose what's best is to have a series designed to catch readers when they're young that can hold their interest for a long time.

Hey, I jus thought of something concerning the missing Legionnaires. What if the Time Trapper has them? And, what if, Tellus tried to escape and that's how he landed in the grip of the 21st Century.

Johns is not so subtle. They are all probably on a mission retconned out of something, just like that "first" Legion of 3 timelines encounter - which came from nowhere.

You never know. Authors surprise us.

oh no, someone woke the vv typing beast.

girls read comics. girls read superhero comics. they tend to be less visible because they tend to shop in different venues (book stores and online) rather than venturing to the comic book store to be harassed or ignored.

That said...

manga has a higher appeal to EVERY DEMOGRAPHIC, young, old, male, female. it is kicking DC and Marvel's ass because:

1) comes in trades
2) modern pacing/story telling
3) available at bookstores
4) cartoon counterparts
5) pricing (180 page book for 10 bucks vs 3 bucks for 22 pages)
6) clearly marked volumes (i.e. vol 1, vol 2, col3)
7) easy to follow storylines without the necessity of 60 years of backstory
8) YOUNGER, FEMALE CHARACTERS THAT ARE RELATABLE.
9) diversity in subject matter.
10) toys
11) also available in WEEKLY anthology format (shonen jump, shojo beat, etc)

that's just a few, off the top of my head.

girl comics aren't defined as "girl gets saved by vampire". painfully, that's what the american market thinks and it's sad. people are unique snowflakes and they like....different things.

trust me, ladies like comics, it just isn't marketed very well to them. like someone said, even if something's written well, if it's on the moon, who's going to buy it? tokyopop took out ads in female magazines, on websites that kids frequent, etc. i don't think i've ever seen an ad for a comic on anything but sites that are comic book related.

unfortunately, japan makes crazy amounts of cartoons that funnel people into the comics. it's hard to compete with that. a lot of people have the xmen, batman and superman ingrained into their consciousness form cartoons. my MOM knows that superman came from krypton in a little ship and kryptonite hurts him and that he's clark kent, ok? she has never read a comic in her life. she just needed to watch a cartoon once.

i actually know a lot of female comic book readers that started out with dc and marvel, but eventually turned to manga instead. in my experience, as i got older, i went from a general "yay, every comic is awesome" feeling to gaining a more critical eye. and when manga flooded the market and i put things side by side and i went "...wow i like this manga stuff a lot better". and not even you know, consciously. but there was very obviously a point when i kept up with manga and not batman. on my end, it was simply an artwork thing, and then a story thing. the diversity is insane in japanese comics, just in the ones "marketed for women" in general.

EVEN in the just gay-themed ones, there's a crazy amount of diversity in subject matter. some are emo, some are older guys, some are funny, some are fantasy, some are very realistic and some are very over the top ridiculous. some are horror, some are cop dramas. And so called 'boy" manga almost always has characters and themes that are meant to attract different types of readers.

i've explained this dynamic to a coworker once but with video games. an american game will have one type of a guy and one type of girl. a japanese game will someone that's cute, someone nerdy, someone athletic, someone wild, someone dumb, someone smart, someone cool, someone really pretty, someone really emo.

this is why team books (LEGION!) are more appealing to a more diverse type of people (data which invariably gets read as "women like this comic"). because there are necessarily different types of people in it. get it??

American comics keep trying to feed their small, older, and dying base instead of expanding it. even when they do new and cool things, there's nothing to promote it to new readers. if someone told me that the blue beetle was a nice nerdy guy, i would have been all over that book. if someone told me that guy gardner was a funny, smart ass, i would have read his stuff.

unfortunately, there aren't a lot of good ways for people that aren't avid readers to find comics that they'll enjoy. even if there's a cartoon or a movie, the market will be final crisis-ing or secret invasion-ing all over the place, completely impenetrable. people are introduced to comics because they have a friend that's into comics. like i've never heard of a comic book club on a campus but there are VERY many manga/anime clubs on campuses.

frankly, as a girl turns into a lady, sometimes they learn about things like feminism and sexism and then they look at the books in their hands and come to very sad realizations. i recall the horrified look on my roommate's face when i told her that catwoman used to be a prostitute and wasn't just a bad ass lady that fought for animal rights like in the cartoon. just the fact that someone could say "girls like twilight" here as a staple of what women want in comics is very telling. and sad. even more telling? a frequent response to problems with sexism in american comics on pretty much eevvvvery board i've ever seen is: "just don't read it then" or "go read manga instead".

ahem

all that said, i will say that yes, legionnaires DID have a manga feel, but not in the way you think. 1) more focus given to relationships and friendships 2) greater variety of characters 3) not a little baby book.

so in summary: right now, all the market strategies i've seen have been "make this hard for someone new to read" and "try to get someone that buys a different comic book that we make to also buy this other comic" and "make a comic for women that is offensive" .

not a good plan.

even legion of three worlds. marketed via the final crisis loop. OH WONDERFUL, people that are already doused in comicbook trivia being exposed to the legion! i think the first issue made it very easy for someone who already reads dc/comics to read the legion, sure! but... the market's still too incestuous! i want people who don't normally read comics to read the legion! hopefully, when the new beginning comes, i'll be able to do that.

Uh, yeah. Mostly what she said.

Personally I'm not, in general, a huge fan of manga stylings. Often the pacing seems slow and the stories seem to take way too long to get where they're going. I'm not always in the mood for the big-eye thing, either.

That said, there's plenty American marketers could learn from its success here. Even a "normal" superhero comic would be more readily marketable outside the traditional venues in a longer, sturdier format than in the shorter, flimsier monthly ones.

Sometimes I think that a major reason I didn't hate Threeboot as much as some others is the simple reason that I got to read 6-18 segments together at once; as a novel, as they should be read to get a real feel for what the writer and artist wanted to do. Even if I wasn't completely on board for every last bit of it, at least I could get a clearer picture of it.

In addition to v v's comments about the horrid-looking Marvel Inflatables-- er, "Divas," I'd recommend that anyone who wants more insight into why being a female fan stunk two decades ago and doesn't seem to have improved much while I was away: Use your search engine and subscribe to the web page "When Fangirls Attack." (I use LJ's feed to read it, but that's not required.) There's a lot more to this issue than just, "Oh, girls are just different. They like sparkly xtian vampires."

Yeesh.

Oh, and v v. Don't forget. Chicks want lip gloss with superheroes on it. They don't want to buy action figures of heroines. Nope. Lip gloss. I mean, who wouldn't? That's why we read this stuff. As a delivery vehicle for cosmetics.

:rolleyes: I'm holding out for the "Legion of 3 Worlds" E-Z Bake Oven, personally...

Great post, vv. So much of what is wrong with comics these days is the entire marketing approach. The most easily accessible and diverse comics recieve little marketing at all by the big companies, while the things they do market are very hard to penetrate if you don't already buy comics.

you see, even with "the big eye thing", there's a very very LARGE diversity in the art stylings. look up blade of the immortal or and then compare the art in that to pokemon or something. what you have to remember is that the most stylized, exaggerated ones are generally for younger audiences. just like... american cartoons! think about the giant giant eyes and super simplified art styles in american cartoons (bugs bunny? giant eyes!). it's because they're more expressive and easier for younger readers to understand the emotions going on. look at samurai champloo, that's much much different from something like sugar sugar rune. but you know, even that is too simplisitc, you'll get realistically drawn cartoons that are for kids and simplified ones that are for adults.

the key is diversity!

oh yeah, the lip gloss. or the weird shirts about how our boyfriend are superheroes. not just... the regular shirts in girl sizes

but american comics can differ too but it seems like that's the exception and not the rule... no one would confuse middleton for perez, you know! i think there's a lot of misunderstanding for both fandoms.

Actually, back in the 80s and 70s, in my opinion, anime and manga were like comics are today. I might be wrong and I'm willing to admit it, but look at Bubblegum Crisis, Maison Ikkoku, Urusei Yatsura (after the 70s), Cutey Honey, City Hunter. They were, seemingly, drawn and animated in the same style. Then around the 90s styles started to vary and you could easily tell the difference between, say, Big O and Pokemon, Death Note and Bleach, Miyazaki films and the Animated Matrix. Even American artists and writers have started doing manga, well, Japanese-styled comics. Plenty of it is coming from Tokyopop.

ahh i still think there are a lot of fundamental differences there. again, anime and manga had a diversity. it just didn't all get brought over. i'm sure you've seen sailor moon. that art style has its roots in the 70s with things like rose of versailles which was and is very influential on japanese manga. there was also detective conan and lupin. it's more that you were mostly seeing things from very specific companies that only wanted to bring over or send over a specific type. but you know i wouldn't say a lot of the art styles that you mentioned are similar at all! i would never conflate rumiko takahashi with something like bubblgegum crisis! those look nothing a like to me!

I'M SO SORRY THIS IS A LO3W THREAD. UH. so... are we all excited for it on wednesday?!!

Uh duh. Why else would I be doing those three Lo3W drabbles recently? ;p Hope you liked that B5 one I did.

Bout Ms. Takahashi and BGC, the manga, sure. But the way the anime was styled, some people might. Not me, though. I can recognize the differences in a heartbeat. Except for the fact that both her animes and BGC have great music.

And anyway, I know all about Rose of Versailles. That was the inspiration behind Revolutionary Girl Utena

I do see your point thought. Thanx for the honesty.

Actually, this was some of your most interesting series of posts ever. And I agree to it almost completely. I just think that DC is not going to solve the Legion problem with L3W, or Adventure Comics or whatever they come up with.
Manga-style, Gilbert Hernandez writing it, whatever you choose: it will be doomed the moment it crosses over with the 20th Century and Dan Didio decides to change everything in the second month of it (just like it did with 3boot, or Titans, or even by not publishing Ambush Bug #6).

Excited about L3W? Yeah, but not as excited as I was in August.

I, however, don't like manga. To be honest, Pokemon didn't help the matter, and my son used to be a huge fan. The closest thing I own to manga is Batman: Gotham Knight.
Otherwise, no thanks.

(snip)



Well, I did used to own quite a bit of Tezuka, just to study the technique. Of course, now that it's all been translated I can't actually afford it. Figures. I still have my original hardback of Kobayashi's What's Michael, though.

I don't know how I became so xenophobic about sequential art. In music and food, it's not that way at all. I have the same issues with most European comics. Never got into the biggies like Herge and whatsisface who did Asterisk. It's not that they're awful, there's just something about them that I don't assimilate well, if you know what I mean.

I believe I speak for us all when I say HOLY SH!T!!! That ending!

Here's as much as I'm spoiling...

Geoff gives Bart his snappy comebackitude back, no pun intended, and he manages to make a Disney reference at one point. And it's a good one!

Prime: When I get my hands on you you're toast!
Bart: With jelly.

It turns out that NE Garth actually has a brain to all you naysayers who naysay, and the humor doesn't end with this bit...

NE Garth: Stick with the electrons, Spark! Hit him with a negative discharge--I'll provide the positive and we'll trap him in a feedback loop!

Livewire: I never boss MY sister around like that.

Lightning Lass: If you're anything like my brother you THINK you don't.

The quarreling between the Querls doesn't stop...

We lose some Legionnaires, two...

And about the Trapper. He's not Cos, he's not Lori, he's not Glorith, and he's certainly not a Controller.

And we learn something about Starman in JSA. He has trait he shares with Dewey from Malcolm in the Middle. They both like candles.

Speaking of sarcasm, kid... here's a little nugget from Superboy-Prime:

"You guys are just way too cool for me.

...

Hahaha! I was totally being sarcastic--!"

So I just got my copy of ish 4. Not bad little twist on the cover..bart replacing the two querls. Uhm..Overal it's got some good moments. Some things I kinda knew were going to happen..but I'm not sure I liked the ending with the Trapper. I was really hoping to just..I dunno..have him be someone not whohe was >_< That sorta cheapens the trapper a bit in my mind. I rather liked Cos! Trapper, but I dunno...hopefully this'll just be one aspect of the trapper.