Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

Ricardo and Ion...I'm glad Superman's back and Johns IMHO, is writing a far more enjoyable Legion than the 5YG, or the ZH Legion, or the 3Boot, or the end of the Levitz run.

It's selling better than any of those as well. A lot better.

He's writing to me what is the Legion I want to read, and he's also probably the only thing keeping the team from sliding even further into obscurity, the direction it has been going since it was removed from the Superman myhthos...which results in less respect from DC, and less chance of continued publication.

Geoff Johns and Dan Didio aren't the reason the Legion gets so little respect now. It was removing it from the Superman mythos and isolating it that lead to that, and it's been that way for an incredibly long time now. It gets no respect because it doesn't sell well and it's fans are by and large miserably unhappy with the product they are getting, to the point that creators are virtually driven from the book.


Johns version hasn't sold less than 50k issues in a month since 2006, that is what will get respect from DC. Meanwhile, and all those other non-Superman Legions haven't sold 50 k regularly, ever. Ever. 30K and under, unless it was being rebooted, or some sort of Superman related gimmick(promising a fix or a return to what was) was involved.


No, regardless of what Didio did or didn't do to the 3boot..and you guys need to realize that Shooter was rude even to Francis, or let's just say he was overly blunt to the point of stupidity in an interview. Francis probably wasn't that enthused about working with him any longer. You'd be hard pressed to tell that Jim Shooter is the polished and experienced veteran and Francis a relative baby of the industry based on their handling of that entire situation. Shooter put his foot firmly in his mouth and it was Francis was that handled it like a polished vet.

That is entirely my opinion of course, but Jim Shooter's conduct was far from professional, and I am as surprised by that as anyone. Francis Manapul? He handled himself professionally...and he did while coming here and interacting with the fans regularly to boot.

Shooter certainly didn't conduct himself as someone blackballed and virtually out of the industry. On the contrary, he acted like he was doing DC and Comics a favor, when really it was entirely the other way around. And I say this as an extreme fan of Jim Shooter.

Yeah if they'd done everything he asked it probably would have been the right thing to do and beneficial in the long run, because the man does know how to produce good comics. The problem is that he isn't in charge of those decisions and not getting his way is no reason to fly off the handle and make a complete ass of himself in the process. That's the epitome of unprofessionalism.

But anyway...I digress. Regardless of what Didio did to the 3boot(which wasn't exactly popular among those that were reading it, and there weren't many of those)he's fixing the Legion to me, or at least he's trying more than anyone else has.


In any case, Johns is a Legion hero to me, and no matter what Didio is doing to the rest of the DC Uni, he's the guy in the charge when the Legion is getting fixed as far as I am concerned. This could change, but I don't think it will as this L03W is a certifiable smash by todays standards, and it's going to be respected for that reason.

Even if Didio was running some scam tease about Superboy and Superman with no intent of paying it off...it's no different than what DC has been doing with the Legion for 20 years now...except that it's selling well in a down market, and that is going to raise the eyebrows that truly need to be raised to fix this book.


And it's also going to get it's own series...of course it is, because it can make them money.


I applaud Johns for being the first Legion writer to put creative integrity above just having a job in a long time...


The rest all knew it was next to impossible to sell this book the way DC was packaging it. They wrote the stories that destoyed and confused this book, and they did it for their own career benefit.

Johns? He refused to write the Legion without Superman in it, that's why he's getting his way.

Johns is the guy with the extreme creative integrity here, no matter how popular and how well his books sell.


And one other thing...Shooter, Waid, Giffen, they all wanted Superman in the Legion as well. In fact that was major point of contention for Jim Shooter. It was a corporate mandate that dictated Supes not be in it. A decision governed by worries about royalties and copyrights and ownership disputes...made by lawyers and accountants in the dark back rooms of Time Warner, it was not creative purity or a true vision of those creators that wrote it, or anything of that sort. It was a corporate mandate.


Johns isn't Goliath...he's David, and so is this version of the Legion. It's the others that were Goliath and Goliath's will...and Goliath was smashing the fans.

LO3W is selling well because those fans that got smashed...they know David when they see him.

I agree with most of what Superboy says.

Personally I feel that when the Legion are involved with the Superman family they are always relegated to the level of subordinate characters, so on a creative story-telling level I prefer them to stand on their own.

BUT without Superman, they become another team of obscure characters like the Doom Patrol, Omega Men or L.E.G.I.O.N. and when you look at the publication history of those books, it becomes clear that in the DCU, teams without recognisable big players don't last.

Paul Levitz knew this and interacted with the Super cousins just enough to keep the sales going, for example when DC launched "Tales of.." Supergirl was brought in to boost sales.

Geoff Johns is writing (and Perez drawing)a book that most long term Legion fans are raving about but at the same time is attracting casual readers with little or no interest in the Legion. That is a win-win situation for fans and DC alike.

Compare that to say Giffen's version (5YL) where the art and plot were so convoluted that many Legion fans and the vast majority of comics buyers were put off even attempting to get into it. I know guys like Ricardo loved it but really this is reflective of a small minority.

Johns has got it right (despite the niggly retcons) at just about every level and the sales demonstrate it. Now all we need is a firm vision to take the series forward and produce an on-going title that we can all enjoy AND can sell well. If that means putting up with a 'Superman and the Legion' concept then so be it.

i keep reading everywhere that shooter was rude to fjm... sorry but when did that happen? after his infamous inteview on CBR was published, didn't shooter even made the site post an addendum just to clarify that he didn't mean to say anything bad against manapul? i mean, shooter had already said a lot of very bad things against DC, i don't see why he should have clarified that if not because of a true feeling of respect towards manapul. i know shooter can be a difficult person sometimes, but i think it's unfair to blame him for things he didn't say.

i think shooter was mad at DC because he really meant to make the threeboot work. i think he was meant to believe that that was the reason DC hired him in the first place, instead of being just a "ferryman" to drive the series to its already planned limbo. i think it's clear from shooter's interviews how he kept putting ideas on the table and how DC kept rebounding them. in the end, they even cut his run 4 issue shorter. i understand how a "misunderstanding" like that can cause friction...

anyway, i'm INCREDIBLY HAPPY for what johns did to the legion, and i agree with superboy that stuff like L3W is how legion stories should be told. i really feel like my love for comics is coming back, since the legion is my favourite comic book franchise! yayyy!!!

That we have even fans talking about comic book franchises really saddens me. The Legion is not a comic book franchise. It may be a franchise on TV or when Mattell do figures but the characters and books are owned by DC - they are not franchised. The sooner we get rid of the phrase in relation to comics, the sooner we might start getting comics for the sake of good story telling, for fans and for comic sales, not for whether the action figures will sell or the TV rights will go up or down.

Rant over

jeez, i don't think my message deserved i reply as bitter as that. what about "innocent until proven guilty"?

i said "franchise" in lack of a better word for... huh... how can i say it... comic book series that go on forever and pass from the hands of an author to another?
because, you know, it's not like every single legion story is good. i read some awful legion books in my life, but it just happens with that kind of serial. yet, overall, i like the legion concept so much and i enoyed so much the good legion stories i read that, in the end, it's still my favourite book.
i just didn't want to use the word "book" because i actually didn't like every single legion book. but i like the idea behind the legion.

is it clear now? in the future could you please avoid to jump at people's jugular before asking them to clarify what they really meant? does communication sadden you too?
thank you in advance for your understanding

You read what I read, and IMO Shooter himself felt the need to further clarify his comments...

And btw, here's an interview with Francis about his up and coming work and comments on the Legion:


http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010926-Manapul.html

It is what it is.I'm not exactly the first guy to say Shooter can rub some people the wrong way...no matter his intentions, and after reading that interview, that particular talent of his was on full display.

Shooter was blunt and said some stuff that most people considered offensive and sort of insulting to Francis, he came out and clarified...and Francis handled the entire thing like a pro.

I'm not saying there is bad blood between them, but it obviously wasn't the creative Utopia of the greatest series in history being callously trampled upon by Dan Didio and Geoff Johns that a few are attempting to paint it as being.




I think Jim Shooter is a very smart man, possibly the most knowledgable creator still active in the industry due to his tutelage under both Stan Lee and Mort Weissinger and his stints as writer, EIC and even publisher(or what ever he was at Valiant) and he's had smash successes at all 3 companies.


He's also a guy that doesn't mince words and the end result of that is that he's a pariah with a ton of enemies in the industry on both the creative and editorial sides of the aisle.

DC and Dan Didio essentially owed him nothing, they were generously giving him a chance to come back into the industry...and Jim wanted to make giant leaps instead of baby steps.

He is a notorious perfectionist and beyond that he wanted he and his project to the star, and DC wanted him to be a supporting player, at least at the start.

Right wrong, it was what it was...that was the chance he had.

The irony of it is all is that Mr. Shooter acted exactly in a fashion that he was critical of creators acting when he was EIC at Marvel. He ground his axe in print(with Carl Icahn and Ron Perelman)...and attempted to assume defacto ownership of the DC owned property...the same thing he dogged John Byrne and Claremont for doing once upon a time.

Conflicts ensued and Mr. Shooter is likely done with DC after this.



Don't get me wrong...I have no doubt that had Shooter gotten his way he would have been more successful than he was and the book and story would have been much better than it was. I have no doubt in his heart he wanted this book to blow the industries socks off...but he didn't get his way, and that's what happens often, especially when you are coming from an exile.

And he didn't handle the creative conflicts with a great deal pf professionalism...he pretty much proved most of his critics right when he took the dirty laundry more or less public in that interview.


I never had a doubt he'd do that at some point BTW. I just didn't think he do it that quickly. Doing it that soon is likely what burned his bridge IMHO.


But my take on it is that he is a pefectionist and wanted to step back into the starring role and DC wanted him to be a supporting player, at least for now. That's really what it was all about IMHO....and it is Geoff Johns time to star now...he's the horse carrying DC, and Shooter was hired as a subordinate, not as a competitor to their star writer.

And there's no way I will ever believe that someone as intelligent, knowledgable and experienced as Jim Shooter is in this industry...didn't know what he was going up against from the onset. I knew...the LS and Action Legion were already underway with Geoff Johns at the helm when he was hired.

Shooter is not a stupid man. There's no way he didn't understand what he was getting into before he got into it....and to top all this off, he got 13 issues to make something happen, that's a pretty long time by todays standards.

I agree with most of this...I don't really think Superman is overshadowing the Legion in LO3W really. He's just another Legionaire, although one with a greater stature, which actually makes sense even in story.

Personally...I like Superboy and the Legion better than Superman and the Legion.


I don't think Superman has ever really overshadowed the Legion except for a few points...

I mean in the sixties yeah he shared the lead in Adventure with them...but they also got prominent guest starring roles in the Superman family of titles like Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane and Action and Superman. It was a mutually beneficial relationship that greatly increased the Legion's exposure.

They were a bigger part of the Superman family than Krypto, Supergirl, Ma and Pa Kent and Jor-El and Lara ever were. They were right there after Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen in terms of importance to the Superman family. Scratch that...they were only after Lois. That is how integral the relationship was.


And now? I see Mon-El about to take the lead in Action Comics. I see the Legion all over the place in Superman right now...I don't see Superman overshadowing Mon-El there. I see Mon-El benefitting greatly from being re-integrated into the Superman mythos. They are encroaching on his territory as much he's on theirs...and it's helping them more.

Sorry Mr Kayak. It wasn't meant as a personal dig at you just a generic aversion to comic book characters being cosidered as franchises. This was something that Dan DiDio started at DC and now is permeating into the fan base. As you gather, I hate it. But please no offence to you.

Validus could be any age, we've just never seen him in an earlier DCU before.
The Eye of Ekron was shown to be functioning in .LEGION's era, too.

I could see Dox controling him the way Tharok does in the Legion's era and since he doesn't talk, that we know of, he could be given the name Tribulus by the REBELS.

Should be interesting to find out.

Finally got a copy--some random thoughts:

Fantastic artwork, but was surprised the 3 pages from Final Crisis #0 did not fit smoothly into the battle which began in the previous issue, as Perez handled all the art chores. Perhaps, Tyr's gun hand repairs itself really quickly?

Smallville: Noticed a small picture above Lex's bed depicted a figure wearing an all-too-familiar shield emblem across the chest (when "Super-Boy" is a myth) is a secret friendship already in place?

Agree with the rest that Live Wire choosing to retain an artificial arm is strange.

Jenni was supposed to be significantly older than Bart, but as they say girls mature faster than boys, maybe that's the way she does remember things. That's probably Iris West carrying baby Bart.

The panel showing the initial meeting of 3 Legions is missing at least two members--Kal-El and XS--Starman already confirmed their presences.
Johns' Neoadventurous line-up seems to be from Adventure #372-Action #392.
Reboot from between pages of Legion v.2 #63, enroute to their fateful encounter with Tangleweb (however, Brainy clearly arrived separately from a later time period as evidenced by the appearance of Koko). Confirming this is the enigmatic mission to the timestream early in their history once mentioned by Cosmic Boy.
Threeboot anytime before issue #11.

Not perturbed by the "revelation" that time travel can lead to alternate dimensions as that was precisely the reason why Brainy and Circadia Senius constructed the Time Beacon in the first place.

Bart's return was hardly surprising but welcome, however cannot see how electricity could form him a completely new body...

Validus did speak in his original appearances in Adv. 352-3. He also spoke in that Grell-drawn story with Duplicate Boy back in the 70s.

I always found it weird that DC allowed this in the old universe, when each Earth was supposed to have a fixed timeline. Now, I suppose, it's not so weird, but Johns seems to persist in the idea that one future can somehow still be more valid. I just wish DC had gone with Waid's idea. It would've freed them from ever having to do a story like this (to resolve time-travel-related continuity) ever again.

What did he say?

S
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But, I just read REBELS and I don't know if the two are related, anyway.

For one thing, in the story I didn't see any 'brain' part on the top of his head, at all.

And, Tribulus seems to be, at least in the beginnning
S
P
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member of a bounty team, rather than a REBEL.
Can't wait to see what happens next!

I can't remember exactly without looking it up, but I know he says, "I want out" or something like that while trying to break out of his cell in Adv. 353. After that I think he says,"I will go with you," to Sun Boy after he makes him the offer to join the posse. Later in the story, when Tharok orders him to kill the Legion, he says something to the effect that Tharok is evil and he'll kill him instead.

In the Grell story, he says his giant rattle is "broken" and "no more fun" after Lightning Lad shatters it. At least I think it was Lightning Lad. Kind of abusive parenting, if you ask me, breaking your own kid's toys and all. Sheesh! :-)

here's the actual quote from the jim shooter interview, in case someone else would like to read it (the full interview is at this link http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18623):

i really don't see any insult here. on the contrary, it seems to me like shooter PRAISED manapul's work! even the CBR journalist said that in the article.
shooter just said that fjm (who, as far as i know, is still kind of a "rookie") is going to be a huge star, someday. he just has to keep working hard. as fjm himself said, it's something an old coach could have said to his most promising quarterback.

i agree. i'm not saying that they loved each other. but that's not a good reason to misunderstand shooter's words, which appear pretty clear to me.

we all know how shooter cares about visual storytelling, with his being a sort of a "storyboard artist" himself. if i remember correctly, during his years as EIC at marvel shooter even made up some sort of internal school to teach his artists crafts like storytelling, i think one of the teachers was john romita sr. again, i'm not 100% sure but i strongly remember something to have read about like that.
so, i'm not surprised to hear shooter tried to teach something to manapul, too.

i don't know shooter personally, but i think he's just an earnest person. you know, the kind of guy that always tells you what he thinks.
maybe his problem is just that he doesn't know HOW to tell people the truth, which most of the times is heavy. i mean, you should never throw something heavy on someone's face, shouldn't you?

hmm, i don't think i got what you meant, here. do you mean he acted like the legion was his own property?

with that i agree. i didn't like that interview too.


none taken

happy to read everything is ok!

Yes, he talks a ton in 353, especially before he actually gets released!
He doesn't use kiddy speak either.

I looked things up in the Archives.
Thanks for the leads (and you have a great memory, jim!)

The next 2 times he appears, in Shady's introduction and in Supes & LSH 203, he doesn't talk at all.
Maybe he's voiceless because of mind control by others.
He's frightening that way.
He killed IK in that story without even knowing it.

In Supes & LSH 219, he says, "Flee, little ones! I'm stealing part of this hemisphere!"
THEN, he says no more fun.

He's a bit schizo, really.

He actually appears 3 more times between Shady's intro and SLSH 203: Adv. 378 and Sup. 190 & 198. Don't think he speaks in those either.

Not sure where to post this, but the LO3W thread seems as good as any:

http://www.newsarama.com/common/media/video/player.php?aid=26058

Video clip of blogger John Siuntres talking to Paul Levitz. He basically asks Levitz, isn't it fun to see YOUR Legion again in LO3W. Levitz dodges the question, answering that his only recent Legion fun was seeing the Legion on Smallville, which he enjoyed.

If nothing else, this shows what a master of tact Levitz is. Who knows if he's read the 3Boot, LO3W, or anything he publishes recently. But, I imagine he's quite attuned to the larger geopolitical of the Legion lately, and doesn't want any part of them. And he even avoids hurting Johns's feelings by complimenting the Smallville episode. Smart man.

But,. . . the Smallville episode with the Legion was fantastic!
He SHOULD have enjoyed it!

say, is that so wrong of me to be hopeful that Dr. Mayavale to show up in L3W? is that BAD?

Yes. Off with your head.

Read in an old interview (circa 1982) that although he loves the Legion, Levitz does not read the Legion while not writng it. Back then he recorded all Legion facts in a notebook and was not fond of updating it, when necessary. Given the Legion's turmoil of the ensuing decades, one can only wonder if that notebook still exists...

I've described the Legion as a 'franchise' in another thread. Was that a dig at me? I used the word 'franchise' for convenience. Just to describe 'a comic book metaseries'. And anyway, it *is* a franchise. That is the business reality. The whole point is that how we as fans see it and how the comic book company sees it is different.

I really have to stop posting on comic book message boards. Way too many humourless fanboys who treat it like a bloody religion. I'm sick of it. Yes it's a franchise and I describe it as such. Live with it.

I wrote that last post in a big of anger. I should clarify-when I used the word 'franchise' in that other thread it was just as a convenient term for 'a DC comics property'. That's all. Innocuous as anything. And I get someone jumping down my throat at me and ranting about some comics fandom hobby horse of his that has sod all to do with me!

Yeah it made me angry. And all too typical of the Srs Bizness attitude of comics fans. Even on a very well moderated board like this one. I'm tired of it. I don't think I'll be posting again.

Okay, it was wrong of me to interrupt the conversation flow with nothing to add.

I don't think Legion is a franchise. A franchise would be something like the last two Batman movies before Begins. That isn't Legion.

You guys, I'm gonna post this on ff.net, but it's a little thing I came up with about all three versions of LL meeting. Something else else to keep the rest of you entertained.

--

"So, uh, I couldn't help but notice you're missing an arm." The third Lightning Lad says to Live Wire.

"Huh? Oh! I didn't even notice I still have this thing." Live Wire said, a bit surprised he didn't notice his robot arm earlier.

"The one I had was a lot better." The first, older, married Lightning Lad says a bit smugly.

"You lost an arm too?" Live Wire asks his older, married counterpart.

"Yep."

"Whoa. You two BOTH lost an arm?" The third one says, surprised and shocked.

"Looks that way." Live Wire says.

"How?"

"Space whale." Lightning Lad explains.

"Mekt." Live Wire says. "How'd yours grow back?" Live Wire asks.

"Some doctor I saved a while back from Prince Evillo was so grateful he grew it back for me." Garth offhandidly replies.

"Cool." Live Wire says.

"Another thing. Why were you in Element Lad's body?" Threeboot asks.

"I died." He explains.

"What?!" Threeboot exclaims.

"No way. So did I!" The older Garth says.

"Really? How?" Live Wire asks.

"Zaryn the Conqueror. You?" Lightning Lad asks again.

"Element Lad went nuts."

"Sorry 'bout that." The oldest says sympathetically.

"How'd you come back?" Live Wire asks.

"Some bizarre ritual with lightning rods, and Imra's pet Proty gave up his life for me." Garth says.

"You're lucky. You could've come back with Proty's mind instead of yours." Live Wire points out.

"God forbid."

"I am beginning to see a pattern and I really, REALLY, don't like where it's going." Threeboot Garth worries.

"Yeah. I see one too." Live Wire points out.

"And from the looks of it..." Lightning Lad trails off. He and Live Wire both eye Threeboot Garth with sly smiles forming on their lips. Threeboot Garth worries even more as the other two sling their arms over his shoulders.

"Hey don't worry. We'll be sure to get you a really cool robot arm like mine." Live Wire tells him.

"I don't want a robot arm!" Threeboot yells.

"Doesn't look like you have a choice there, buddy." Garth tells him.

"Just because it happened to you two doesn't mean it'll happen to me, right? Right?!"

"Maybe." Live Wire says.

"What's the problem? We came back." Garth points out.

"I don't care! I don't want to die in the first place!" Threeboot Garth yells.

"Hey. Not up to us." Lightning Lad tells him.

"I want to live! I WANT TO LIVE!" Threeboot runs out of the room screaming. Live Wire looks at his older counterpart, and the both go-

"High five!"