Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

I just noticed something-issue 5 on DC's site has this info:
This is it! The time- stopping finale to this FINAL CRISIS tie-in arrives as Superman, Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl battle (the) Time Trapper while Prime and the Legion of Super-Villains engage in an all-out war with the Legions! Leading into the all-new ADVENTURE COMICS #1!

DC Universe | 32pg. | Color | $3.99 US

On Sale March 25, 2009

First- Time STOPPING finale. Could this be another white out? Also, there is one LL, one CB and one SG mentioned, not 2-3 of each-interesting. It also mentions "Prime," not Superboy or Superman Prime. Last but not least, either someone made a mistake (DC? No way!) or we get to pay the price of a 40 page book for 32 pages, just 'cause it's pretty. I think it's supposed to be 40 pages and someone just typed this up hurriedly. Like "...Saturn Girl battle Time Trapper..."
Hello? THE Time Trapper! Complete sentences people!

Is it possible that Proty I might be in the lightning rod?

Isn't that all they've ever been promoting for this series? All they ever talk about is characters from... I can't bear to call it the New Earth Legion, because that's what the Threeboot Legion used to be, until they reassigned the Action Annual Mon-El. This is misuse of the multiverse: reassigning a character or story to another universe after the fact.

The dates have been moved farther back AGAIN! Last week, LSH #50 and Lo3W #3 were both shipping Jan 28. NOW, Lo3W #3 is scheduled for February 11. That's 4 friggin' months between issues! Talk about a lack of respect for one of the enduring teams. And of course, #4 is stil listed for 2 weeks later and we know that will change. I am not surprised, just venting. Thank you.

^^^

Presumably this is the reason why the Legion aren't in the first arc of Adventure Comics now.

And how many times are DC going to move the date of #3 without removing the artwork for #2 from the listing.

Pathetic

One has to hope that these dates don't have to do with any health issues.

I'll wait forever so long as Mr. Perez et al are happy and healthy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it found out by someone on this board (Vee?) that George Perez is not the one to blame for these delays?

If the information is true, then DC owes it to Mr. Perez to publicly exonerate him lest it affect his professional reputation.

It's not Perez and Johns...it's about the litigation with the Siegel family. That's what it's always been about.

And of course DC is going to let Johns and Perez get thrown under the bus on this...just like they did Giffen and the Bierbaums, and Mark Waid etc. And you'll never hear anything from Johns or Perez to the contrary being the company men they are.

DC will wind up with egg on it's face from this one though...no one with the slightest bit of knowledge of Perez and Johns is going to believe they are responsible for this degree of lateness, not on their worst day in the industry.

I have a hard time believing this is due to the litigation from the Siegel family in that I can't see DC green lighting this, be willing to pay Johns and Perez for the work and pull them off of other projects for a book that DC knew there would be problems.

I do think DC should state what is the delay, even if it's a one line statement. It drives me insane that they know delays bug fans but don't bother to explain why these delays happen.

Well there is a court date for this month and all the LO3W stuff has been pushed back beyond this month.

If it's about the money and DC not wanting the Siegels to get any, or at the least not without having an agreement in place, so they'll know how much of a hit they are going to take, which is exactly what will happen if Superboy appears in a Legion story, or the Legion appears in Smallville, DC certainly isn't going to announce anything along those lines.

They aren't gong to say something like...we're trying to make sure the Siegels don't get that much money.

#1. It's bad PR.
#2. It's not exactly going to endear them to the Siegels when it comes time to negotiate licensing fees.
#3. Jerry Siegel is a worst the 3rd most important creator in Legion history, and they probably don't want to give the Siegels any new ideas.

Furthermore, this book is selling really well and DC would probably prefer those sales figures not be noticed by the Siegel's lawyers or any potential future arbitrators, they certainly aren't going to go out of their way to make them noticable.

I cannot think of a single reason DC would want any one involved on the opposing side of the litigation to see be aware of just how well L03W sold so far. There's not a single reason...it can only hurt DC's bargaining position.

Furthermore, you can see the footprint of DC being worried about this all the way back in the 5YG era when the Superman creative team started giving the Legion guys completely ridiculous edicts about Superman appearing in Legion stories.

It's completely ludicrous to think Johns and Perez are behind this. George Perez could have had the third issue out by now with his good hand tied behind his back. Johns writes like 63 titles monthly and I can't think of the last time he was responsible for a late book.

The lack of an announcement tells you all you need to know IMHO.


As for how it got greenlighted...simple, because DC needs a hit, and because they thought a working agreement would be in place by now. There was supposed to be a framework for a resolution in place back in September....didn't work out that way, the Siegels are playing hardball and the courts aren't laying down for DC's legal team.


Pushing it all back is called erring on the side of caution in the legal sense IMHO.

I don't think anyone really understands that under the current ruling, DC doesn't own the copyright to the Superboy character...the Sigels do...100%. Smallville too...


IMHO DC is hoping for some sort of favorable ruling this month that will give the Sigels incentive to go ahead and cut a deal clearing up both the Superboy and Superman rights...they've certainly got nothing to lose by trying to wear the Siegels down....it's not like Joanie is getting any younger, and the other younger heirs are probably going to be easier to buy...with Joanie it's personal. IMHO.

To give you guys an example of how manipulative DC is being with this...

Let's a take a look at how they have handled Superboy Prime. They lost the rights to the Superboy character...Kon-El died..and Superboy Prime suddenly became Superman Prime...

That's well known...but take a closer look at what happened with the Superman case and Superboy Prime...

DC had provided the courts with a black and white house ad for Action Comics #1...prior to the ruling on Action #1 and Superman.

That ruling lead to DC being sole owner of any caped flying character that's like Superman...who appears in a black and white costume....even though the Siegels own Action #1...

How ahead of the curve was DC on that? For the entire year before that ruling...Superboy Prime had been wearing a Black and Silver costume.

I can't prove anything but it seems to me DC legal knew they'd get that black and white costume on the basis of that ad...at the very least...before the ruling was even made. That's what they pay those lawyers for. They knew they could protect Prime in case of a disaster by calling him Superman Prime and putting him in that black cosume.

Somewhere along the way in that case they got some sort of ruling that allowed them to call him Superboy Prime again...

But you notice Prime still doesn't appear in the traditional Superman costume ala Action #1...he's half naked, he's in the Anti-Monitors armor...but he's never clearly in the Superman costume for any more than a 1 panel flashback at best.


Maybe it's just me but it's not hard to see how DC is manipulating this..it's a war of attrition for one of the most valuable literary properties there is...and if they have to nickel and dime the Siegels till the bitter bloody end frsutrating them every step of the way, then that's what they are going to do.

And we Legion fans aren't squat when it comes to the value of Superman.

I don't think it's a coincidence Prime was wearing the Black costume for a year before that ruling on the black costume was made though...I think it's pretty obvious why they did that.


IMHO, the only way the creators are responsible for this is if they are getting orders to re-write the story...

DC could do that, they could keep stalling and circumventing, and still put it off on the creators that way...instead of coming out and saying what it's really all about.

They are never going to say what it's really all about...

If you read the correspondence between DC and Joanie Siegel throughout the years...it's pretty obvious that DC was aware of all this owwnership stuff coming to a head as early as the late 70's. And it does effect the Legion because the LEgion was so heavily tied into the Superboy and Smallville mythos, noto mention Jerry Siegel created just about everything in the Legion's Universe that Jim Shooter didn't..and Superboy was the one they could lose complete ownership of. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if the pratfalls of this case were what lead to Superboy being pulled out of the Legion back in 1978...which BTW, coincides with right around the time the copyright laws were changed to give the Siegels another shot at Superman, and potential full ownership of Superboy and all his mythos.


It's about the money...it's not about the professionalism of Mr. George Perez, not on his worst day.

BTW, it wouldn't suprise me if the entire reason Superboy Prime was created in the first place was to give DC some backdoor legal claim to the Superboy character and name...it may be something they tried in the Superboy litigation...it may be something they have yet to try.

They certainly didn't create him with the intent of him being a major character at that time...as they exiled him within just a few months of his creation....but what his creation did accomplish was that they did have a Superboy, who wasn't raised in Smallvile...wasn't rocketed from the planet Krypton(he was telported), didn't have a girlfriend named Lana Lang...and wasn't raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent...all things the Siegels now own.

Not only does it give them a backdoor claim to Superboy...it gives them a Superman unlike that one which first appeared in Action #1.

I'm telling you guys...Time Warner is a huge corporation, and Superman might just be the most valuable literary property of them all...there is no way they were just casually aware of the fact that they might lose him. That they didn't cover their bases. Nor do I believe they thought the battle with the Siegels was over.

If you think about it all...all the stuff with the Legion since the Crisis makes sense. The de-empphasization of Superman as the main DC hero and emphasis on Batman(who is theirs totally) over the past 20 years...the Byrne revision of the Superman mythos. The crappy Superman films.

Even the exile of Superboy Prime and Kal-L Superman at the end of crisis makes sense...as they made the Superman in Action #1 and Superboy separate from the contemporary Superman.

What also makes sense is their return 20 years after the exile...which I believe is right around the max time they could be out of print before DC would lose any rights to them...I think it's 20 years. 1986-2005...

But all this stuff over the past 20 years, safe to say Superman isn't as valuable now as he could have been, especially as a movie property...so that is one battle DC has already won.


IMHO...it's definitely about the money....even if it means devaluing the character short term...like oh say, turning him into a maass mudering villain and despicable murderer. Or a crazy old man.


One thing that isn't up for debate IMHO...Kal-L, Superboy(the real one) and cast, even Prime...they remain popular inspite of DC acting like they don't(DC barely acts like they exist), with their handling of them.


Anyone think it was highly unusual that a second printing of LO3W #1 occurred without a major announcement by DC?

And yes there was one...I have it.


I thought it was unusual at first...but now I don't...it's not unusual at all when you think about it for a bit...


Just like it's not unusual that Superman's 70th birthday has passed with barely a word mentioning it from DC.

Redemption for Prime? I can see the possibilities...he is theirs 100% after all....and he's already got a cool factor in tune with this generation.


But just about nothing done with Superman, Superboy, the Legion over the past 20 years makes much sense from a creative or commercial standpoiunt...but it all makes sense if you look at it from the perpective of Superman being a character they knew they might lose the rights too...something that it is obvious DC was aware of based on the correspondence between the Siegels and DC dating back to the late 70's and early 80's.

I just heard that the estates of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have filed suit. Though all four received the compensation agreed upon, members of the estates feel they should also receive heaven points for every soul redeemed through reading of the Gospels.

Meanwhile, publication of a fifth Gospel according to St. Python, which purportedly details how the old, water into wine thing was really a misinterpretation of a jewish fable, "Water into Whine," has been put on hold until distribution rights to the name "Jesus" can be firmly established.

Attorneys on both sides have signed up for next season's "Biggest Loser."

oh god... does this possibly mean that the 'redemption' line in Lo3W could lead into the creation of a DC owned 'Superboy' that could have a career with 'a' Legion, bring it full circle?

I'm not sure if I like that or not... it has some cool potential, but the thought of the possible manipulations behind it just boggle the mind.

Newsarama has a Final Crisis 6 spoiler that takes place AFTER Lo3W. You've been warned:

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=25224#comments

Wow. That thing looks like the original's bigger, meaner, older brother.

I wonder what the purpose of Brainiac 5's new coat is? It doesn't seem to have any obvious pockets for functionality. Is it like a high tech lab coat?

Ok, so I was just wanting to get this thread off of post #666. Sue me.

Just looked on DC's web site, and in a refreshing change of pace, Lo3W # 3 has been moved UP to February 4. Strangely, though, it has both # 4 and # 5 scheduled for March 25, which can't be right.

What it means is that yesterday DC rescheduled Lo3W #4, moving it from Feb. 25 to Mar. 25, but that they have yet to reschedule issue #5. Don't "worry"; if #4 actually meets the new publication date, #5 will be published in April or May.

i call bull we arent going to see issue 3 till may

In fact, they might issue a recall on #2.

Heh. If they write Sodamy At out of it and have Rond Vidar escape at the last minute, they can have my copy back.

Seconded!

all i favor say aye!