Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

Timber Wolf is not missing. Karate Kid and Starman never returned (and Karate Kid died). Dreamgirl and Sensor Girl have been MIA since Lightning Saga, but Dawnstar and Wildfire were both in the Action arc. The fact that Cos couldn't get in tough with Dawnstar, Wildfire and Bloc is one of the most ominous things about the first Lo3W.

Excuse me? Do you forget that Vi tried to kill Rok during Venado Bay? Garth and Imra quit to devote their time to their family and their business, Thom devoted his time to coaching a championship Moopsball team and Tenzil became a Tri-V (or something like that) star, Dirk turned into an EarthGov propaganda mouthpiece and Nura became High Seer. Only Reep had the drive and the resources to recreate the team.

Several Legionnaires remained heroes, albeit underground, though their efforts were as individuals, as ex-Legionnaires. The Legion had been disbanded before (Universo) but they always fought through it and stayed together as the Legion. pre-5yg they (apparently) gradually drifted away and assumed relatively normal lives.

I always thought the point of 5yg was reviving the dream. We had an issue where Polar Boy describes the the gradual dissolution of the team during his term as Legion Leader.

hhmmm..so you're right, technically the events between Polar Boy's disastrous tenure as Leader and issue #1 are backstory. After all that's why it's called the Five Year Gap, that's what I meant to refer to not the actual 5yg Legion itself. I believe the 5yg Legion was the rebirth of the dream and the team. I insist though that there's an implied period of no Legion at all, the team was officially dissolved and it's heart and soul was flung far and wide across the UP. Would they even have gathered together again if not for Roxxas Dominator sponsored murders?

So to be quite specific about your question, there isn't a page in the comic book that I can point to and say "here is where they lost their way" since it happened off panel.

I think you're right, YK. The 5 Year Gap Legion lost their way, but the 5 Year Later Legion came back to it. From what I understand, you're right. There was a period, off-panel, where no Legion existed.

Although there were the SUBS, and Polar Boy never really gave up. But there was no grouping of Legionnaires, unlike during the Legion Lost/Worlds period, where Cos, Triad, Violet, Invisible Kid, Chuck, Sensor and Gear were operating in secret as a Legion.

Thanks IB and sorry for the sideways slip to the thread here but to tie it back in it appears that the gap never happened, Nura never got fat, Vi doesn't have a scar and a blue leg, there's no Tenzil for the Defense, Blok lives, there is no Kent Shakespeare (I'll miss him terribly in Lo3W), no Laurel-in-a-thong, no Squire Burroughs and Echo was never a member.
As a positive though maybe there's the Devlin O'Ryan version of Reflecto.


*sigh* I couldn't get to the CBS this week and I'm literally dying to read this. This discussion and the preview art may have saved my sanity (that's a laugh).

And yet, who are these people? Superboy was too hokey?

Compared to whom? Quislet? The Subs? The Super-Pets? Ron-Karr? Arm-Falls-Off Boy?

I don't doubt that someone, somewhere has said that Superboy was 'hokey,' but the complaint I've heard about his presence in the Legion is that he tended to dominate the scene, and the rest of the Legion got short shrift for character development or dramatic moments when he was around.

This guy isn't 'Superboy, in a bad mood.' He's a perversion of everything Superboy/man stands for, and he's really kind of a disgusting character, because he does violence to everything that makes Kal-El great.

I hear praise for how original and refreshing he is, because of that, but only from people who are too young to realize that the 'evil Superman' has been done before, many times, most prominently in the person of Bizarro.

All he offers to a fan of Superman, IMO, is nausea that this is what the writers think we want to see. A broken, pathetic, ultraviolent Super-Killer named Kal-El. No thanks. I don't particularly want to see Abraham Lincoln going on a chainsaw massacre, either. Superman, like Captain America, is supposed to stand for stuff, not just be 'some dude with superpowers.'

I'm actually very surprised that you would like a character that the writers use to outright state that Superboy, but for growing up with the Legion as role models, would turn out to be a immature, psychotic nutcase. I *like* the Legion, and I find that idea kind of noisome, that Kal-El wouldn't have been a hero, and indeed might have become an antisocial freak, without them to show him how.

Another positive thought -- no Furball or other V4 monstrosity version of Brin.

Furball was Timber Wolf's best moment ever. But don't talk about the miniseries - we better forget it.

Or Red Kryptonite... Even Smallville had Superevil Superboy on Red Kryptonite. In fact, in Silver Age, Red Kryptonite was easier to find than water...

I seem to recall Vi desperately trying to save Rokk's life at Venado Bay once she realized who he was even after he took her eye .

that s what I remember and that was how VI protested and landed herself in jail and then Vi and Ayla has been writing each other love letters.

I do understand the reality that soldiers face in the field of combat. It always seemed to me that the Venado Bay story mirrored the struggle that many have historically faced in a 'brother vs brother' scenario, the horrors of war. I'd have to dig out the comic to be certain but as I recall Vi didn't actually know it was Rokk until the last possible second. The point there is that Vi immersed herself in her role as a combatant, she was ready and willing to kill her opponent, very un-Legion like. In the real world we expect that of a soldier but in our fictional universe we expect better of a Legionnaire.

Of course I could be wrong, as far as I'm concerned these discussions are all about sharing our views. Superboy posted some insights that made SBPrime finally make a kind of sense, in IC he came across like an angry teen with the power to play billiards with planets.

Pathetically, there was an opportunity for Kal-el and Lex Luthor to become the best thing that ever happened to ANY Universe under the influence of Superman and Lois yet instead they became the WORST thing to ever happen to the 52 universes.

So, I've been mulling the issue since Wednesday.

The museum scenes struck me as a clever way to introduce things that could have been tedious. The destruction of Smallville and Takron Galtos were above the top for my tastes, but probably needed to keep up with S-Prime's reputation and heighten the stakes of the series.

As far as the Legion goes, RJ's death didn't bother me as much as other legionnaires' deaths might have. It took care of a loose string and serves as a bookend to the origin story, which I personally never want to see revisited. Plus, it was nice that S-Prime wasn't the one behind it. It reminded us that Time Trapper is the behind-the-scenes villain and kept it from becoming an overly bloody S-Prime affair. Myg’s role was unexpected, but took care of that loose string and keeps him from being too involved in legion scenes, so that’s good.

I'm a bit hesitant about the whole truth, justice, etcetera characterizations. Imra's focus on redeemability seems to take her out of the iron butt role, she should have been “Justice,” she was the one of the three who went after the Time Trapper, after all. Garth’s hotheadedness seems to take out any maturing he’s done in any continuity, plus it seems more like that is the real “American Way” lately. Rokk being a champion of diversity just seems out-of-the-blue, and, though I find his leader-ness to be sooo tiring, his ability to find the line of when to take action and what action to take could have been written up as the “Truth.” But, I’ll try not to get hung up on all that, because I still enjoy seeing these versions of the legionnaires just as they are written.

I don’t know what Sun Boy’s problem is, but will wait and see how it plays out. Brainy seems a bit more bratty, but I’m hoping that’s just one of his mood swings. Most of all, unless their absence is intended to be the lead in to the next big story, Dream Girl and Element Lad very much need to be in upcoming issues.

S-prime being the supervillains’ inspiration is a bit too pat for me, but also not something I want to get worked up about.

I liked Superman’s lack of hesitation to help out the legionnaires. And I liked the recognition that a different approach is needed to deal with S-prime. As far as bringing in the other two legions, that’s one of the premises of the series and it essentially fits the plot, so there you go.

Granted I don't know where this story is headed nor do I know what's essential to Johns story, but certain aspects of the story in #1 bugged me enough to come up with what I think would have been better...

The second Karate Kid (Myg) should never have been at the UP Council. Not only cause he didn't look anything like Karate Kid II, but because I think the young hero (Reboot/3boot age - although you couldn't have known that by the way George drew him) should have been an active Legionnaire.

I think they missed a perfect opportunity to have KK II, Comet Queen, Duo Damsel, and Bouncing Boy (and maybe even Visi-Lad) back as active Legionnaires. Val is gone...long live his successor. Along with Lydda and Rokk, having the second Subs in the Legion would have been a nice nod to this era and added the much-needed younger element to this version of the Legion before we meet up with the other teams.

Besides there are several other characters who would have played the role better...

• Animal Lad - Rejected by Vorm and current Central Director for Endangered Species, he could have been a nice nod to the past and a credible witness for the Council.
• Calamity King - a proposed 5 year gap Legionnaire who would be hard to stick in elsewhere.
• Command Kid - An actual Legionnaire of the past who was possessed by a demon...as a rep from Pretzor...he could have spoken against the Legion and their practices (also hard to squeeze in somewhere).
• Lady Memory - Never a member, but could speak out against the Legion as a rep of Talok VIII due to her connection through her husband Grev, Shadow Lass' cousin.
• Uli Algor of Skor - posed as Shadow Lass...could be a reformed leader now and have something to say about the Legion.
• Xera of Manna-5 - another non-Legionnaire, but as a former ally could have an unfavorable opinion of the Legion.

However, my top three choices are -

3. Renkil Kem - now as an Ambassador of Bismoll, he briefly stood in for his brother Tenzil (who along with Calorie Queen should have been present...an easy way to get him and fan-fav Taryn into the storyline (and Legion)...as witnesses to Brande's murder. They take a leave from politics to help out) and would have been a perfect fit to speak out against the Legionnaires with the perfect past connection.

2. Eve Aries (Saturn Queen) was never a member of the LSV initially beyond Time Travel Adult Legion stories...she could have been the Time Trapper's agent as a rep from Titan and could have mentally masterminded Brande's assassination for TT. Later she'd join up with Prime and the LSV. This could have been the untold story that brought her and the Villains together.

1. Atmos - as a rep from Xanthu who could have served briefly in Star Boy/Man's absence (also considered a 5 year gap Legionnaire)...is my first choice to publicly undercut the Legion at a UP Council. It would have been the best way to cameo a Legionnaire that few like and not waste our time with for the story over all.

Anyway, I just needed to vent, so I'll go back to hopefully enjoying the rest of the storyline.

ahh johns is defined the "american way", cleverly and maturely, I think, as "accepting and tolerant of other religions, cultures, and ethnicities". i was put off by the focus on the "American way" but i really appreciate this definition. if we consider cos as the ringleader for their adventures and the main "visionary" other than brande on the legion's goals, i cna udnersand why cos would be relegated to that position, i think other versions of cos are more characteristic of this aspect.

in querl's very first appearance, he was the sweetest boy in the world, and by action comics time he'd become the very annoyed person he tends to be in all the other versions. this along with a few other things, makes me think geoff johns is characterizing these characters with washes of the other versions, i mean, annoyed brainy always made sense to me...and is a bit more fun i think. but i think we'll see more characterizations when he's able to compare and contrast them with the other versions.

ahh i think we should wait a bit before freaking out that our favorite characters aren't included.

I am not sure if your post was directed at me, but just in case it was..


Johns has been straight forward about what he thinks of the character in recent interviews, and some of what I posted was influenced by his interviews. For instance, I definitely know he has more layers to his personality than are being shown...Johns has said that much. I wouldn't say my interpretation of the character is entirely based on what Johns has said though..but more about the way he has written the character and what I've gotten out of it.

no Thunder

Hmmm...I don't think he's merely an Evil or Bizarro Superboy.


I think he's a character that is not meant for the reality he inhabits.

Here's what I do know...he wasn't evil when he left Earth Prime...I don't think he was really evil or insane at the beginning of IC, at least no moreso than Kal-L was...I mean he was talking about remaking reality, but he'd already been a part of doing that once, a long with everyother hero in the DC Uni....and Kal-L wasn't exactly happy with that Post Crisis reality either.

No when he snapped was when he killed that first Titan accidentally....that's when what was already a pretty nightmarish reality for him, became an absolute nightmare from him...for in that instant, he, Superman, became a brutal murderer...and nothing could take that back...except making this reality go away.

Since the instant he discovered he had Superman powers and met the Pre Crisis Supes...his life has been a living hell....a nightmare from which he cannot escape, a reality in which his sense of right was wrong, his powers were wrong, he was wrong...

Since I am familiar with that reality he came from in a way, we'll just call it the Pre Crisis Reality...where good and evil were a little more black and white...it is interesting study for me.


As for the Legion...Prime, not the Time Trapper, created the multiple versions of the Legion with his reality punches......so that right there is a major Legion tie....but beyond that, he doesn't have anywhere he belongs, and it's easy to see why Superman would conclude the Legion may be his only hope...since he probably can't be killed, or contained.

As for his comparison to Superman...I'll just say he makes appreciate the current Superman more.


But I don't think he's simply an evil or even misguided character...he's just wrong for this reality, and it, and it's heroes, are every bit as much of a perversion to him as he is to them...but in terms of sanity, he actually does remember the way things were before, the black and white nature, both of the comics he read, and the Pre Crisis Universe he entered just as it was ending...it's the other heroes that don't remember it...

Yeah, I was asking you, SB. Thanks for clearing it up. I'm not as involved as I once was so there's lots of stuff I miss.

I find Johns to be a very entertaining writer even though sometimes the payoff is less thrilling than I expected, still though a good read is worth a few bucks if I get a few hours of pleasure out of the story. The Lightning Saga showed me lots of love for the Legion and I eagerly awaited each issue. Here at LW we tore into and chewed each panel for the meaty goodness in thread after thread for months and I got quite a few hours of entertainment out of it.
That's some yummy comic bookey goodness.

Yellow Kid

Don't let your decendants stay there - SBP is coming!!!!

SBPrime is such a complex character that we often forget his entire backstory. From what I recall....

He was simply Clark Kent, identical to the bumbling, geeky Clark that Supes used as a secret identity while growing up in Smallville BUT without the powers. He was constantly taunted, bullied, and made fun of by the other youths of Smallville. His only comfort came from his parents and his friendship with Lana (I don't think that was her actual name in his continuity...maybe Laura?)

Suddenly one day, he's wearing a Superboy costume (for Halloween?) and discovers that he can fly! And he's superstrong and has all of Superboy's powers from the comic books he used to read. So what does he do? As I recall he does a "fly by" and repays some of the bullies he's dealt with his entire life. Only Lana (Laura?) is able to calm him down before he does any real damage.

Sadly this is when the Crisis wave hits his world and he fails at saving Lana and his parents. His reality is destroyed in moments and he is left anchorless as he wisked away to join the other heroes in defeating the Anti-Monitor.

During Crisis he finds a replacement anchor to sanity...Kal-L and Lois and in the end he does one truly heroic thing. He sacrifices his life and happiness along with them so that New Earth can be born.

Remember, he did not ever have a chance to grow into the role of a hero. He was just a frightened teenager who had been bullied and abused his entire life, suddenly given enormous powers and having his world and loved ones destroyed before his very eyes.

Rather than dying however, he is trapped along with Kal-L, Lois and Alex Luthor in a pocket reality from which they can watch all the others leading their normal lives. He's okay with it at first until Lois falls ill and begins to die. Lois, who had become his surrogate Mom is dying and he can do nothing to save her. He does everything he can to save her while Kal just sits by her side and mourns her. Once again, his enormous powers aren't enough to save the life of his main anchor to reason and sanity.

On top of all that mental anguish, Alex Luthor had been manipulating him...brainwashing him in essence, forcing him to relive his failures on his own Earth...failing to save Lana...and failing to save his parents. Alex promises him that he has found a way to bring back their worlds while at the same time reminding him of everything Clark has sacrificed while the others have been allowed to live their merry lives again.

Finally he snaps.

While some sacrificed their lives, he ends up sacrificing his sanity. Why shouldn't he have a chance at happiness? What good did it do him to play the hero and sacrifice himself so that "flawed" heroes such as Conner and all the others on New Earth get a chance to continue living?

When Lois finally dies...his last anchor...he goes insane. He becomes a spiteful, petulant child...angry at the world and everyone in it. He wants his chance to be happy. He wants what he has been promised for so long (by a manipulative Alex Luthor)...his world back...his parents back...his Lana back. And it no longer matters what he he has to do in order to achieve it. And he's super powered!

Don't forget that Kal-L also fell sway to Luthor's promises. Kal-L! The original Superman! If he could fall under Luthor's spell what chance did SBPrime have? But Kal had years of living a heroic life which served as an anchor to reality for him and he was soon brought back to his senses. Clark never had that benefit and so there was no hope for his redemption.

Until now .... maybe. If the Legion truly serves as the fulcrum that molded Superman into the hero he became, maybe it can undo the damage done to SBPrime.

It's a brilliant idea if Johns can pull it off. Not sure if it will work but I'm looking forward to seeing it play out.

On the looks of it, the Legion's not going to get a reboot after all... but I see someone with a big S that's going to, with all the retconned being canon again (including 1000 Olsens & the Super-Pets), have yet another origin reboot. Superman: Rebirth?

Now awaiting a sleek and streamlined explanation of Pre-Crisis Kara which that guy always pull off the best. Is there no one better to handle with continuity than Mr. Johns? Ahem...

And how do you redeem a guy who still think he's trapped in his little playworld, and everybody are really little squishy insects? You squish'em, right? SBP's mentality is one of those things that doesn't fit in a nutshell...

Leaving all the continuty gaffs aside, I say Geoff's got plenty of fuel left in the think-tank. Redemption may not be the best method out there, but I certainly didn't see that coming. At all.

Perez really did live up to his promise in his own way (if it IS "every Legionnaire ever", then I'm still waiting for 5YL, Adult, and the cartoon), setting a fair middle point between the two or three artistic styles of both reboots. High points on XS & Threeboot Imra, not so hot on Ferro though, whose supposed to be a bit less buffer and completely iron-skinned. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ferro_%28comics%29.png) May just be a technical gaff for the latter, like how Reboot SG's nose is deflated to the point that the nostrils are the only thing visible.

Oh, and where's Kon-El? Even the dead Rebooters are up there. And it suprises me that SBP never heard of the L.O.S.V., if he read the comics in Earth-Prime.

I await for the inter-Legion interaction. Wonder how age difference would factor in.

Hmm. I was thrown by the whole "redeem" thing. I wonder if the 21c Titans-- or even a Supes-less LSH-- would agree to that?

But.... I have to admit the redeeming thing is very Superman.

It will be interesting to see if Geoff can pull it off before Super-Prime beheads too many of our favorite Legionnaires.

Here's hoping RJ's death is a red herring of some sort.

I enjoyed # 1 and think this is going to be a great ride overall, if it doesn't turn into a Legion of Super-slaughterfest.

What Dan Didio said this weekend at the Toronto Fan Expo about Lo3W

“When I first started at DC, one of the franchises I really wanted to invigorate was ‘Teen Titans’…as the legend goes, Paul Levitz, my boss, didn’t believe ‘Teen Titans’ were going to work that well because we had done so many reboots before that, and they all seemed to trip over it,” Didio explained. “When ‘Titans’ came out [by Geoff Johns and Mike McKone] and was a big hit, Paul came into my office, threw a copy of ‘Teen Titans’ onto my desk and goes, ‘Too bad we can’t do the same thing with Legion.’

“We know there’s an audience out there, and we keep on trying to get it right,” he added, saying that the current “Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds” would be used as a barometer to figure out which interpretation fans liked the best and then move forward with “one, clear interpretation of the Legion by the time we’re through.”

When asked whether or not the room enjoyed a Legion with Superman/boy or as its own team, the crowd voted by a strong majority just for the Legion without including a “Super” lead.

I get that SUperman wants to redeem Prime, I do. But he has killed, without warning and without hesitation.

Personally, I would like to see him stick around in the future as a thorn in the Legion's side. Here he is, making a mockery of the man they call a legend. A man whose values they helped form.

I dont want to see him redeemed, I want to see him become their new. And I don't mean every single issue either, I have no desire to see "Prime forms and new fatal Five" and then next month "Prime and Mordru concoct a secret plan". He should be used sparingly, one of those "Oh #*#*#!" cliffhangers that tells us the legion is in trouble this time. To use him every month would dilute him I think.

if i shake my magic dream-girl ball i read... "superboy prime realizing his mistake at the last moment and sacrificing his life to destroy the time trapper"

cliche but i have the feeling that johns will have me bawling by the end of this.