Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Official LSH 3 Worlds Thread #5 out (FINALLY!! - spoilers)

The Threeboot Legion, as well as that '90s one, will actually be featured by October... Apparently, we still need to have Geoff's revivals, front and center first. And I won't expect Cos to be back by then anyway. But if KK, Lu, and Dirk (sans the Lady Quark catsuit) were featured on cover #1, then expect'em to be back.

Well, Superman's stories managed to be in one continuous array of stories... not. Retcons, reimaginings, company crossovers, merger of parallel worlds, and a one-time restart of the Big Bang... stitched'em up.

Being in the future, the Legion doesn't have any of those privileges. But a 'Reboot'. Even if you have Johns and Perez/Frank do the revival Legion for years without time progression, like a comic strip or the Simpsons, there's always something called 'sales'. Unless DC names it an All-Star. Oh, and everyone thought IdC writer Brad Meltzer doing JLA would be a breakthrough.

Maybe what PenaltyKillah meant (I'm hoping; it's what I mean, anyway) is that the Legion needs to have a good version that doesn't rely on star power. Any creative team will leave. I want a version of the Legion that can survive that. A version with potential that any new writer can turn into interesting stories.

In my opinion, Trips, the Legion in ALL of its incarnations has had that potential in spades and in many instances HAS realized it. There have been quality runs in every era by differnt creative teams. And the concept's potential is a lot more than almost any standard superhero fare.

The problem is twofold: 1) To fandom in general, the Legion has become such a mess through reboots and such that they won't touch it, and 2) Almost nothing other than the big icons in comics have been selling since comics pretty much imploded in the '90s.

Now, relinking to Superman and cleaning up the continuity, both of which appear to be in the works, MAY be the solution. But in the process a lot of existing fans who've weathered all the changes or even come aboard more recently could be alienated--or it could just be too little, too late.

We'll see, I guess. But each version has not been without at least the potential for sustaining itself longterm.

As Waid has now ruined Legion twice, I wouldn't pay attention to what he says about it

According to LITG this week, Shooter's back on the book:

LEGION OF WRITERS
It’s handy that Jim Shooter worked so far ahead on "Legion," Because, even though he stormed off the book around March (hence his no show with DC at the Bristol convention), things were patched up nicely and he’s back on the book. Without missing a single issue.

Of course, when he does decide to gracefully step down, expect Geoff Johns to jump on that book like a… well, a rude word.

Rich gives this story a yellow light (caution), so I guess time will tell. He goes on to say that Marvel's looking to steal Geoff away when his exclusive DC contract is up in about a year or so. DC better hand over the keys to the building to him to prevent that debacle!

Geoff today is the only real constant seller for DC. They would be stupid to let him go right now.
And, yeah!!! Shooter's still on the book REALLY makes my day! Better than that just a TMK book back in press!

Yeah!

Man I wish I were going to San Diego.

I hope not.

Since there were pages and pages of posts in response to the rumor he quit, I think it only right to bump this so it's not missed.

I greatly look forward to the Brainy/Dream Girl wedding issue.

As someone probably mentioned on the subject before, the whole Shooter off/Shooter on thing smacks of an anti-Shooter person feeding stuff to LITG. Given Shooter's rep, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the day-to-day relationship with him were a bit tempestuous. Threats to leave/going on strike whatever.

As for Johns, most of the time I love his work. It was his JSA, as much or more of the Legion, that got me to read comics again. He brings authentic emotion to his characters and his knack for untying the gordian knots of DC "continuity" would make him worth his weight in gold, easily. Unlike many of the people on this board, I am thoroughly enjoying his GL "Secret Origin." His current Justice Society, on the other hand, is the slowest thing since molasses in February (in the northern hemisphere). I really enjoyed the "reunion" feel of the Action Superman/Legion story. But I don't want a full-time ongoing Legion about grown-up Legionnaires prancing around in ridiculous 80s nostalgia outfits.

Amen.

I see what you're saying here, but I am really enjoying it. I think what Johns has is the knack of the, well, if not the cliffhanger, the knack of the carrot - leading the reader to want to know what happens next.

It really does help, reusing Elseworld concepts as plot devices. At least Geoff pulled it off, instead of his 52 script-mate a decade ago...

On the Lo3W part...
I don't see how that miniseries would end without a continuity cataclysm. Especially with Darkseid's takeover and Libra's actions, the future could be getting all the merrier, I mean, murkier.

To be frank, I think Final Crisis will set up how DC look-and-feel will be from now on, while L3W seems to be aimed at setting up how DC continuity will be from now on. At least, this is what I expect it to be.
And re-reading some interviews with Geoff, he says, at Newsarama, that Action Legion is indeed the Legion as of a bit before Crisis On Infinite Earths. One more reason to think L3W is bigger than the Legion for DC continuity at this point.

I've been pointing this out for months now...and it's easy to see why he picked that spot, because that's when the original Legion ended, with the Superman revamp and the launch of the Post Crisis DC Universe. To me it was obvious...to me that is when the origianl Legion ended and that's also when the book stopped being an elite seller.

Geoff Johns instantly gets stuff like that, which IMO is why Geoff Johns is one of the most successful writers to come down the pike in a while.

I don't care what they add to the Action Legion, as long as it's the Action Legion that's being added too.


To me there are only a handful of characters you would bring in from the other Legions(like most of the original characters from the ZH Legion)...Laurel Gand, Gates...characters like that, and from the W&K, Karate Kid, Triplicate Girl(the W&K Trips is the only version with the power level to really belong in the Legion)...

Conceptually, I think the main reason he picked up before Crisis was Crisis itself, and not because it stopped being the Legion (it hasn't). It is obvious that Geoff is playing with the idea of undoing Crisis for quite some time (JSA Earth-2, 52 and Booster Gold are clear examples - and they do not involve Superman at all). It is also a fact he is trying to "restore" Superman as Superman used to be before Byrne (actually, sometimes to the point of making it a mess (I have no idea what or who Superman is these days - even Krypto is back).
So, it's not a matter of getting the original Legion back (the original died in Adventure Comics, when their Adult counterparts simply didn't exist - or lived up to End of An Era, your pick). Rather, it is a matter of undoing Crisis.

Basically I think there are 3 types of Legion Fan:

1. The ones that don't like Superman and don't get his importance to the book.

2. The ones that don't like Superman and do get his importance to the book.

3. The ones that do like Superman and do get his importance to the book.

The way I look at it...the #1 type fans have had their Legion for 20 years now and the end result is that the book is on the edge of publishing oblivion and has been regelated to obscure fringe status.


The comic industry now is survival of the fittest, you need well known characters, you need to be unique...and I know die hard Legion faitful are never going to agree with me on this, but there is nothing particularly unique about the Legion without Superman in it. The characters aren't well known, they don't occupy a familiar universe, and there is nothing that makes the book stand out on the shelves. Even the villains aren't unique anymore, because they've been retconned into the Reg DC Uni. It doesn't matter how good the writing is...those are too many negatives counting against it in the modern audience....and any and all evidence points to this being true, no matter what stories in the past 20 years you may have personally enjoyed.


The people reading the book aren't the problem, it's the ones not reading it that are...and the fact that the stand alone title will get huge surges on relaunches, or hints of returning to past glory, and just as quickly loses those readers when the promise isn't kept, proves that the concept needs help to survive in the modern audience.

I don't care how many versions of the Legion they publish...I want the one with Superman back in existence, and I'd like to read those sorts of stories again. They can make them stories of the past or classified type format...but that's what the book needs to survive, and without a doubt it will outsell all other versions published since the COIE. It'll have Legion Fans and Superman fans reading it, so how could it not. Plus it will instantly be more inviting and familiar to new readers(not to mention old ones)...


You have to separate yourself from your Legion fandom to truly understand what it will take to get the book out of the red IMO.....obviously if the things that bothered potential new fans bothered the diehard Legion Fans..the diehard Legion fans wouldn't be diehard Legion Fans in the first place.

I don't really think so...I think if that were the case Johns wouldn't be saying the only version of the Legion he really wants to write is Superman and the Legion...and he's said that on several occassions.


Keep in mind...when Johns was reading the Legion before breaking into the business, the first versions of the Legion he read were the 5YG and ZH Legions...he didn't read the original Legion when it was published...IIRC though, he has since said that after reading back stories that he likes the Bates/Cockrum/Shooter/Grell Legion the best(otherwise known as the Disco)...add to that the fact that Johns is the current Superman writer and brougth another version of Superman into the JSA and I think Johns simplly likes Superman and feels he'll have a better chance at being successful with him.

You know...Booster Gold is awesome work by Johns, everything about that book is fun and awesome, yet even Johns can't sell that book on his name alone. He's got a sense for distilling the essential elements of characters and teams...even when he wasn't around in their heyday. That's what makes him a great writer. He knows what it takes to be successful, and there is everything to indicate that Superman and the Legion can be successful, and nothing to indicate it can't...and there is nothing to indicate the Legion without Superman will be successful...no matter how good the writing and art are.

I don't think even that opinion is particularly unique though...

IF you read Shooter's comments from back in 76, he cites Superboy as the most important Legionaire, Giffen and the Bierbaum's wanted to write him...Waid hated the retcon. There are very few writers that want or feel the Legion is better off without Superman...and I am sure all the ones that have attempted to do the Legion without him and had their work reveiled by segements of fandom(which is every writer that has attempted it), agrees, after the fact at the very least, if not before it.

Even TMK...

BTW, I do think Johns is a little off though...as adult Superman and the Legion have never had the magic of Superboy and the Legion.

So if Johns does do a title...I hope it's one chronicling the past adventures of Superboy and the Legion....it can be a compantion title to a self contained Legion...all fans are happy that way.


Let Shooter, the master self contained Legion writer/Universe builder/character creator write the regular title.

I have no doubt that Waid is one of the greatest and truest Legion Fans ever..but he has shown repeatedly that he really doesn't know how to get the book successful...you look at the low points of his career, and they are his turns as Legion writer.


And I'll tell you why...

Waid looks at the retcons of the original Legion, the cool fun retcon eras...that work great as retcons, but were never actual published eras, and he tries to write those eras...and it's just not the same.


The ZH Legion? You could say it was an all new Legion...but you could also say it was an attempt to chronicle a Pre-Superboy era of the original Legion(with just enough twists thrown into to call it all new)...which existed as a retcon in the original continuity, but never an actual published era.

The Threeboot? Same thing, only intead of starting from scratch, he tried to start it as the original Legion was started, with an unchronicled early era, in progress...but still, the Pre-Superboy era.

Supergirl? He was trying to chronicle the retcon era of the original Legon when Supergirl was a member before Superboy.

Yeah he's tweaked a few things...but basically what he's done...is attempted to write all these Superboyless eras that were retconned into the origional Legion.

These things worked great as retcons, they are wonderfully inventive, and added so much mystique to the original...but they were never published eras originally...and there was a reason for that...becuase Mort Weisenger didn't think it would sell...and Waid has pretty much proven Mort was right. Trancending eras and audiences in the process.


Sometimes...it's best to remain a fan. I think the only thing Waid has proven is that he doesn't know how to write a Legion remotely close to being as memorable or as popular as the original...and he's had more than his fair share of tries to do it.


He wants this pure idealized version that never actually was...he wants a Legion, that only a diehard Legion fan will love...he writes a Legion for purists...and those are the only ones that buy it. Time and time and time again.

The Legion itself has no universal appeal...it just doesn't, it's Superboy and the Legion that had the Universal appeal.


The original Superboy and the Legion was a DC institution, like Superman and Batman, like the X-Men, like Spiderman, that had a popularity that trancended eras and creative teams...and it never became unpopular or overstayed it's welcome as all over versions have.


About the only flaw in the original Legion was that it was unlucky and frequently the victim of completely stupid editorial decisions...

Like Mort's decision to pull it out of Adventure and make it the backup in Action...and of course, the Byrne retcon. Fixing what wasn't broken...fixing the only thing in the DC Uni that wasn't broken.

The original concept showed instituional appeal and was a cornerstone of the DC Uni...in fact there is substantial evidence that it was never anything less than DC's best selling team book...it might have even been comics best selling team book, for the entireity of it's publication as a lead feature. In 20 years, Waid hasn't even gotten close to the target...much less the bullseye.

Hey, I was missing you here at this talk... I was going to ask you to prove Johns was thinking more about the Legion than to Crisis and... well, you just proved my point by this answer above.

Of course Geoff wants to write a LSH book. Hell, I would, probably asking some crazy dude to recap all name etc., but Geoff is definitely primarily rearranging DCU chronology, first and foremost. That's his job at the moment. And that's why he is talking about SuperMAN and LSH. Because he wants to strengthen Superman books and Superman Universe (especially now that Busiek is out) and he is the main architect of 52 (more so than Grant Morrison).

Oh, there is a 4th type of fan: The one who likes the Legion and doesn't care about SuperMAN/BOY/NANNY as a primary character in the book. I think he is an inspiration and all, but not as THE main ingredient, you know? That's just that, it is not that I don't like him, as you implied.

And if LSH is an old concept without hooks, a Superman & LSH is just as old: in fact, look at Batman & The Outsiders for a glimpse of that. Booster Gold is actually selling pretty well for a C-list book. So, again, it rests today more on the laurels of a writer/artist team.

RE: Rich Johnson


I was saying this guys rumors didn't add up from day 1.

Nowhere in Shooter's history do I see him getting in a huff over creative differences...it's always been corporate, not creative struggles that were his undoing. He's a company man all the way as a writer....actually, he's pretty much a company man period. Ironic because he is truly gifted as a writer...he writes memorable scenes and moments like few writers in history.

But I digress, anyway, as former EIC, Publisher, he's not going to PO'ed at DC axing a version that doesn't sell...he's been in that chair before.


Johnston's rumors never made any sense(or shouldn't have) to those aware of the reasons behind Shooter's pariah status in the industry...and it has nothing to do with being an oversensitive and tortured creator. Only someone with a superficial knowledge of Shooter's rep would make the claims Johnston made...or someone deliberately sensationalizing Shooter's rep to make themselves an online power player.


To me it reads like Johnston was on a power trip...seeing if he could get the EIC of DC, fan fav Geoff Johns and the Legendary Jim Shooter to jump through his hoops...and he got owned.


This isn't hindsight either...I made the same points about the holes in logic to Johnson at Newsarama when he first broke the rumors. I also pointed out to him that the LS Legion was published and the Action Legion was announced...before Shooter was even back in comics.


...and he never responded to those challenges to his rumors. I guess he doesn't like jumping through hoops anymore than Didio, Johns and Shooter do. He's covering his butt...but his rumors never made any sense, and still don't.

Shooter's into corporate struggles, not creative ones. He's a company man that has a history of putting sales over creativity, and he has worked under some of the most constrolling and insufferable editors in history, and earned their respect due to his corporate mindset. If anything he probably feels being associated with Johns would give his return a boost...because that's the way an EIC would think IMO.

Oh and there's one other thing about the rumors I questioned but was saving it for an argument...

Dan Didio is a big fan of Valiant Comics and Shooter. I don't see him dissing one of his personal favorites...I think he'd do it to someone he wasn't fond of, but not the guy that published The Second Life of Dr. Mirage(one of Didio's favorite 90's comics). If anything Didio is the spiritual successor to Shooter...they probably get along due to similar company first/bottom line mindsets. And I have a feeling that Didio would listen to Shooter's insight rather than just dismissing it as he would a typical writer with no EIC experience.


Not hard to see why...
No one thinks Shooter is an idiot that doesn't know what he's talking about...not even the guys that hate him. Even those guys admit to putting out some of their best work under Shooter.

Thanks Ricardo...it's good to be back. I've been lurking...just reading for a while.

I think Johns likes the Legion but I don't think he's a fan on the order of Levitz or Waid...or even Giffen.

And I actually think that's good news...I pretty much cringe any time I hear a Legion creator saying the book is their all time favorite title...that's been a bad omen more often than not.


I also think that generally, the more of a Legion fan a creator is, the more they tend to write for Legion Fans instead of comics fans....too close to the flame IMO.

Fair enough...I'll accept that fourth archetype, those that like Superman that don't get his importance to the title

No it's really not...it's been absent for so long that it would in fact be new. It's the Legion without that it is old....it's been published for 20 years now.


More...it's also more unique. Plenty of teams in the future without ties to the most Legenday hero ever...there was only one with. Still unique.....

I think their intent was that it would be more than a C-list book...


And I don't think DC considers 30k per month as successful...more like right above cancellation level.

I don't think DC's considers the Legions sales rank over the past 20 years as truly successful, just acceptable...that's why they keep trying to fix it. And will continue to do so.

Takes more than just a great creative team to be successful..even Alan Moore's name isn't enough to sell just anything.

Except Shooter had all the leasure of contacting RJ to tell him the rumour was untrue. Lots of writers and artists do that all the time and Johnston is always happy to retract his rumour if that's the case.