Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Supergirl and the Legion #30- Spoilers!

Thanks Tamper lad - I've missed drawing them these past couple of months!

A BIG improvement over the last issue. So much happens...with some great twists. I'm going to miss seeing Barry's art on this title SO much. I would like to miss whoever keeps painting Tinya orange. Also, in her scene with Violet...Tasmia is flesh coloured.

I enjoyed this wrap-up issue (or maybe I'm still on a high from last night's Lost finale).

Fun fact: looks like Lu and Jan are still hot and heavy

For all the build up for this mosterously drug out storyline this is what we get for the finale? I was not expecting alot from Waids last issue, but this was even weaker than I though it would be. I know I sound harsh but this issue was just the capper to a truly aweful run for me. I really didn't like the end of the war or what happened to Mon-El, but the Cosmic Boy twist was just beyond lame to me.
I am just glad that its over and someone else can come in and try to make something good out of Waids mess.

OK, I admit it, they got me.

I was ready to hurl the book across the room in disgust until the twist was revealed. Well Done.


HOWEVER - I still don't think Supergirl and the others would have gone along knowing what they did. It was just too evil to trust even Cos on.

I have to admit I'm not quite that wowed, either. (Here be spoilers, so maybe just skip this if you haven't read the issue already, please? I don't wanna annoy anybody.)

While I really enjoyed the twist at the end (even if the word 'hero' seems to have undergone certain linguistic changes in the 41st century, obviously having taken on the connotation of 'schemer' ), most of the issue once again had absolutely no emotional resonance for me.

Apart from the ickyness of the Dominator genocide and the sanitised skirting around it by just showing the planet explode, there was once again absolutely no sign that something important had happened. Sure, if you have written your protagonists into such a dire situation as the Dominator invasion, only drastic measures are going to get them out again. What bugs me, though, is that immediately after, everybody's going on in their merry way. None of those who are still convinced that they bombed the Dominators to Kingdom Come are showing second thoughts, having remorse, or emphasise that this solution was the only viable one. There simply isn't any reaction to what they've done at all. And then: does one's leader ordering genocide and hand-picking someone for a suicide mission merit not more than the sentiment of “wouldn't vote for him again”?

Should a Legion leader have the authority to order someone to go to their deaths, anyway? (Precedents? I'm really not terribly versed in Legion continuity.)

What made that scene with Cos selecting Mon-El so unpalatable was that it really looked as if he decided on grounds of “eh, that one's gonna die anyway, so let's elect him for the 'honours'”. I'm not complaining about Cos' actions in light of how his plan turned out, but I'm annoyed at all the Legionnaires who didn't know about the plan just feebly protesting for a bit but then ultimately accepting Cos' orders and Mon volunteering. It feels so calculating and horribly unheroic to me, even in light of Mon probably being 100% done for anyway and this being the only viable, “smart” solution. Still, everybody looked horribly bad here, which could have been avoided by not writing them into such a dead-lock of a situation in the first place. Have someone grab the bomb and fly merrily off to their doom before they can be stopped or whatever.

I didn't care much for Mon's noble sacrifice, either. When he gave that rousing speech about having found companionship and being a part of something again, I was just trying to remember whether he had any meaningful contact to anyone on the two teams. I'm coming up with a total blank. Bye for now, Mon, I really didn't know you at all.

What was the whole thing with Mekt? I'm the first to admit that I have horrible memory as well as sub-par reading comprehension, so can anyone please tell me how they at first interpreted Mekt's intention in lording it out over Mon-El with Cos? Cos seems to interpret it as Mekt probably either wanting to go himself and being sure of returning, or sending someone other than Mon, both with the end result of Mekt later “owning” Mon again. I at first interpreted what Mekt was saying as him volunteering as well as wanting to spare Mon, regardless of his “ownership” remarks – and then, what good would Mon have been to a dead Mekt? Maybe I'm just not as good a schemer as Cos, or don't really know Mekt's true nature, or maybe this was written in a misleading way? Or maybe I just can't read.

And then, just as an example, the big Ranzz Reunion: I would have really liked to read how they all came to terms with each other again. Guess that would have probably bored the pants off of a lot of you guys , but my problem with the book has always been that, to me, people randomly like, love or dislike each other, and then keep changing their opinion, and I have no clue as to why, since they do not actually interact in a meaningful way.

I have to say that I'm looking forward to Mr. Bedard's run, something about Mr. Waid's characterisation unfortunately doesn't click with me at all, and this issue was no exception.

Well, I guess Mon must have been in on the plan from the beginning.

But I agree, the rest of the Legion (the ones not involved in the plan) essentially accepted genocide because that's what their leader ordered. That is not good. I used to live in Germany, and this reminds me of discussions on Nazism and what the reaction of ordinary Germans should have been to it. The little misgivings expressed by some of the Legionnaires simply aren't enough. I keep thinking of what the reaction of Levitz's White Witch would have been to this, and that to me underlines the difference...

So.... Dream Girl's moved on to a "higher plane of existance" hey? Gimme a break...........

To be fair, Lightning Lad did vociferously oppose the plan but under the circumstances, I'd probably have voted to drop the bomb myself.

Now that there's more than one Legion in existence, I don't see any reason why they must both have the same standard high-and-mighty code of morality. The 3boots don't have a Constitution that commands "Thou shalt not kill" -- they're young soldiers flying by the seats of their pants. The fact they're potentially dangerous and sometimes morally ambiguous makes them all the more intriguing, imo.

I was thinking about this aspect of things myself, and another aspect of it is this: the Legionnaires are freaked out by the events of the past week or so, and they're tired, and they don't have any better ideas. They're scared of the Dominators rising back up and killing everyone. I don't think they're just blindly following orders; it's more that they really don't know what else they can do. And since, as it turned out, the Legion didn't kill billions of aliens, I'm not going to make a big thing about it.

but the point being Brainy, Dreamboy, Phantom Girl, Cos and Dream Girl seem to be the only 4 who knew the plan. Did Mon El figure it out? The Kryptonite might have prevented Supergirl interfering if you stretch it. You cold argue that people close to Brainy and Cos may have figured out it was a trick or that Dream girl may turn out to have warned everyone. But without that it looks like everyone else thought they were murdering billions and didn't even try to stand in Mon El's way...

Oh, I think Mon-El was in on it.

Yeah, I think you guys are right. There should've been a lot more resistance to Cos's decision. Does this team *not* have a "no kill" policy, like previous versions?

But... I kind suspect we'll see more reactions to Cos's actions next issue, which is supposed to deal with aftermath.

If the UP accuses Cos of genocidal war crimes, who else would appear to be guilty?

Obviously Brainy because he built the weapon. I think Tinya would be accused of knowingly recovering the parts for the weapon. Of course Brainy and Cos could protect her by saying she was didn't know what she was ordered to do. This defense probably wouldn't fly because she obviously spent hours sifting through a pile of rubble for something very specific.

The other members could be accused of complicity knowing the plan at the end and not doing anything to stop it. But they had been fighting for days non-stop with no rest. They had just been told rightly or wrongly that the dominators had planted DNA sleeper seeds ready to terrorize their home again and been given the option of pre-emption.

Public opinion on Cos' guilt would be divided i think. Earth probably considers him a hero, the rest of the UP who were not terrorized so much in the Dominion War probably thinks of him as a war criminal.

No, no; Tinya has to be kept out of it, because she knows what she was going after, but that has to stay a secret. Brainy's the only one around to carry the can for this conspiracy (because Mon-El and Cos aren't there), and he's going to have to claim to have built the thing out of whatever the Dominion had lying around, or something, and if anyone brings up Tinya searching for something under Legion HQ, they'll have to come up with another explanation for it.

I was upset about blowing up the planet until the twist. however, it leads to a deeper problem I have with the scifi convention of an all evil planet Dominators,Khunds, Romulans, etc, etc

where's the opposition party? I find it hard to believe that an entire planet is evil. the Legion is made up of people rebelling against the UP stagnation. the Dominators don't have that? I no, I don't count the I will trick them into a war to make us better guy.

as far as the war crimes go, since the LSH is an official branch of UP I suppose they have some basis for charging them. however, since the Dominator's(the whole planet it seems) is deemed evil and dangerous, why bother charge him?

anyway, it could make for an interesting read when it comes up.

Well it was a good issue. Read it last night though it was after two events and many drinks and I was exhausted so I can't think of specifics right now.

Still the art as usual was awesome. I will miss it. (didn't care for the cover though)

The pages with the mysterious characters was the highlight for me.

Personally was a bit shocked about Cos' plan. First I was impressed Cos grew a backbone. In the heat of battle in that situation facing the reality of millions of genetic super Dominators I can understand the decision.

But even if Cos grew a backbone I thought it was not very Legion-like. Vril Dox sure...but Cos? Brainy? So I was impressed when it was revealed it wasn't really a bomb. The heroic "there is always another way" even I fell for it and yelled hoorah! (not outloud)

What bothers me is no other hero said anything about this plan? As Doctor One said I can't believe the White Witch wouldn't have a problem with this. Element Lad?

Pretty good issue. Nice wrap up. Hopefully, the next arc won't be some universe threatening menace.

I didn't even consider that Mon could be in on the whole thing. (There was something about an earlier version of him stuck in my head who rather wanted to die than return to the Phantom Zone. I still seem to throw everything I've ever read together.) I'm still not convinced that he knew what would happen to him, though. Don't know if that would make Cos' plan better or meaner when it comes to Mon-El.

Which sounds plausible and which I'm totally fine with, I'm just not all that happy about the "out of sight, out of mind" attitude they display afterwards.

But I'm gonna. For me, wanting and/or allowing to kill but in the end not managing to do so for whatever reason is not morally superior to succeeding - the original intent stays the same. That the Legionnaires didn't actually wipe out the dominators does not at all mitigate the fact that they were willing to stand aside and allow the "Cos has a plan fraction" to proceed. Bad Legionnaires, bad.

Good point. Somehow, though, this fails to intrigue me and rather puts me off. I'd prefer my goofily-powered space-teens and twens more heroic, please, otherwise they feel really un-legion-y to me. Guess I've found one of my personal points of what constitutes the Legion for me, here.

Why else would a politician bring up a soldier they sent to enforce a policy to face charges for war crimes? The polls are reflecting badly on the outcome and they need to cover their own rear end.

So after they send 22 year old kids into a situation that's hopeless, they blame them regardless of the outcome. Maybe a bit too much like real life but its sort of the way its always been.

Cos sending Mon back to the zone may reflect badly on him. The only thing is if he had such supreme confidence in Brainy's ability to find the permanant cure that he thought it would be a matter of days and not years.


There's no way Brainy wouldn't finger Cos (disappeared or not) if he were on trial himself. Can't imagine him not implicating Tinya either if push came to shove. But he'd be smart enough to move the trial to Earth where the jury would be more sympathetic.

Legionnaires killing to stop cosmic-scale genocidal threats is an integral part the Legion's heroic past and has been since 1962. The first, but certainly not the last example, is currently being cited in the JSA #6 preview. Lightning Lad showed no hesitation killing Zaryan 45 years ago -- he must have known death was the likely result of splitting the warship in two -- and the same character (as Live Wire) killed again in Legion Lost to prevent the annihilation of two galaxies. The question of moral choice is more severe in the case of the secret conspiracy of Saturn Girl, Mon-El, Brainy and Duo Damsel to end the Time Trapper's reign of madness. Projectra unilaterally claimed the right to execute Nemesis Kid with her own two hands, and did so without mercy. These actions were brutal but they weren't unheroic. For many people they are points of history that define the Legion.

If called upon to do the unthinkable, I believe the AniLegion (after much more soul-searching, of course) would also stand willing and able to kill for the greater good -- some of 'em, at least -- but it would probably never get that far.

I have no doubt that Brainy would implicate Cos. But if Cosmic Boy wasn't around, it wouldn't do him any good.

The point about keeping Tinya out of it is not because Brainy is such a nice guy. It's to make sure that nobody figures out the Phantom Zone projector aspect of things. Because if that comes out at the trial, there's the danger that someone finds a way to let the Dominion out, and that is, shall we say, a suboptimal outcome. To keep the Dominion in the Phantom Zone, I'm sure that Brainy would lie truth out of the United Planets if it came to that.

As for Mon-El, I don't think it reflects badly on Cosmic Boy to send him to the Phantom Zone. I think it makes a lot of sense. They're trying to save the guy's life, after all. I don't even see how it's an issue. "Mon, we have a plan to get rid of the entire Dominion humanely. To get things to work out right we're going to have to put one over on the Wanderers, and - here's the bad news - we're also going to have to save your life. Can you accept that?"

Oh, I'm not opposed to killing in the course of a story at all, and I wouldn't automatically judge any Legionnaire who had done so as unheroic, or every situation resulting in killing as morally reprehensible. I just don't like this issue, where those not in the know about Cos' plan show not much agency concerning the Mon-El "selection process". Nor are they showing any second thoughts concerning the Dominator issue, and everybody immediately afterwards behaves as if there is nothing to ponder about anymore, as long as it doesn't concern rebuilding the headquarters, electing a leader, or other oh so pressing "ethical issues". That's what makes me think them shallow and unheroic in this specific "killing" scenario. I don't know how I'd assess all the other instances you've listed, because boy, do I ever not know much about the pre-ZH Legion, but that was an interesting list.

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If called upon to do the unthinkable, I believe the AniLegion (after much more soul-searching, of course) would also stand willing and able to kill for the greater good -- some of 'em, at least -- but it would probably never get that far.

I hope it won't. After all, who is still gonna want to buy McDonalds Happy Meals for their kids when they include toys of Supermanboy, executioner of the abominable mass-murdering Rippozore of Maimalon Nine?

I agree that there was the lack of debate and concern in the aftermath of Cos' plan but look it had only been a week.

To use a couple of real world examples. I doubt bombed out Londoners debated the morality of firebombing Dresden during the Second World War. They may have after the war but could one look someone who'd been bombed out of their home in the eye while fighting was still going and said that you opposed the bombing? I'm also sure that in summer 1945 Londoners were too busy rebuilding and worrying about ration cards to worry about the ethics of bombing Dresden.

Likewise in the decision to use the atomic bomb it was not until years later that even what we'd consider to be the American intelligensia had an open dialog about the morality of that decision.
I'd argue that even today there hasn't been a full dialog in the portion of the population that we consider outside the intelligensia.

The question then is should we hold our newsprint heroes to a higher standard? To some degree I think we should but that does limit plotlines somewhat.

This was a brilliant send-off. I'm really going to miss this series.

Barry, if you're reading this, I want to thank you personally. Mark's and your work on the Legion helped get me through a very difficult period of my life. Last year, when my graduate school work and my own neuroses were driving me crazy, I had the consolation that every month there would be a new issue of the Legion waiting for me. For twenty or thirty minutes out of each month, I could be perfectly happy.

I'm at a better place in my life now, but I'm grateful to you nonetheless. I wish you all the best and I look forward to your future work.

I also want to thank Barry for his excellent work. The Legion seldom looked better. You are up there with my favorite Legion artists. Thank you.

Hi Sir Tim and Doctor One -
Thank you both so much! It really has been an absolute pleasure and honour being the Legion artist - I hope I get a chance to revisit them again someday! I can't even really begin to explain how it feels to be referred to as being part of LSH history - it's the kind of thing I dreamed of as a kid when I started trying to draw super-heroes,daydreaming about how one day I might actually get to be a professional artist. Just getting to work on a book like LSH is a fantastic privelige, but to receive such praise and kind words for the work I've done really does make it even more special.

Hope you'll give my Marvel adventures a try - it'd be great to keep in touch!