Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Supergirl and the Legion #30- Spoilers!

Okay now that the Waid/Kitson run is finally over..this book sucks..we all wanted it to be something it never became. It was boring, slow paced, action-less, and a let down. It amazes me that it "seems" Mr. Levitz and Mr. Didio are now finally learning that all these reboots are not working, will not work, and continue to deflate because 30 plus years of Legion lore, characters, history, planets, intrigue. were wiped out of existance in 1994 never to return ..but
then..
A great Sat. morning cartoon and various appearances around the DC universe in JLA and JSA have done what all these reboots have not.
MYTH TAKES YEARS TO BUILD AND GROW.. it looks like with a little luck that the Silver age Legion into the Grell, Cockrum, Levitz and Giffen era..filled with history...maybe back.
Build on that mythology and your on the right track..

I have very mixed feelings about this issue. I think there were some good moments-- like the Knights Tempus (though they're sort of out-of-place, given that *this* LSH never sent anyone back in time to recruit anyone) and the hatching of Cosmic Boy's and Brainiac 5's ambitious, desperate plan.

But is Cosmic Boy the leader of the Legion of Super-Sheep? There should've been *vigorous* disagreement here. Maybe even to the point of part of the team fighting the other part.

What's he going to do if some of the Legionnaires have emotional problems due to thinking they stood by and allowed planetary genocide? I echo wamu2's concerns about minorities on the Dominion homeworld. As far as we know, it's still a caste-system-- are the lower castes as culpable as their oppressors?

For all we know, there's pockets of 'free' Dominators somewhere on that homeworld.

The sci-fi convention of the monolithic, one-dimensional 'evil' opponent world is one of the worst things about the genre, IMO.

This would've been a good time to introduce Infectious Lass to the cast, as her power might've been pretty handy.

Or Gas Girl, if she came up with a gas that rendered all the 'super-Dominators' sterile.

I know, I know-- that would've eliminated the need for the snazzy double-cross save of Mon-el, mirroring his Adventure and reboot origins.

Speaking of Mon-el, is he Super-Sheep #1? Can't he make his own decision? Maybe he'd *want* to be a Wanderer instead of a Legionnaire... would the LSH really hold back the antidote if he did? The choice shouldn't come down to what Rokk wanted v. what Mekt wanted... it should've been what *Lar* wanted.

I find it distasteful that the two blond, fair-skinned male Legionnaires (Sun Boy and Element Lad) are the ones voicing support of genocide. Are red and yellow the new brown-shirts?

Element Lad's support is especially disturbing, given the events of LEGION LOST. He's such a cypher in this boot, anyway.

I've been thinking about the Knights Tempus and the timing of their arrival. What if it was Rokk's perceived final solution that makes him a figure of awe in the 41st century? What if he arrives just in time to witness the destruction of a planet-- to honor his 'great deed'?

Oh, yeah-- the Dream Girl 'reveal'... so what the heck happened to her physical body?

I hope the Nura in the JLA/JSA crossover survives the storyline. I'd hate to *never* read a corporeal Dream Girl again.

Very well said.

I have done my level best to try to appreciate the positive elements of any run (if/when there were any), but other than Barry's artwork, the Waid run ranks down there with Conway's, and the later Moy run.

If JSA/JLA has proven anything, it's the power that the Real Legion still holds.

This issue was okay; Waid ended it as he ran it - with a partially executed story that never fulfilled its premise or promise.

The Trumanesque decision o whether to bomb or not came off (as others have said) as very weakly argued ethically, and while the Zone motif was an interesting idea, it was also a cop-out: now that the Zone is known to exist, someone;s gonig to try to exploit it, and what happens when such a person, deliberately or not, unleashes a bunch of angy, deadly Dominators, who have been able to keep eyes on the known universe, and all its secrets, without anyone knowing?

It also betrays a serious weakness in this LSH (Code or not), that such a perceived deed could be so quickly and quietly condoned without opposition: what if Eleemtn Lad turned Cos' Kryptonite into coal for an hour? Even Kara herself backs down far too easily - and I expected her to leave in a huff (a la White Witch in Levitz #50).

Ultimately, Waid gave us an outline of what could have been a good finale, but what little was fleshed out seemed tired and rushed - like someone throwing something together on the way out the door.

No one should dare critique DnA for weak finales after evaluating Wid's conclusions to his entire run, to the Wanderers subplot, or even the original Lemnos story.

2.5 years down the drain, folks. Only JLA-JSA and the cartoon leave me optimistic about LSH in general.

The idea that the majority of the Legion could be OK with seeming to commit mass genocide is repugnant to me. Even more repugnant than turning a blind eye when adversaries who have committed murder & mass murder switch sides.

It's too bad that we haven't had writing that was half as good as Barry's art.

The worst part about Waids whole Dominator War story to me was that the whole time I was reading it I kept thinking "God this sucks so bad compared to Giffens Dominator War from the 5YL run"

Wondering if we'll see what happened to Lemnos.... out of sight, out of mind?

While the idea of the Knights Tempus is attractive and restores Cos to his quintessential Legion leader role, it seemed pretty strange that he would just go off with some beings who appear out of nowhere and give him a flattering story. Maybe he was kidnapped. 41st century? Now I'm looking for the tale of the 11th century hero group....

Another odd thing was that murderess Jeyra Entin opposed blowing up the Dominators.

How is oh-so-spiritual Element Lad advocating genocide? Makes one wonder just what Trom did to Daxam.

The debate about what to do with a defeated/disabled enemy is pretty interesting, though. I like the aspect of this Legion that things are not clear cut for them; they have to deal with moral consequences of their actions. Still, maybe this is a comic book fantasy solution to war: make your enemy disappear. The 5YL Dominators were defeated, but, presumably, left to retreat to Elia to seethe and plot revenge.

I enjoyed the Waid run for the detailed universe he was building and the complex questions raised in the stories. It may have been too complex for a monthly comic book, though - and this is where a Legion novel series (as raised by wamu2) might have offered more space to explore in greater depth.

Barry's art was a delight throughout. I'm particularly sorry that we only got a taste of his White Witch. She looked really tough in that last image of her, not the naive wide-eyed kid of the pre-boot. Who knows? Maybe she could displace Shadow Lass as my favourite female character.

Now that's an interesting idea! Although I suppose we already have the Shining Knight, who's close enough...

And to try to get the place back from the Khunds.

Shinnning Knight
Viking Prince
Valda the Iron Maiden
Arak, Son of Thunder


I think these are all 9th century earth time but in the DCU it is pretty close

There's one question I'm amazed nobody has brought up yet. In the roll call page, the as-yet-nameless Coluan stood with the Legion. While this could be a coloring mistake, it seems pretty rare for the flesh-toned characters to be goofed up on, in comparison to the others. I also can't figure out who he was supposed to be, if he was supposed to be someone else. There was the Shady coloring gaff in this book, so it's not outside the realms of possibility that this was missed as well.

Any ideas on who it was supposed to be, if it was a gaff?

If it was a mistake, I foresee this mess between the Wanderers and Legion not ending anytime soon. If you look at the last few issues, the nameless Coluan has been working with Brainy all the way through. He couldn't have been cut off from recent projects (like the phantom zone bomb) without arousing his suspicions, and there's one scene where he's watching Light Lass assemble the bomb.

Now, if Mehkt is telling the truth about helping Mon-el out of the Phantom Zone, he had to have someone who'd been working on the problem. Am I the only one who thinks that person most likely would have been the team's resident genius?

The way I see it, there's several options. Mehkt's Coluan could...
...recognize what the bomb was and keep mum, supporting the Legion.
...recognize what the bomb was and tell Mehkt, starting off another round against the Dominators.
...not regognize the bomb due to incompetence, the writers not thinking he was that smart, or the new team not noticing the possibilities of that panel.


But I'd still like to know whether or not he stuck with the Wanderers.

I figured it was the Atomic Bomb option. The Dominators have destroyed Earth and are interested in genocide of the rest of the universe plus creating a mass army of evil.

They either cripple the Dominators NOW or the human race is finished.

I think that was Polar Boy.

Good point about the other Coluan, though. He should have figured things out, unless he's been totally awed by Brainiac 5's awesome genius. To whom will he owe his allegiance - a fellow Coluan or the Wanderers?

This was an interesting wrap-up with some twists. I liked it. In fact, I enjoyed WAK's run on the Legion. Character development was always more important to me than beating up baddies every issue and I think that Mark and Barry did develop the characters. They do have unique personalities and they tend to act based on their motivations.

Garth is somewhat impulsive. Mekt seems even more impulsive. Cos always tries to act for the greater good. Brainy is an ass, but an intelligent one.

Mark and Barry delivered some good stuff. If you want to be bitter, be bitter for 52 and the other junk that forced the story line to slow down and speed up so that it could accommodate these stupid DC universe arcs. IMO this run would have been much more polished if we did not have to sync up with 52 and now Countdown. Don't even dare put DNA in the same web page as these guys. WAK didn't do stupid stuff like turn Zoe into a...a...thing.

I too am disturbed by a Legion who dismisses genocide so easily. It reminds me of the way Orando's genocide was dismissed so easily earlier in the series.

It also bothers me that the entire Dominion race/planet is painted with a single brush. As I've stated before, I consider it lazy story telling to have every Dominator be evil, every Tharrian be short, all of Talok be desert, etc.

Also, I didn't see how the co-conspirators could have come up with the plan unless Cosmic Boy was playing dumb when Dream Boy mentioned the bomb. None of them were together until they were about to set off the "bomb." And I don't see how Mon-El could've known anything about it since he and Supergirl arrived later, after the debate was underway. It also seems cruel to me to send Mon to his death without telling him about the ruse.

And what was the sense of urgency about? They were talking about the Dominators rebuilding their destroyed planet and launching a new attack some time generations in the future wre they not? What was all this "The bomb has to be set off right now" business about? They could've easily postponed such a monumental decision as who dies to destroy an entire planet for a few days at the very least, or used the time to get UP authorization. The thought of a bunch of teens assuming the responsibility to commit genocide on their own authority gives me chills. The thought of a bunch of teens assuming the responsibility to commit genocide on their own authority gives me chills. It also brings up the "would you kill someone to prevent something bad that they MIGHT do in the future?" debate. That's a big issue to decide at a moment's notice based on some self-important teenager's say so.

Why didn't one of the telepaths pick up on the deceit? Maybe Imra was too goody goody to read her teammates' minds, but I doubt that Jeyra (sp?) would have such reservations.

And I was under the impression that PG was searching for the kryptonite in the HQ wreckage but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was the orginal phantom zone projector.

I find it hard to believe that such a tiny chunk of green k would deter the girl of steel from trying to do the right thing. She could've swept the bomb away at super speed before such a tiny pebble had time to affect her.

The extra green Legionnaire in the roll call could have been a miscolored Timber Wolf I think.

I'm glad Waid's run is over but will miss Barry's art.

I rather thought the endling was the best of the whole Waid run. As I mentioned before, I thought the first 20 or so issues were lacking nearly everything. The Dominator storyline had its moments and some of the characters were even beginning to get interesting. Still, I hope that this version of the Legion will further heat up under Bedards rule, otherwise I don't think that it has a very bright future...

I especially liked the ending, by the way. Very interesting twist - and nice to see the old Legion books lying around there.

The timing of all that bothered me too. I think the only way it works is if Dream Boy's confrontation of Cosmic Boy had been set up by those two in advance, to put on a show for the Wanderers.

And I'm convinced that Mon-El knew about the whole thing ahead of time.

The other Coluan has been shown to be "slower" than Brainiac. when Brainy made the transmatter gate out of junk parts,the Wanderer had no idea what he was up to.

Coluans are smart, but Briany seems to be much better at jury rigging stuff. The Wanderer guy probably just out of his depth.

I suspect part of the urgency of delivering the bomb was getting Mon-El back into the Phantom Zone as quickly as possible. He was clearly on his last legs. I doubt Mon knew anything about the plan. Cosmic Boy assumed that Mon was heroic enough to make the "sacrifice" without a moment's hesitation, and he was right.

Cos was definitely playing dumb about the bomb, imo. The timing may seem off because the story had to be compressed and build-up scenes excised. All in all, I think Wak did a pretty good job of wrapping up under the circumstances.

We may yet see ramifications of the "genocide" in Bedard's run, such as how some really Legionnaires feel about their ex-leader's decision in the aftermath of the war. The "Quest for Cosmic Boy" appears to be as much about bringing him to justice as it is about the Legion searching for a missing friend.

What was up with the color in this issue? There were several scenes of someone who was clearly colored to be Brainy, and even had the facial marks, but with the long shaggy hair that 75% of the guys have. It was strange. I know it's hard to keep that many characters straight, but it just felt kind of shoddy. Barry's art is great, but it just seemed like the inking and coloring were off.

It just seems like a lame-duck comic now with vintage Legion running around in JSA/JLA. I've actually been more interested in THAT Legion than I have been in these last 30 issues.

The thought of adults assuming the responsibility to commit genocide on their own authority gives me more chills.

Why exactly can't characters take stories on their own merits? Daleks are all evil, the United Planets is less wise than the children of the Legion, and its better to live free than under slavery.

Seriously, overanalyzing an act taken during war to cripple the Dominator Empire when the Earth had been reduced to rubble? Are Legion fans REALLY such insane pansies? Do you wail and cry that Mordor was destroyed at the end of the Lord of the Rings?

"My god! All those Death Star janitors were killed by Luke Skywalker! WHAT A MONSTER!"

:-p

Seriously, I thought it was a wonderfully badass moment where the Legion showed off they were willing to do what was necessary to protect trillions of lives against the threat of an enemy that wouldn't stop. It was taken with solemnity and understanding that it was an event that couldn't be avoided.

Yet the Legion, in typical heroic fashion, found a better solution.

That would be the Wanderer Coluan.

I very much enjoyed this issue, as I do most "last" issues for a creative team. Bary's art is just sublime. I am still not sure I can live without him (and I'm sorry, but Barry on "Champions" is like Rembrandt drawing the "Nancy and Sluggo" strip).

I think the whole point of the "Cos Genocide Option" (CGO) was to beat Mekt to it. It was a brilliant ploy, part Harry Truman, part Doctor Who. In many ways, it was a more realistic response to the near destruction of Earth than any other comic tale I can remember.

I'm struck looking back on the WaK run how it has been all about Cosmic Boy. This seems odd, since Waid and Kitson almost never talked about him. But this storyline cements this Cos as the most bad-ass leader EVAH! They took the back story of a not very interesting character (someone who founds a huge team/movement of super-powered youths) and played it out to its logical extreme. This Legion would be ungovernable, and would need a bad-ass Cosmic Boy to lead it.

I'm not saying I agree with this approach. As a contrast, look at Superman's remembrance in the JSA preview. His Legion had a sense of unity and camaraderie that this Legion lacks. If this Legion wants to survive in publication, I think it needs that sense of commitment. Maybe Waid wanted to go there--think back to the Triplicate Girl issue. Maybe Cos's departure, Mon-El's "death," the leadership election, can be that catalyst. For myself, I want to read a Legion where the members are diverse and alien to each other, but have a fanatical unity that would lead them to lay down their lives for each other in wacky schemes involving lightning rods.

I'm actually more of an insane daffodil than an insane pansy, and as such feel that the Dominator genocide runs counter to the core principles of the whole Legion concept, even if one acknowledges and allows that the threeboot is not necessarily a carbon copy of the earlier versions.

During its whole run, the threeboot version has tried to sell itself as depicting an idealistic movement of youths who strive for positive change and a better universe. Well, they'd probably call themselves that. They however permanently contradict those noble notions when it comes to anyone but themselves or other youths, the current genocide being only the last, most extreme example.

I'd expect and accept such behaviour from other super-hero teams, like, for example The Authority, who do hold each other to different standards. What I honestly can't imagine, however, is that this version of the Legion was intended to come across as similarly "anti-heroic" or "hardcore" or however you may call it, what with the reader being constantly told that it is a force of positive change. I mean, they even have a character whose name translates to "idealistic", and I simply can't interpret that as meaning "idealistic-but-only-if-you're-young-or-one-of-us".

I feel like I'm getting something different than what was advertised, with the narrative constantly screaming "those are great, idealistic kids" at me, and those great kids then acting counter to that. This Legion is simpering around, claiming moral superiority compared to their static society, and stressing the value of agency and independent thought, and then stand around doing nothing when their head schemers devise plans for what for them looks like a whole species being wiped out and one of their own being ordered to his death. And this division between intended and actual effect of their portrayal I can only attribute to flawed, superficial writing which is too lazy to grapple forethought or consequences.