Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion of Super-Heroes Sales Figures

You are entitled to your opinon of course...but tt's not Superman for starters, it's not Booster Gold, it's not Rogue's Revenge.

Of the 8 titles he's written since the LO3W period began, 4 have sold better, 3 have sold worse. None were coming from as far down as the Legion is and with as little set up...


If that is your definition of, "probably everything", more power to you, it's not a definition I share though.

I'd also point out that two of those titles, Flash and the JSA, did not sell as well as LO3W during Johns first run on them. It took him time to build them up. And he's been building up to this Green Lantern story for years now.

Much like he's building up the Legion IMO.


I mean people are acting like this Legion stuff is all just hacked out haphazardly but I can see clearly Starman was in the launch of his JSA title and Dream Girl has been stuck in the 21st century since the Lightning Saga.....which incidentally coincides with the time Johns brought Mon back in Action Comics Annual #10.

Let's see...

LO3W #1 was DC's 6th best selling title of the month(before the second printing).

LO3W #2 was DC's 8th best selling title.

LO3W #3 was DC's 5th best selling title.

LO3W #4 was DC's 10th best selling title.

LO3W #5 as already mentioned was DC's 13th best selling title(only because it came out the same month Blackest Night did, it would have ranked 8th if it didn't come out the same month Blackest Night did).


Ricardo my friend, I enjoying arguing with you, not because I believe I will ever change your mind on anything, but you do present me with the opportunity to post lots of things I analyze about the Legion.

That said old foe, it's patently absurd to say this title didn't earn monthly title status with that performance or qualified as anything other than a hit. Especially when you factor in all the delays, not to mention Blackest Night, Flash and Batman relaunches, the FC disappointment, 3 freaking Legions...etc.

The book sold better than 90+% of DC's line.

and you think they lost money on LO3W? If that's hte case they are losing money on 90% of their line and they should immediately cease publication on everything other than Batman, JSA, JLA, Flash and Green Lantern.

Aside from the fact that it didn't sell better than the Legion.

Didn't hold it's audience as well either...lost 10k fans off it's first issue, LO3W lost 4k, and took as long to get to it's second issue as Rogue's Revenge took to complete it's run.

All that inspite of the fact that it was spun out of the same series that brought Barry Allen back and featured the last fan fav writer artist team to work on the Flash and didn't suffer the delays LO3W did.

Vocal fans don't equal more fans and the Legion fans haven't been able to match the Flash Fan base all things being equal since Mike Baron relaunched the Flash and John Byrne killed the Legion in 1986.

On top of that, Johns and Kollins are fan fav Flash creative team...and Barry Allen came back in Final Crisis.

And lots of titles(pretty much all of them) have alternate covers, that doesn't hold readers that well.

Ricardo "old foe" :rolleyes: , you're wasting your time (IMO). Let me see if I can reflect your, "patently absurd" point without the twisting of words and logic.

You have been stating that you think DC might have had some sales "EXPECTATIONS" for L3W, some minimum that DC felt they needed in order to develop an on-going and that perhaps that minimum wasn't reached?

The gist of your thought as to why it might not have been a "hit" is that L3W, title aside, was written to pull in fans of Johns, Perez, Teen Titans, GL, Superman, the latest crisis, as well as Legion and so, 60,000 might still be considered marginal or low.

As argument you proffered that DC being in the business of profit, would have solicited an ongoing if the numbers had met EXPECTAIONS. Prime countered with "and you think they lost money on LO3W?", something you clearly did not say and did not imply.

Am I doing alright so far?

You are arguing why DC has not developed an on-going, not why they shouldn't develop an on-going, which he is twisting it to; a common political trick, change the other's topic in order to make their premises non-sensical.

Having reread the posts, Prime did make one valid point regards expectations but I've yet to see how his use of the numbers support a reason DC has not already developed an on-going.

I hope that's because he realizes that without knowing DC's EXPECTATIONS, the numbers are irrelevant but I don't think he cares. Based upon his use of this following patronizing twist of logic, he seems to only be arguing for the sake of arguing.

"It's patently absurd to say this title didn't earn monthly title status with that performance or qualified as anything other than a hit."

Well, it is a"patently absurd" statement but he said it, not you. The logic is equivalent to me saying "Halle Berry has me on speed dial OR the sun will come up tomorrow." It's assuredly true that the sun will come up so the statement as a whole is true even though there's no indication that Halle (still) has me on speed dial.

It's a common political trick, using an "or" to connect an arguably true statement to a false one in order to make both appear true. It could be true that L3W could be considered a hit but that doesn't mean it earned monthly status or that it could even be written as a monthly, given all the characters that would need be available.

Proof's in the pudding. As you state, there is no monthly, not even a suggestion of one by DC.


Given that the target audience included a portion considerably larger than and distinct from the normal Legion base, I don't see as unreasonable that DC needed to see higher sales on L3W in order to justify an on-going at this time. Their job is to put limited resources where they will maximize those profits.

It's quite possible that even DC realizes L3W wasn't a Legion book and that those sales do not reflect how well a Johnsboot Legion, even one written by Johns, would sell. 60,00 in this case might not be the "hit" some would want it to be.


Supes, I suppose there are a lot of ways to have a discussion, but demeaning, off-putting statements like "not because I believe I will ever change your mind on anything," "patently absurd," and "old foe," ignoring key words (expected) and twisting someone's logic could probably best be left out of it. Someone might react contentiously. Then again, maybe I misread your demeanor.

Do you mind if I take off the facade(which I like to call enforced passive agressiveness operating under the guise of civil discourse) and just lay my cards on the table here? I'm thrilled to do so...it's actually more productive when you can say what you really mean...and not have to pretend it's something else. I'll refrain from any vulgarity


I'm sure Ricardo appreciates you being offended on his behalf...however, since the comments were not directed at you and contained no vulgarity and in fact I was going out of my way to keep it civil, I frankly don't care if they offended you or not. You've made more than a few comments that I consider offensive, often that will be the entire purpose of your post directed towards me and it will have little or nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and I simply ignore it...so I feel you can also ignore the comments made at Ricardo in the course of an argument and let him be offended on his own behalf.

Since he's probaby the poster on here that offends almost as many, as many or, perhaps even more as I myself do...just on the basis of being purely opinionated in what he likes and what he doesn't...I don't think of him as a victim, I don't think he sees himself as one, and if he does then I definitely consider that a victory for myself.


And when I point out that LO3W, post the numbers to prove it in fact, did not sell worse than RR, and he still says it did....my point about the malleability of his opinion is hammered home. I don't necessarily think of it as an insult...and the old foe comment was referencing the fact that Ricardo and I have argued pretty much non-stop for the entirity of our time on the boards here, and there was absolutely nothing insulting about the term old foe unless you are oversensitive. Sometimes I start it, sometimes he starts it...but the bottom line is we have two drastically different views of the Legion
(although I do think we finally found common ground on the Shooter 3boot and DotLegion) and there is no reconciling that, there is also no making us like what we don't. It's never my intent to change his mind, for it cannot be done, it is my intent to post facts for the consumption of undecideds. Regardless of whether or not you like the methods of my delivery, the substance behind the points I make is almost always backed up by some form of provable fact.


And finally.....I realize the sales of LO3W were disppointing...I myself predicted a 100k first issue, in this very thread, I know what Ricardo is saying, I know what I am saying...


However the argument that sales were disappointing and the likely reason there is no Legion title, when there are roughly 5 titles that sell better and 80-90 that sell worse, is not just patently absurd, it's completely stupid,. Patently absurd WAS my nice way of putting it.

I appreciate the argument mediation and tips on civility btw, was helpful.

And I actually like being called Prime, it's hilarious in fact and probably the only comments you've made at me I acutally laughed at...by all means feel free to continue to referring to me as Prime.

I know I can be an ahole, what you don't realize is that I already got the good behavior speech and that was my good behavior.

If one takes a step back and looks at the Legion title over the last 5-6 years, DC can't be accused of not having top talent work on the characters. If you go back to Copiel and DnA and Batista and Kitson and Calero and Manapul - that's a pretty impressive list of feature artists. Throw in Jurgens and Giffen and Frank and Perez on a few of the features and that is top-of-the-line stuff. Add Bedard, Waid, Shooter and Johns to the scripting side, as well as Simone and Metzger and the writing roll call is very impressive as well.

What I'm trying to say is that DC is not skimping on assigning talent when it comes to the Legion - they are missing on the right formula as to what will sell. I'm sure they thought they would have a hit on their hands with Waid/Kitson, but it never materialized. I am certain they will take at least a year or more to spread the Legion around as guest stars or back-up features in other DC titles until TPTB feel they discover a solid template for a new Legion title that will become strong and vital for years to come. Don't be surprised if it happens in Adventure Comics around the 20th issue.

good point, KQ.

I don't blame DC for being a bit gun-shy on Legion.

Yes, L3W was a hit - there's no two ways about it.

DC has given LSH its share of relaunches and reasonably well promoted focal points for new readers to jump on during this decade: Lost #1, Worlds #1, The #1, The #25 (Superboy), TT/LSH x-over, Threeboot, Supergirl & the LSH, Shooter....

You can't say DC hasn't tried, and usually with one or more top guns in play.

I cannot blame them if they want to let anticipation build before v.6 (or whatever), rather than leap into another run that runs out of gas.

I think Adventure is a great venue for character-based stories rather than cranking out another universe-shattering saga.

And... I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Legion push Superboy out of "his" book.... it's happened twice before.

I totally agree, and suspect that the Legion taking over Adventure from Superboy at some point may be in the grand scheme of things from issue #1.

One thing DC could do is PROMOTE the Legion better. They had a golden opportunity in 2008 during the big anniversary and really dropped the ball IMO.

I suspect you both have something here, since various Legionnaires are clearly both behind the scenes and front and center in Superboy's segment of Adventure.

I don't think Superboy will be leaving, though, as much as he'll be joining up with the Legion.

Long coming but Blockade Boy nailed to the point my arguments and why I do not agree with the wishful optimism of Superboy. And I did take it lightly, BB, because Superboy is right on our usually very different opinions in here.
I would just add that, with L3W (a book geared towards all DCU fans at once: GL, Flash, Teen Titans with the toppest talent on the board) selling 60k copies, a new Legion book (probably without Johns) wouldn't sell over 30k by issue #5. Which means they would cancel it Aquaman-style.
Now the plan is to build Legion towards a dramatic conclusion in 2010 and THEN maybe give Legion another shot. And I will say it here again: it will be a James Robinson book. It might even be in Adventure Comics, though I doubt it - I think it will spin out. And maybe Aquaman can come into ADV...

Well, I think that DC is also building Conner up for a relaunch and book of his own, so it's 50/50 who will spin off on their own, possibly/probably both.

I don't think Conner is slated to join the Legion, he's a Titans guy.

And Jan, who is the youngest original Legionnaire, is Conner's chemistry TEACHER.
I'd say he's suppose to have his masters to teach chemistry in high school, so that makes him at least 23 - 24 years old.

Conner's not going to be interested in that age group when he can be with peers in the Titans (unless a breakup with Wonder Girl is super messy, but then the JSA would make more sense for him, grandfathering in that they do.)

My guess is that Chris and Tharra are going to take the Superboy/Supergirl places in the Legion.
I think that they may end up in whatever 'Zone' there will be, with Lar for that thousand years.

And darn it, Superboy, where did BB call you Prime?
That's too funny!!!

I agree with most of the above, Miss Candle.

It seems to me this version of the Legion will definitely be adults, closer in age to Superman than Superboy, as astutely illustrated by Teacher Jan. Though unless Chris and Tharra are aged to adulthood, I suspect the interaction of Superman and Supergirl with the Legion will remain being Kal-El and Kara. There is no question in my mind that TPTB plan on using the Superman Family to boister up the Legion.

Adventure Comics may be set up as the jump off point of new titles once a character(s) is sufficiently exposed/promoted/established and the sales allow it.

Hey all,

Look, I think, to be fair, it's ALL speculation at this point since we don't know what DC's expected margin (if any) on this series was, or what the longterm plan (if any) was.


That said, I think Adventure Comics is part of an overall plan on Johns part, only because it seems like the whole thing came from him rather than editorial.

It just seems odd to me that Didio would mandate that Johns write a Superboy book when the Superman property (outside of All-Star) isn't exactly doing gangbusters right now and then throw in the Legion back-ups as an afterthought.

I think the more likely scenario is that Johns has a plan for the Legion, but doesn't want to commit to it until after Blackest Night and Secret Origin are done. Therefore THIS book is the perfect opportunity to

A) clean up plot threads from both his Titans (Kon-el) and Action (Luthor/Brainiac) runs.

&

B) Keeping the Legion stuff percolating in the interim, while also keeping other people's hands off the property.

This is consistent with Johns and DC's success with Green Lantern/Blackest Night where they have been able to benefit from a slow build towards critical mass, rather than just dropping the bomb right off the bat.

Of course, I'm only guessing as much as anyone else, but even given the trainwreck scheduling of Lo3w, it looks like this Adventure run was already in the works, so I personally, don't think sales of Lo3W killed Legion's shot at a main feature, but rather Johns is doing a slow build with them.

I'll ditto Ricardo's call for a Robinson Legion in the next year or so.

Who are Chris and Tharra?

They are the new Nightwing and Flamebird in Action comics.

Chris is "Chris Kent", Zod's son who was adopted by Clark and Lois, now aged prematurely.

Not really clear on who Tharra is.

oy...

puh-leez keep them away from Legion...

Yes, this is all guessing on everyone's part, although some people may have more inside information than others.
I'm not one of those, however.


As to the current Action heroes, Tharra is a Kryptonian with the added power of Flamebird, the religious Dragon or Phoenix type of being who is at the center of Kryptonian theology.

She and Chris, as Nightwing and Flamebird, are like Hawkman and Hawkgirl, reincarnated 'soul mates' who are in their latest life cycle.

Chris was conceived and born in the Phantom Zone, the only child ever to be so.
This has effected his powers.
With Zod and Ursa for parents and the criminals as playmates, he's had a horrible childhood.

He's been aged past childhood a couple of times and I'm not sure where the two are, age wise, now.

I know that Tharra is a close friend to and contemporary of Kara's, though.

The two don't fit on Earth or New Krypton really, and are major targets of General Lane.
So, I think, maybe, they're going to meet the Guardian and Mon El soon.
Chris might recognize Lar and etc., if you follow my train of thought.

Ricardo, I sincerely do enjoy arguing with you, as it's not that easy to find Legion fans that like to argue, and I really don't think I am ever going to change your mind on anything. It's really not an automatic instult. Not to state the obvious but my mind isn't easy to change once it's made up either.

I just sense what I feel is unjustified cynicism towards Johns intentions. I think he likes the Legion a lot. And I think this Legion bring back has been in the works for a long time. And it was intended to be long term from the start.

I mean, I can actually see this in the works as far back as Infinite Crisis, when they showed Superboy(Kal) was more or less back.

They didn't bring Superboy back to put him back in his own title(mainly because they had just lost his rights, or were about to)....his returned served one purpose, to bring back the Pre-Crisis Legion(or some semblance of it). You could not do that without bringing him back.


So add in that, to Starman being in the launch of the JSA by Johns, Mon-El coming back in that Action annual written by Johns, Dream Girl...


It seems to me, they are actually putting the Legion through the process that birthed it in the first place.

The Legion did not automatically launch in it's own title, it appeared as a gueststar for 3-4 years before going into a co feature with Superboy in Adventure.

Prior to that, it was solo Legionnaires or sometimes a small group, usually traveling back to the 20th century to appear in one way or another with Superman, Supergirl, or Superboy.

That is exactly what they are doing now....bringing it back in bits pieces, the exact same way it was originally born.


The same path...

Might seem kind of overly literal, except for the fact that the Legion's A#1 problem is attracting new readers in significant numbers...

Sprinkling them throughout the Superman books(among others) is exposing them to those new readers...and that's probably very similar to the way the Legion originally was exposed to new readers...it wasn't like Legion fans were automatically picking up every Legion appearance off the Newstands in 1959-60...people were reading Superman stories and getting exposed to the Legion in the process.


This is the way the Legion was actually born, the way it built it's original(and largest) audience...

There was no #1 issue where the 3 founders save RJ Brande...that is not the way it truly began, that is not what truly started it all.


And now they are in Adventure, with Superboy, about where they were 3- years after their original debut.

And it's been about 3 years since they were brought back.

Regardless of whether or not you like Johns...you gotta admit the man is more successful than anyone else at DC at bringing characters back.


It's very similar...right down to the demand of the fans for more Legion, and the uncertainty over whether or not they were ever going to get it


It's like 1961 all over again...this time we're truly there at the beginning.

And I know at the very least we should get a JMS Legion series out of this if the call of Hollywood(and movies about DC Superheroes) is too much for Johns to ignore.


This Legion will get it's own title after Johns builds it up...I could see it being tied into New Krypton, I could see it being somehow tied to the never shown first battle with Mordru(that is Alan Scott entombed on Xerox)....


Possibly even a scheme by Brainiac 5 to bring his Kara back and fix everything as it was, perhaps his love for her survived the wiping out of multiuple realities. Would be kind of in character for Brainiac 5...to recreate reality to save his girl.


And I'm pretty sure they'll want the team to have the stage all to itself when they do it, not going up against Batman reborn and Blackest Night or Final Crisis etc.

Levitz and IMO Johns are fully aware the Legion was the best selling team of the Silver Age.

That's the magic they are trying to recreate.


Johns is even basically telling us that in Adventure #1 with his what did Superman do narrative...

Retracing the steps if you will...

I know! As I once posted, Legion is such a powerful concept that almost completely different views are capable of being part of the theme and we'll get along just fine. I think my view on the topic of sales comes from the fact that I study the publishing industry and work in strategy and marketing. So, if I were an editor at DC and looked at those numbers, that would be my take.

Good thoughts, Superboy!

I'd suggest, if true, this is exactly what Legion needs. Big relaunches/reboots have not worked as hoped - Legion is not a Generic Team Series with automatic appeal where that approach is a given. Legion is too big for that - even a complete 'boot relies on the assumption that a reader understands that the big, scary backstory is out the window (yet it tends to seep in. Would it really be Legion if it didn't?).

If,as we so oft hear, the Legion backstory is the obstacle, then the way to overcome that is through gradualism, by peppering it in and making it digestible - and by making it intrinsic to the Superman family. Even if Kal and Kara are not regulars, regular connections serve as an ongoing portal.

Any doubts that L3W was not enough? Dan Didio squashes it here, in his DC Nation at Toronto Comic-Con (on Newsarama).

“The problem with Legion of Superheroes is the big cast and my biggest personal problem was the lack of Superboy and the inspiration for the team,” offers DiDio. “That was so key to the origin and so key to so much going on there that without that, without Superboy to inspire the team, it lost its own purpose and just became a team. It was something set in the future, but it didn’t have a real tether to what was going on in the DC Universe currently. What we are trying to do is rebuild that time, rebuild that sensibility, and hopefully rebuild a Legion that is a strong powerful set of characters in the DC U again.”

Funny that what is the teams biggest asset (the large cast) becomes a liability. What made the team successful in the 80s and 90s (Superboy either sideways or out of it) is also seen as problematic. Being out of continuity brought the best out of the team - every time DC tried to tie it to continuity, Legion lost. DC is still missing the point about the Legion.

I agree with DiDio on Superboy.

The Legion was the best selling teambook in all of comics during the 1960's,the best selling DC teambook in the 1970's,and the 2nd best selling DC teambook in the 1980's.

After Kal-el was retconned then removed from their continuity,they had 6 ongoing titles cancelled,before he was removed the Legion took 2 of Kal-el's titles away from him Adventure Comics and Superboy!

I agree 100% with what Didio said. He's exactly right.

I think Keith Giffen would say the same thing, so would Jim Shooter, and Mark Waid and Paul Levtiz. And every other writer that's tried to write it.


The big cast of characters is a huge problem when none of them are recognizable, but....them being a huge cast of characters, none of them recognizable, becomes a huge plus when paired with the most recognizable superhero in history.

That is exactly how it works.

And I realize fans that that weren't attracted to the book because of that are not going to feel that is a strong appeal but I believe it is the absolute strongest appeal the Legion ever had.


It sounds likes L03W was never intended to be the relaunch to me, since Didio was talking about Superboy and the Legion series before LO3W even began. He's saying it's going to relaunch with Superboy...

And I don't think Conner is his first choice, since Conner isn't exactly reconizable himself...

Which also ties into what I have been saying about the Superboy/Superman litigation being opart of the hold up including IMO, why it took so long fo LO3W to finish.


They are going to try it with Conner, but he's not an anchor character. And it's pretty obvious that Didio realizes that.

The big cast is a liability when no one knows who any of them are.


I love the big cast of the Legion, but you take Superman out of that equation and it becomes daunting and intimidating...


You put Superman/boy in it, the character everybody recognizes like the back of their hand, and that daunting huge cast all of a sudden isn't so daunting, because there's at least one character they know, that everyone knows.

More importantly, it helps Superman, because all of a sudden here's this entire other reality that no one is familiar with, and he's no longer a character that is in a totally known and boring environment. And that is an appeal that draws readers to the book.


It works, it always worked. It may not work for fans that didn't need Superman to be interested in the Legion originally, but those are part of that 25k base that just isn't enough to stave off fixes and reboots and retcons...and new fans of that type don't join the book in significant numbers.


And I really don't think LO3W was intended to be the official relaunch of the Legion, it was intended to expose them to new audiences. Like the Titans, Flash and GL audiences...and clean up the confusion about their place in the multiverse. Which it pretty much did.


One more comment on the big cast...the Legion actually needs a bigger cast, I don't think you should ever know the backstory and be familiar with every Legionnaire. There should always be a couple of mysteries. But that only works as a plus with an anchor character.

They also not need to screw with all the costumes, some of the best ones need to remain...revamp the cruddy ones but leave the memorable ones. It's pretty much a mistake to mess with the best of the Cockrum costumes, it's a mistake IMO to mess with Ultraboy's costume and Mon-El's...they need to leave Wildfire in his original costume...and the Legion needs to be sexy, that contrasts with the way people feel familiar with Superman even more.

And 2 books please....one for the diehards, and one with more mainstream aims(Superboy).

They'd be pretty interesting characters if pared down. Right now, the kryptonian powers kind of 'get in the way' of developing the interesting bits (her connection to the 'flamebird,' his to the 'nightwing' and the zone itself).

Disagree.
Disagree.
And disagree.
sorry