Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! LSH #50 Spoilers

yah.

Yes, I could draw a comic, but not very speedily! lol That would take practice and fewer committments than I have at the moment! There's a reason these guys do it for a living!
I did do an issue of a comic a friend wrote, but nothing ever cam of it : ( I was looking at the artwork recently and got all nostalgic!

I've often wondered about getting into the industry, but I worry about having to churn stuff out, and not your own stuff, whether I'd lose my joy of drawing... grass is always greener ; )

Variation on a theme. I didn't think it deserved its own thread, but...

I sent an email to Paul Levitz, short and to the point, about how disappointed we were as fans and that a group with such history deserved better. I put a link to this thread in the email.

He replied! He said he appreciated my concerns and that he has "a hard time being objective about the Legion since my own long affiliation" but that he would pass my/our concerns along to the editors.

Only problem is, since it is a defunct book, will it do any good?

I do appreciate the class he showed in replying, however.

Arm Fall Off Boy...very nice. Classy.

And while i didn't expect a reply from Mr. Levitz to you, that just shows how classy he is as well. Just wish some of the class that the former creators and the fans here show would end up on the regular book page.

That's consistent with the several interactions I've had with Paul Levitz. And this isn't meant to be a criticism of him, but:

it's possible that part of the reason why the Legion has been kicked around the way it has is because Paul Levitz, in an effort to be fair, doesn't do anything to protect it, even to the extent that he would try to protect one of DC's other franchises.

Frankly, I wish he'd be a little more partisan. What's the good of being the boss if you don't get a few perks? Like making sure the fans of the book you are most closely identified with creatively don't get treated so poorly.

Wow, I finally got the issue and have to say.... HUH???

I read it, thought it was rather lame but kind of okayish compared to Waids lame-fest before, and then after reading it - by the way, sitting in the restroom, a very fitting place I guess - I stood up, went to my collection, put it into the correct folder, stood there and then, suddenly, it struck me....

WHERE WAS PROJECTRA????????

I mean, #49 was a pretty good issue, building up to a major climax leaving Tinya severely injured and Imra brainwashed... and then... this???

It's really the ultimate infamy to dish out an issue like this which has actually nothing to do with most storyelements which came before. It's an infamy to the customers who spend 3 damn bucks on such a load of crap! It's the climax of infamies done by DC.

And this is saying a lot after the total and utter jibberish that Final Crisis was, but hey - that's Morrison and I just don't understand it as I am told - but this is the final straw. I don't know what to do with DC. I love the DCU and many of its creations, but how can I go on spending money on it when it's such an utter load of crap?

My conclusion: I'll only buy the Green Lantern books for the time being, and JSA - even though I'm skeptical on Johns leaving, but Willingham is a great writer to follow him.

Everything else has to go. No more "events", no more JLA, no more Titans - another crapfest - no more cool books of the month. I'm suddenly free to spend some money on interesting Indie books - thank you, Dan DiDio!!!!

Yeah, lot of that going around.

I am totally disgusted after reading LSH 50.

The only plausible excuse I can get for TPTB ending the series the way they did was because they just didn't like what Shooter was doing to the characters in general. Primarily Imra, Garth, Jo and Projectra.

But then I think about other things that have happened over the years to even more beloved characters like Element Lad / Progenitor and I am not sure that theory holds water.

I guess it is all just speculation until Didio or someone from DC steps up to let the fans know what the hell happened.

I definitely feel like I have been slapped in the face with the way that story-arc and series ended. The quality story and art happening over in L3W isn't even enough to take away the sting.

I don't post on here very often, but I have been reading Legion for about 35 years. Been through the good and the bad. But I don't EVER remember having felt as cheated as I do now.

It makes sense. Moreover, his job these days is much less about "general book directions" and more about broad business ideas and schmaltzing. So I don't think Levitz would go that far down to personally kick around about one book. He supposedly hates 5YL and still supported it as far as I know.
And he is really a class act: I still have his letter with answers to my ridiculously badly written one (my English was not really strong back then), sent 19 years ago. All personally answered, there was no "bulk" stationary crap. That's probably why I never read a bad thing about Levitz.

I think it bothers him to know what has happened with the book, but I also think he is in a place where, even though he is one of the big bosses, he has more to think about than just one unhappy segment.

Everyone keeps saying that Dan Didio is a really nice guy...and that may be the problem. Nice guys get walked over. Even guys that just try to be decent and fair.

Sometimes, it takes an ahole to come in and light a fire under people. Shooter might have been hated at marvel, but the product came out on time. And, marvel did pretty well back then from what i understand.

To get things done, it takes a firm hand on the reigns.

Ouch! Let's say this is the final nail in the coffin for my respect for Dan Didio as a manager. From CBR live coverage of DC Nation at NYCC:

- What happened to the end of Shooter's Legion of Super-Heroes? DiDio: We don't cover that. It was a pseudonym at the author's request. We cancelled the book, finished it and shoved it out the door. Thanks for asking that.

No, Dan, thank YOU for being so nice to us and to a pro like Shooter.

Painful, but oddly funny too.

The really bad thing about this whole thing is the same thing that was really bad about the end of the 5YL run. Missed oportunity for a balls to the wall anything goes story. I mean lets face it the chances of the 3Boot Legion being seen again after Legion of 3 Worlds is probably pretty slim, and for good reason. We all know that it is going to be Johns semi-classic version that is going to be back when all the dust settles, and I am happy about that.

But knowing that they could have gone wild with end of the 3boot and just blown the doors off the thing. Instead they gave us a patheitc ending that satisfied no one. Event he 3boot deserved better than this for a climax.

Question asked to Didio at the NYCC

- What happened to the end of Shooter's Legion of Super-Heroes? DiDio: We don't cover that. It was a pseudonym at the author's request. We cancelled the book, finished it and shoved it out the door. Thanks for asking that.

wait so.... shooter DID write it or DIDN'T? what... does that sentence mean? ;_; i'm not wearing my didio-decoder ring.

wait wait wait. reading this thread over...

so... if it's shooter or levitz's fault, we give them a pass and suddenly it's "man, we feel so much pity for them" but if it's NOT their fault, it's "THIS BOOK WAS HORRIBLE AND DAN DIDIO'S HORRIBLE AND SHOULD BE FIRED". wow.

again, i do not envy mr. didio's job.

No, I think it was horrible no matter who did it. And no matter what circumstances caused it (forgivable or not), it's still horrible.

There is no 'winning' an argument on the internet. You don't like Shooter (indeed, all of the 'shouting' suggests that you loathe him as a person). Other people don't. You support Dan Didio's choices to sensationalize the DCU by adding gratuitious events like what happened to Sue Dibney or Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, as well as the various slaughters and brutalizations of characters by Black Adam and Prime. Other people don't. As in all matters of taste, there is no right or wrong, and Dan Didio's choices have clearly appealed to a large chunk of the audience who think that Black Adam and Prime are total badasses because of all the teenaged girls they've punched to death. Good for them. That sort of thing turns me off, but if other people will pay money to buy that sort of stuff, then Dan Didio must be doing something right to move the DCU in that direction, even if I don't feel like that's really what I want to see in superhero comics.

Typing in all caps is the internet version of shouting. Shouting doesn't 'win' arguments either. From the amount of 'shouting' going on, it's obvious that you feel very, very strongly (pun intended!) that we should be nicer to Dan Didio and meaner to Jim Shooter, but the shouting isn't going to convince anyone to change their minds. Indeed, it's more likely to entrench them in the opposite mindset, just as shouting at someone in the real world is more likely to 'put their back up' and make them disagree with you on general principle.

Shooter's done plenty of assy things, particularly in his portrayal of some of the female Legionnaires, and his biggest defenders here (such as me) have pointed those times out and criticized him for it. Nobody in the industry is pure evil or unalloyed perfection, and I can list off some neat ideas that Rob Liefield has come up with, and some really lame ideas from the mind of Jack Kirby.

This messageboard is filled with people who stuff (characters, artwork, writers, storylines) that I don't like, or even actively dislike. That doesn't make them wrong, or give me license to shout at them for their differences of taste.

no no, i'm just saying, let's spread the love and hate evenly and reasonably. if you read my very long winded, whiny, biblical length posts on shooter, i do mention the things i think he does well , he does have a talent for characterization and development, my problem is that he doesn't lend those talents to the female cast.

i see VERY little pity for didio, but plenty of forgiveness and pity for shooter and writers in general. it just sucks to me that when things are going great it's all about the writers and the artists, and when things are going bad, it must be editorial's bad. and i doubt as many people here even know the name of the actual editor heading this up (marts, btw). i don't see anyone going "down with marts" it's "down with didio". he's an easy target and i think we are all clever enough feel for EVERYONE that brings us the books we like.

dammit set, i will one day figure out a way to use "set" cleverly as a pun but it never fits in properly....

the caps are for emphasis, and in this case, an imitation of the obvious rancor felt by people for didio. i'm not trying to use shouting to win an argument, i'm trying to point out hypocritical behavior, and logical inconsistencies in order to prove my point.

veryvery,

I'm not sure I get your point. There are enough posts -- Frances' saying he and Shooter moved on and adding that he doesn't know who wrote the book and Klordny's saying Shooter disclaimed authorship -- to support that this was not Shooter's work. So Shooter did not write the book.

Are you arguing Shooter should be blamed for leaving the book (assuming he left instead of being fired)? I don't know why he should. Just because comics are a business does not mean that writers have to abandon their vision for their work. It's always a tension in the medium, but if Shooter did not want to be the one to bastardize what he had been developing with the Threeboot because TPTB decided late in the game that they want a different result, Shooter is under no obligation comply. He is not a slave. He can walk away and forfeit some of the money he would receive from DC, but for some people, that is a better outcome than compromising one's artistic vision due to corporate pressure.

As for blaming Didio, he's the head of DC. The buck stops with him. All of the problems with the Legion in what was supposed to be the big 50th Anniversary Celebration ultimately fall at his feet.

I think the "corporation" vs. "artist" dichotomy, though often cited, belies some important factors of comic-book publishing. Here are some factors that I quickly came up with as guidance to potential comic-book writers.


If the writer doesn't realize that stories must occasionally accommodate editorial decisions (or "corporate pressure" if you want to evoke more individualistic nobility), then he or she should probably self-publish.

If the writer doesn't realize that his or her work is immediately incorporated into a "franchise"--that it becomes part of something greater than just the writer's submission, then the writer should insist on writing original, insulated characters/teams.

If the writer doesn't care enough about the fans of the book to strive for a conclusion to stories in which those fans have invested, then maybe he or she should add to the stories a disclaimer to that effect.

AWP,

I agree with some of those points, but I think there are different rules for different writers. Guys like Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison are pretty much given carte-blanche to do what they want to when they take over a book. We don't know what assurances Shooter was given when he came back to LSH. Remember what a big deal it was? How DC was trumpeting the return of Shooter to the Legion? DC had a dying book and needed to do something to revive it. To have Shooter come back, they had to have promised him a lot of freedom to write *his* story and, from all reports, he gave them a pretty good outline of what he intended to do. So they knew his plans from the outset and he knew they were approved.

Given those circumstances, the "artist" side deserves some respect. It looks like DC's plans then changed because they liked the response to the Lightning Saga. They then decided to give Johns Lo3W, and the writing was on the wall for the Threeboot. Then, the TPTB cancel the book and cut Shooter's planned story by several issues. Even then, Shooter appeared willing to accept those business/editorial decisions. But -- and I have no confirmation on that -- TPTB then forced changes in how Shooter planned to resolve his by-then nearly completed arc. (I suspect this was necessary because Shooter's ending would have created a continuity nightmare for Lo3W. You can't add Sun Boy during Shooter's last few issues and kill a Legionnaire in the last issue, yet have them both appear in Lo3W.) At that stage, I don't fault Shooter for throwing up his hands and saying, "This is not my vision for these characters, and I am not going to be blamed for this lame ending."

*quitely raises hand...

Ummm, Very Very, I did talk about Marts, up above. You probably missed it, but we did talk about him, about an interview I saw with Chuck Austen, and about how the same psuedonmym(sp?) was used by Marts at some point.

Not trying to be snippy with you. But, honestly, after #50, its just way to many straws for that poor old camel as far as i am concerned.

Did you consider when writing your guidelines that in this instance, by shortening the run three issues AFTER THE STORY HAD BEEN WRITTEN (<== not yelling, emphasizing. ) ... they put their artist in a lose-lose position?

..are you really being fair here?