Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes The Complete Continuity Match-Up Checklist: from Baxter to Levitz Relaunch (revised)

I think the KK and Lu's places on the current list are appropriate and the related issues need to be addressed. I'm also fine with mistakes being overlooked, at times. Not here, though. Countdown was advertised as being central to understanding where the DC Universe was going. As with any series, I would be be fine letting minor mistakes in Countdown slide, but not major plot lines. Their involvement was substantial, and as EDE points out, Karate Kid was a major player in the Lightning Saga.

Pretty comprehensive list, btw. I agree with most of the categorization. Carry on.

Also fixed the statues. The disappearances hadn't happened as of Legion of Three Worlds and are a red herring.

This is a great thread Ken! I kept meaning to do something like this but was too lazy so well done to you for putting all the effort into it!

Going through some of the things you mention -

* I don't think even DC has fully decided yet what's going on with that whole pocket-Universe idea. Retconning it out completely invalidates a whole bunch of good storylines that I'd hate to lose, but working it into current continuity seems like it would require a 12 issue-long byzantine explanation.

I still say that it all could have happened and the effects of it (like Mon and Lu dying) were just reversed somehow between the end of the Baxter run and the beginning of the Johnsboot.

* The statues are a complete non-issue to me and don't really belong on this list IMO. Artists leave characters off group shots all the time. Doesn't mean anything.

* The Miracle Machine could have been rebuilt or something between S&LSH #251 and Final Crisis. Or else it just willed itself back into existence. It is the Miracle Machine after all. Not much of an issue for me.

* The Wildfire/Red Tornado and Jeckie/two hearts things need to be forgotten and never mentioned again!

I feel like there are a few other things you've missed but I can't quite think of them now. If I remember them I'll let you know.

One that I don't think is an issue though is this one -

I'm really not seeing that in the issues of Lo3W I've got. He's got a beard yes but doesn't look any older than the others to me and his skin tone still looks a lot more orange/yellow/grey (whatever the colourists use to denote 'other' race characters) than the caucasian Legionnaires.

Couldn't there be more than one Miracle Machine? The Controllers built the thing. It always seemed to me improbable that they gave away the only one they had.

^ That's a good point Eryk.

I forgot to mention re: Karate Kid -

In my mind what I think they were trying to do with him was... they knew they were bringing back the 'original' Legion and whoever was planning that (Johns and Meltzer?) were probably big Val fans who thought they'd give him one last hurrah before putting him to sleep again.

So they gave him a few cool moments in JLofA (and if he hadn't been rather ridiculously jobbed by Batman in their fight that would have been a cool moment too) as well as a starring role in what was supposed to be their BIG series of 2008(?)(though we all know how that turned out).

But he was always scheduled to die again so as not to change the status quo of the Baxter Legion too much (and I think Giffen even said as much - that the decision to kill Karate Kid in Countdown had already been made and he just jumped at the chance to write it).

Maybe after Tenzil, uh, passed, what was left of the Miracle Machine, it re-assembled itself?

Miracle Poop!

I'm asking that we recognize a mistake in something that's already so full of mistakes that it's out of continuity anyway for reasons that have nothing to do with the Legion. It was advertised as central, but it turned into a complete mess. It's not as if its only mistake was related to the Legion.

Ken has a point. Countdown had massive effects on Captain Atom, Jimmy Olsen and other characters that are now being essentially ignored. It might not even exist in continuity at all. It doesn't even tie into Final Crisis. *If* no one ever addresses it again, there is no evidence it exists in continuity just like there is not evidence it does not exist in continuity. It's simply too ambiguous.

That being said, I would LOVE if Paul came in and straitened it out.

As for the Pocket Universe--it simply does not exist. I know some of us might want to hang on to it, but if this is the original pre-Crisis Legion with Superboy, all logic says the Pocket Universe is now void. This is something that I think we can all assume will never be addressed either.

I suspect the Magnetic Kid question will be answered in the first few issues of the Legion series.

Whatever you do with Countdown itself, the fact remains that Karate Kid needs some sort of explanation, since he was prominent in the Lightning Saga, and Duplicate Damsel's power upgrade has to be explained somehow, so her history needs to be straightened out. I don't think there's any escaping it, *if* you want to have a coherent Legion continuity.

Paul should handle it this way: three pages, 12 panels, part of a much better, more important story that requires a little backstory explanation.

An explanation for KK in two panels:

Panel 1:

caption: Brainiac Five's Multi-Lab

Sun Boy: Hey Brainy! Cosmic Boy sent me down here to... hey, are you working on that cloning machine again?

Brainy: Yes. While I've managed to drastically increase the lifespan of the clones from a day when we created the Lyle Norg and Andrew Nolan clones, it still appears as though any clone we create will only have a lifespan of a few months, as did the Val Armorr clone we created recently.

Panel 2

Sun Boy: Well, keep at it. Anyway, Cosmic Boy wants to know [something relevant to the current plot]

Well, Countdown is explained for Luornu, in that Legion of Three Worlds scene--yes, a body of Luornu's died in Countdown, no, it wasn't her last one contrary to what Countdown implied.

Also, in other Legion connections, Superboy Prime's appearance in Countdown seems to not be in continuity either. I don't have the issues, but someone made this comment on tvtropes.org:

Has anyone with DC said that Countdown isn't in continuity? My beef isn't with confused fans. It's with DC editorial. The new Legion creative team should address these issues rather than just ignore them. Some fans invested over $150 in the series. When Levitz takes over he should provide some explanation. It might be big of us to put it on a list and say it was a mistake so he doesn't have to. I don't think we should. We're letting DC off the hook too easily if we do.

Jerry, I agree with you but with one major difference. I,too, feel DC owes us an explanation--I got taken by Countdown too and you can see that thread for me ripping it apart. But I don't want the explanation in Paul's LSH; I don't want him to be hampered by it and think it's unfair. He shouldn't be on the hook--I'd much rather it be in an annual, secret files or even an interview. Just not in the new series. Please no more continuity-fix driven stories! We want new ones!

So I'd rather another avenue for an explanation. But yeah, I'd like something too.

I couldn't agree more Cobie!

For me, it does fall to Paul. Whether it be in the main series, Adventure, a special or annual, or interview doesn't matter. Paul wrote the original death of Karate Kid. The Legion has been rebooted twice (at least) since he left the series. DC screwed loyal readers and buyers of both reboots at the end their respective runs. DC screwed loyal readers who picked up Countdown on the promise that it featured characters who were part of Levitz's "classic" Legion.

Yes, we need to move on. Yes, we want new stories. No, we don't want to get forever bogged down in fixing continuity glitches. Ultimately, though, many of us don't yet accept this new version as the team that Levitz once wrote. He has stated that it is. If that's his vision, it is his job to sell it to an audience that has some good reasons to be skeptical. I don't see how he can accomplish that while ignoring major elements of the story that reintroduced his team and brought back a character he killed off. Also, Paul is, and always has been, a DC company guy. I believe that he is the type of man who would feel a responsibility to make things right with readers who feel that they've been wronged by the company.

Again, part of it for me is the size of the issue. I don't need every little glitch to be fixed. Karate Kid's resurrection was a major part of the story line that introduced this version of the team. Levitz is capable of making an interesting story out of it.

Hopefully it will just be a quick line or two so we can get down to the business of new stories and new adventures. I have waited many many years for this and I'm not really interested in a story about Karate Kid's resurrection since he is already dead again.

I get that some people who read Countdown might want some sort of explanation for the craposity of it... but what about all the rest of us who bailed on that sinking ship very early on and haven't thought about it since?

Should our enjoyment of the new Legion book be hampered by a writer forced to undertake the herculean task of spinning gold from that bag of shit?

I don't think so. DC's writers and editors have clearly all moved on and pretended nearly everything to do with that mess never happened. And most readers are perfectly happy for them to continue to do so. I don't think we (or the new writers who didn't have anything to do with that turd) should be beholden to those who need some sort of explanation for every little detail in that clusterf--- of a book that doesn't match the continuity they remember.

I don't even see what needs explaining from it -

* Karate Kid was brought back to life in an as-yet untold story. Shortly afterward, he tragically died again.
* In another as-yet untold story, Duo Damsel gained the ability to create multiple copies of herself. One of those bodies went back in time and died.

The end. What else needs explaining? And do those stories need explaining anyway? The Legion have loads of unexplained stories in their history (see: Mordru and the Legion, First Meeting of).

you said it much better than I could have Blacula

Wow. Comic fans really have become jaded by all the death in comic books. Bring back a major character. Kill him off. No explanation needed. Fair enough. I stand corrected.

I can outdo Blacula. I don't much care because I wasn't around for Countdown and couldn't care less about it or any other Big Event of the last two decades. Just get on with it and tell me some damn stories, DC.

Well I'm just one fan. But I know where you're coming from Jerry. Even though, yes - I have become a very jaded comics fan thanks to the constant and unwelcome cycle of death, death, death and rebirth in them, I think my reluctance to want to go back to the Countdown well is because it was SUCH an awful, awful, awful story.

If Karate Kid's story had been told anywhere else, I probably would want to know more about it. But if learning more about Val means having to think more about that above-mentioned turd then I think I'd rather just cut my losses, y'know?

Well, I'm not saying you're wrong, but by this argument, THESE new stories don't match up with the continuity I remember, because they ignore the 5 year gap. And we have a decade and a half of reboot and threeboot members who aren't seeing the Legion they grew up with.

I learned a LONNNNNNG time ago (with the pocket universe) that while I love the rich history and, yes, the sense continuity of the Legion, I can't be that picky, because the company doesn't care. So, the writers aren't going to have to, either.

It would be funny if, somewhere in the first few issues of the new Legion, Karate Kid joined for a mission, and, while it would never be stated in text, it would basically indicate that his death in Countdown was now dis-continuity.

Even funnier... Chemical King just shows up for a few issues with no explanation, then dies again, and no one seems to find it odd!