Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion of Super-Heroes #3 - SPOILERS

Unless time manipulation is involved, Darkseid couldn't be around because he was killed in Final Crisis. Levitz can omit things, but I doubt he will edit over Final Crisis.

I would prefer Validus to have a non-Ranzz origin. I have too much knowledge of child development to suspend disbelief.

Darkseid's dead now, but I don't expect that to last...do you? (Actually, I'm not completely sure he was killed. The status of the New Gods right now totally confuses me.)

Regardless, the more I think about it, the more sure I am that Levitz wants us to believe Darkseid's about to show up. I'd just about lay money that he isn't going to. Not because Darkseid's "dead" but because it just doesn't feel like it's gonna be that kind of story.

As far as Validus's origin, I think Paul's about to clarify that once and for all.

I've been on vacation (and otherwise pre-occupied), but I just wanted to chime in that I was RIGHT about the whole Titanians/Lanothians thing. The Titanian species that Saturn Girl and Saturn Queen belong to ARE descendants of human colonists who somehow learned/developed telepathy from the Lanothians! Problem solved. Let's move on. Where are the Lanothians now? Who cares? Until/unless someone has a good story to tell about them, it's part of the 1,000 years of future history sitting out there to intrigue readers (or not).

Now, having gloated about my own successful continuity hoop-jumping, I have to say when it comes to the subplot of the Lightnin'/Titan twins (hard to type, but fun to say), I HOPE Levitz is trying first and foremost to tell a good story about the characters, rather than rationalize a bunch of conflicting past stories about them. Like CT, I'm convinced that not all is as it seems with Graym and Garridan and Avalon, and I'm kind of excited to find out the truth, whatever it turns out to be.

I LIKE the idea of Mekt having a "lost twin," even if it turns out not to be true. If you are Mekt, wouldn't you invent the idea of a lost twin at some point, or become convinced you have one? And once that idea is out there, how can you not scratch that itch if you are Garth and Ayla? Not only is it a sibling, but it may be the key to making Mekt "well" again. I know some are tired of the Ranzz family, but I like it. Perpetually problematic sibling relationships are very true to life and make for good drama.

The Lanothian thing makes me wonder what Earth/U.P colonization policies are. For some reason I thought they have a Prime Directive type policy. In the 30/31st century do they colonize inhabited planets?

I imagine the Earth colony on Titan pre-dates the UP by quite a bit. The old stand-by of "subculture fleeing turmoil/persecution" would probably fit the founders of the human Titan colony pretty well.

As a child, it would've been completely understandable if Mekt had invented an imaginary twin, especially given the stigma that was associated with not having one. He's been shown to be pretty off in the head, so that delusion could certainly follow him onto adulthood and become unhealthy.

What if at some point Mekt had Tharok (or somebody) clone him to give his ethereal twin solid form? Or what if instead someone else (an enemy of Mekt's) did that in order to torment Mekt?

As far as I'm concerned, Paul put the Lanothian thing to rest with that one line. Out of everything I'd like to see Paul revisit at some point, more Lanothian info is at the very bottom.

That's always been my 'fanon' for the Titanians. In various sci-fi/fantasy media, telepathic sub-communities have rarely been welcomed with open arms by the non-telepathic majority, so it would make total sense for a group of humans developing some burgeoning telepathic awareness to take the first chance they've got to get away from the people who would happily kill to keep their secrets locked within their own skulls, and to whom the very existence of people who can read minds is pants-wettingly threatening.

Tharok being the sort of man who whips up clones of himself on occasion, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he cloned Mekt for his own purposes (say, as an infinite power source for some big death-machine he was building), and if Mekt found out about it and regards the clone as his 'long-lost twin.'

Tharok's clone-happy self might also be used to quickly 'explain' the presence of Validus in Lo3W. Validus is a massive engine of destruction, pretty much irreplaceable, and firmly under Tharok's control. Saving some cells for later to clone a replacement guarantees that no matter what happens to Validus, this 'weapon' never leaves Tharok's arsenal. The Lo3W Validus could simply have been the latest version (and, being a clone, might not be as powerful as the original, explaining why it didn't exactly dominate the combat).

If the death of Sarya is also in-continuity, her appearance could be similarly explained.

Clones! They're all clones!

Even Lightning Saga Karate Kid was a clone, created by Tharok in an attempt to use as an assassin to kill Jeckie (who he was pissed at for killing Sarya, because Tharok kinda liked her, even if she held him in contempt), but he broke his brainwashing and joined the Legion, only to find out that Tharok had set a self-destruct sequence into his genes, so that he was going to die again fairly soon anyway, and while Brainiac Five might have been able to correct that, he knew he was a clone, created as an assassin, and that his continued existence wasn't exactly thrilling the widow of the man he was cloned from, so he opted for no 'extraordinary measures' and just rode out the remainder of his existence without complaint.

Yes, there's *nothing* that can't be explained by clones!

I like that solution! It actually ties into alot of New Age stuff I have read in the past. Alot of people claim to have telepathic abilities (and alot of these people believe in aliens), it makes sense they would want to go off planet.

Normally, I don't favor cloning being used extensively in a story (especially after getting bitten HARD by the awful Clone Saga in Spider-man titles many years ago), but some of those ideas are pretty solid. I personally like my idea about Mekt's "twin" best, but it could explain those other seeming inconsistencies as well. It would certainly give Tharok more to do than he ever has in the past!

Personally, I hope the explanation for Val particularly is a little more artful if it ever gets told. For one possibility he could've been the Threeboot version who disappeared in a loose plot thread from that era. The possibility that it somehow actually was our Val is also intriguing if done right.

Cheif, you may have inadvertently stumbled on a reason for some of the emotion in behind previous discussions. In your last post you refer to the Threeboot version of Val, then refer to a presumed "our" version of Val.

So, Threeboot wasn't "our" Legion? Presumably that means that reboot wasn't either. But original was? And, approximate is?

Clones can work in some situations. I would rather see Emerald Empress explained as legacy character. Her death was done so well. It shouldn't be undone.

Yeah, that was a bit of a slip! In Val's case I DO think of the Val who died in V3, issue 4 as the only Karate Kid I ever really cared about. However, there are versions of these characters from some of the other continuities that I prefer to the original, such as Reboot Lyle and Lu and 5YL's Jo to name a few. (We had an interesting "Survivor" competition based on preferences between different versions a while back.) So I'm not automatically biased toward the original/approximation versions.

But it was more referring to how most here seem to prefer the original continuity in any case. The Reboot and Threeboot supporters are a fairly silent minority by and large. I'd say the second most vocal group of supporters are the 5YL supporters. So "our" was as much a reflection of the board's apparent bias as it was of my bias toward that version of Val Armorr.

In any case I'm very well aware of how emotionally invested our particular niche of comics fans are in what they feel is the 'correct' way to tell a Legion story. Ten years or so of posting and interacting on the 'net about the Legion has made that pretty clear for me.

I've never shared Giffen's pathological hatred of Original Recipe Karate Kid, but he was never a favorite of mine, either. I much prefer the Threeboot version when Waid was still writing. The cartoon take had a lot of potential, or would have-- if the people producing the show hadn't had all the racial sensitivity of the proverbial bull in a china shop.

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Chief Taylor:

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... The Reboot and Threeboot supporters are a fairly silent minority by and large...

I can't really talk about them much because my exposure is so limited. But my feelings about the parts that I have read are generally positive. Sure, there are flaws, but what story out there doesn't have a few of those?

I have barely read any of the Reboot. I got into Legion the same year Threeboot began (I was 3 years old when the Reboot began). I read a lot of my Dad's 80's comics so I knew the Pre-Crisis stuff. However, I did like the relevence the Threeboot had.

We weren't silent when those versions were being published. There was plenty of energetic discussion on this and other boards during the DNA run (I wasn't part of Internet fandom prior to that era) and during the early 3boot as well -- and considerable furor when they were cancelled.

Maybe we're a minority on *this* board, but my impression is that the post-0 Hour Legion (a designation I prefer too "Reboot" or Earth-247) is pretty popular overall with Legion fandom, whose numbers include the creators of the current "Approximate" Legion. Geoff Johns is a big fan, and Paul Levitz was a public supporter of the pre-DNA "Archies" as well as the early 3boot. XS, Gates, supporting characters such as Aven, and the persistence of quite a number of reboot and 3boot characterizations and tropes (xenophobia, dumb Ultra Boy) are not mere accident, methinks.

There are good ideas/concepts in all the iterations of the Legion. There are also bad times in all as well. I loved the beginning of the reboot Legion (through the triangle storyline), and the DnA stuff. The middle portion of that Reboot Legion was really boring overall to me, even if there were some decent stories mingled in.

I would think that there would be conversations happening about whatever Legion is currently being published at the moment. This is a board primarily aimed at Legion readers after all.

I personally loved the 5Y:L stuff, and wisjed Geoff had not chickened out and continued on from where they left off. He's rolled convoluted continuity together before...but in the case of the Legion he just tried to ignore way too much of what happened...at least to me.

I hold original and Earth 247 Legions in equally high esteem. I guess I'd favor original, but not by all that much. I'd be just as happy to read continuing adventures of either, really.

The jury's still out on how much current LSH holds up as a continuation of the original. It's a distinct entity on its own.

Now that we know 5YL is its own reality, as well, I'd love to see it revisited. Same for Primeverse- Projectra's story, in particular, deserved to play out.

I wouldn't mind if she 'crossed over' as a villainess. Hmmm... Evil Jeckie, Progenitor, 5YL Rokk as Time Trapper- that's a pretty good Founding Three for a Legion of Reality-Crossing Villains, right there.

In the just finished Superman saga, Jeckie was missing the second Val quite a bit.
She didn't want him to stay either, in the Lightning Saga but he did anyway.

Tribulus, in dotREBELS, is Validus without the 'brain' attached and he's controlled by Vril.
I think it's still pretty open as to who Validus actually is, which is why I'm interested in this story.

Just the fact that one of the Ranzz twins wasn't taken at birth in this boot makes the whole timeline so different that it really can't be called the 'original' Legion, imo. Retroboot fits perfectly, since it is.

I much prefer the reboot, both character wise, they actually have characters, and story wise to the original and retro boots.
I mostly couldn't stand the Primeboot, with some exceptions.

About the Earth colony settling on Titan, it would have had to have permission from the Saturn population leaders, just as the Lanothians/Lar had to have permission to settle the city there.

The Earthers would have known about the previous settlement of the bottled city and chosen to live there anyway, or as Set suggested, they wanted to get away from others. I could see the Earth telepaths going a step further and chosing to go there expressly for the chance to learn from the Lanothians.

I think I need to clarify this statement a bit, as I think it's been misconstrued:

My primary meaning here is that there isn't any real vocal clamouring (at least not here on Legion World) by the supporters of either 'boot to bring either back as there has or had been by the supporters of the pre-Zero Hour versions of the Legion (meaning either the 5YL or pre-5YL versions).You just don't see threads that often centered around canning the current version and reinstating Reboot or Threeboot. During both of those runs there was plenty of threads and posts calling either for the return of 5YL or for simply picking up where Paul Levitz left off (since many fans hate 5YL). Both post-ZH 'boots certainly have their fans, but many appear resigned to them staying in limbo since they both ultimately proved unsuccessful saleswise, judging by their relative silence on these boards.

For the record I would've been content if the Reboot had continued uninterrupted and had never been discontinued in favor of Waid/Kitson's Threeboot. I feel it was built on a pretty rock-solid foundation and had grown to love it nearly as much as the version I grew up with. Ultimately, I had come to view "End of an Era" as the end of that story and was enjoying how the Reboot was giving characters like Lyle and Lu exposure and personalities like never before. And when DnA came along and revitalized it Cockrum-style, I felt this version really had legs.

Then, all of a sudden, it just ended in favor of Threeboot. There were some neat ideas there, but it all ultimately left me cold. And just when Shooter sparked some interest in that version in me, that was gone too.

I was skeptical about the return of the "originals", but I thoroughly enjoyed the arc in Action Comics. L3W disappointed on some levels, but it was still pretty satisfying. And with Paul on the new ongoing(s), I am so far pretty satisfied. It's not perfect, but it's pretty close to what I remember of the Legion from that era. I'm just enjoying it for what it is. It's a good read, it's got the characters I remember and it's the Legion.

I dunno...maybe I'm just too easy to please?

Candle, where exactly has it said that one of the twins was never taken at birth? If you're referring to them both being present, well, Graym's brother (later called Garridan in 5YL) was restored during Levitz's run in the Baxter book. If it's been stated explicitly that Garridan was never taken, where was this said or shown?

What if one of the twins becomes Validus and the other twin is the only one who can control him? Sort of a Rick Jones/Hulk type arrangement.

^That would be kinda neat, Jim! I just hope in any case that if one of them becomes Validus that he can change back to himself.

Say...what if both of them can become Validus, either simultaneously or when the other is not?

I like it... That sounds very Gemini Plus, the twin lads from HERO ALLIANCE who could be semisuper, but only one of them at a time.

Pretty cool IF you always remain on good terms with your twin.

For the record. much of my assessment it similar to yours:

Original series (Adventure, Action, Superboy, v.1, v.2, v.3) - The classic Legion. The foundation and inspiration for all that came after. The Legion that made me a fan. Great stories, great characters, an ongoing narrative that gave us the growth of a team from a throw away concept, to a teenage super hero club, to a sleek super hero team. It evolved into one of the premier science fiction series in the history of comics. I loved the way Levitz let the characters grow and develop.

Five Years Later - A bold beautiful experiment, comics as art, my favorite Legion era until Giffen left. I felt no sadness when the series ended. It was a grand story that had been told well. Good stories are allowed to end. Longevity is not the measure of success, for me.

Reboot - A mixed bag. A solid foundation was built. Sometimes a bit too juvenile for my tastes, some really bad ideas like Sneckie and Andromeda the space nun. Loved DnA, genius work. Ultimately, there was still a lot of potential with this team. The plug was pulled too soon. There were a lot more stories left to tell.

Threeboot - Despite initial reservations because I didn't think a new reboot was needed, I warmed to the concept. I liked the characterization and ideas for the most part. Loved Kitson's designs. The pacing was horribly slow, though. Nura's death and the lack of explanation for Supergirl's appearance were frustrating. I was really enjoying Shooter's run and was insulted by the way the series came to an end. Again, the plug was pulled too soon. This series and these characters still had a lot of potential.

Current Version - I'm trying to like it, but just don't see the point of moving the concept backwards. Awkward attempts to unnecessarily reclaim something that really can't be reclaimed. I like the idea of having new adventures with a younger team, which we could have had with the reboot or threeboot teams. Calling 30 somethings boys and girls without explanation isn't working for me. Clumsy and mishandled introduction. Bottom line: I don't think going backwards is ever going to be a successful formula for moving forward.

Unlike Kent, I prefer to read comics as ongoing narratives. Comic books don't need to move in real time, but they do need to move. As such, reboots every 20 years or so are needed to refresh the palette. Many fans feel that the reboots destroyed the Legion. I see them as having kept it alive. I know many fans support the current approach. So, I'm along for the ride and hoping that my instincts are wrong. I haven't been convinced yet.

For my part, I want good character-driven stories that treat the essence of the characters with respect, and I don't give a fig which 'boot they're from. The challenge to doing this is that the Legion has a LOT of history (events) and often not so much actual characterization (which is subtle and developed over a LONG time). So it's easy to get hung up on history (this contradicts Adventure #314!) AND easy to disagree on what is essential about an individual character (is Jo a dumb jock or clever schemer?) As I wrote earlier, I worry that Paul's story here is more about fixing a piece of backstory he's attached to, rather than telling a good story about the characters. Although I have to say I've loved his presentation of Saturn Girl and of Lightning Lad & Lass so far.