Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion of Super-Heroes #3 - SPOILERS

Ugh! Reposted to avoid postbeingignoredbecauseitwaslastonpreviouspage-itis:

Long story short, Kent shares my (and others') frustration with how every issue is seemingly being dissected endlessly and methodically for continuity bloopers while the stories themselves get buried in the morass.

Case in point: issue 3 ends with a very suggestive cliffhanger on that last page, and IT HAS BARELY BEEN DISCUSSED!!! Why IS that?!?!

We shouldn't have to start multiple threads for each issue to discuss the plot and character developments because a number of active posters want to tear the continuity apart in the main thread! There's a THREAD for that, isn't there? I'm not saying there should be a complete moratorium on these discussions in the main issue threads, but can't we at LEAST primarily focus on the events of the issues themselves?!?

Comics contradict themselves ALL the time! How many different versions of Superman's continuity have popped up in the last decade ALONE after John Byrne supposedly streamlined things for good in the Man of Steel?

You can use the same justification that Geoff Johns has done most recently and chalk up a lot of the changes to the aftershocks of Infinite Crisis. This is more or less the same Legion that Levitz wrote before but it's not EXACTLY the same Legion! As I have said elsewhere, it's an approximation. Yeah, it can ruffle our feathers that certain things were apparently changed with no rhyme or reason, but if it bothers you that much, just stop buying it and stick with those treasured back issues that will never disappoint you!

Trust me, I do understand continuity frustrations quite a bit. But if it frustrated me as badly as it does many of you, I would've quit buying mainstream comics decades ago! And some of the gripes are just beyond reason...I mean do we REALLY need a caption explaining that Saturn Queen is wearing a transuit?!?! Aargh!

I'm just saying that if you weathered a reboot and a threeboot and are still a Legion fan, then what's with a few inconsistencies when DC tries to finally give us something approximating what you want? Chances are, if any of us continuity nuts took over writing the Legion, we'd mess up some ourselves--or if we didn't, the stories might end up being so bogged down with exposition and correctness that they'd forget to be entertaining!

Let's accept that the Legion is neither an easy book to write nor to make entertaining in the bargain. Few comics in history can compare to it in regards to its complex continuity and its large cast. Lots of creators have gone on record to say it would be a book they's never consider tackling. You certainly have to have thick skin to put up with us fans! Hell, we obviously sometimes have trouble putting up with each other!

So bitch all you want to, Legion fans--it's what we do! But can't we spend a little more time discussing what actually happens in the issues in the threads devoted to them and less on annotating continuity gaffes panel-by-panel? Can we devote the bulk of those discussions to a separate thread?

So...what the hell's up with the Darkseid statue on Avalon, anyway?

[snip]

Chief Taylor:

Quote

...Trust me, I do understand continuity frustrations quite a bit. But if it frustrated me as badly as it does many of you, I would've quit buying mainstream comics decades ago! And some of the gripes are just beyond reason...I mean do we REALLY need a caption explaining that Saturn Queen is wearing a transuit?!?! Aargh!...

FWIW, I figured that villains must make bootlegged copies of heroes' tech all the time, given how often they capture heroes. I mean, if you can bootleg movies and cds in the present day...



That's as much thought as I'd give to SQ being in space and able to breathe, if I'd thought about it much at all.

I get the frustration but don't see a solution. We've pretty much always discussed continuity issues with every version of the Legion. And pretty much on an issue by issue basis. In short, we've never had restrictions on viewing the series as an ongoing narrative. Suddenly with this version, there seems to be a movement against viewing the series from that perspective. Which seems ironic, to me, because one of the purposes of introducing this version was to bring back the feel that some people felt was missing from the reboot and 3boot. I didn't sit down one day and decide to read comics, the DC universe, or the Legion as an ongoing narrative. It's something I just did naturally as a kid, and have continued to do to this day. Suddenly, it feels like I'm being told that I've been reading comics and the Legion "the wrong way" for over 35 years. Really? Not buying it.

Okay, let's talk about the Darkseid reveal at the end of issue #3.
The implication seems to be that this a follow up to Great Darkness. But wait, were not allowed to ask if Great Darkness is in continuity. Wasn't Supergirl in that story? Shh. Just accept it and move on. Didn't Final Crisis change the nature of Darkseid? How is this going to work? Don't ask here. We have a separate thread for that. That approach doesn't feel very natural to me.

^It's not "wrong" to read the Legion this way, Jerry, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the transition between Before and Now to be seamless. I mean, it's been two decades since LSH Vol. 3 #63 was published. Continuity was being run thru the wringer before that point...since then, even moreso. Superboy/Kal-El was out of continuity for a looong time, and now he's back. There were different versions of Supergirl. Several different versions of the Legion. SO many factors beyond those, including what the Superman titles recently did with the Legion homeworld mythos. It just ain't gonna match up all that well.

Unfortunately, there's no other perfect solution, other than to divorce the Legion from the DCU proper and set it on its own parallel world where the tenets of the Silver Age weren't wiped out by Crisis. Even then, you'd have a hard time marrying everything else to what happened in the latter half of Volume Three. There's just no way.

Yep, it would be nice if Paul hadn't forgotten that Imra wasn't an orphan and hadn't gotten some other details wrong. But for the most part, he's doing the best he can to approximate what we lost many years ago. "Approximate" is the key word and one that I believe you approved of a while back when I coined it, IIRC.

Who knows? Given a long enough run, maybe Paul will do the best he can to tie up all those loose ends and make them work, but I doubt anything he or anyone else could do would really satisfy even half of us.

For the most part, these characters seem enough like the ones I remember and love to overlook the flaws. Hell, many of them I never even notice until I read them being pointed out on these threads!

Anyhow, I accept that this Legion isn't exactly the one I grew up with, yet I still accept it. Does that make me less of a fan somehow than those who can't get past the inconsistencies? Again, I don't damn anyone who can't get past them, but I just don't see the point of driving them into the ground.

Would it really have helped if DC had billed this Legion as "the nearest approximation to the original Legion you're ever gonna get" instead of "the return of the original Legion"? Somehow, I doubt it. But it is the truth, and that's been readily apparent since Karate Kid and Sensor Girl appeared in the Lightning Saga together, hasn't it?

I'm totally down with accepting this as an approximate Legion while questioning how the pieces fit. I don't think they are mutually exclusive exercises. Questioning specifics and expecting perfection are different things.

DC made a decision to take my money for ten plus issues of Shooter's run, not finish the story, contradict it in L3W, and try to appease me with a promise of the return of the original Legion. That set the bar pretty high for me. I'll own my bitterness. I can work through it. I'm totally giving the new series a chance and enjoying quite a bit of it. I won't, however, accept that I'm not allowed view comics as an ongoing narrative because that view doesn't quite fit with the way this series is being presented.

Besides, I don't think that is what DC or Levitz is expecting from me. In all his comments and interviews, Levitz seems totally cool with fans questioning the specifics. The resistance seems to be coming from other fans who really support the current approach. I want to see those fans support these books and be vocal as hell in their support. I don't want to see that support extend to the point of "shutting down" those who question how it all fits.

I'll tell you what would've helped. DC could have simply answered all of the major continuity questions right off the bat. Published a new "Secrets of the Legion" leading into the new seies to establish the new definitive continuity of the team, and go from there. Instead they've been stringing us along since this version first appeared with various hints about things may or may not be different than the original. It's DC's fault that we don't really know what the deal is with Supergirl now, so that we've got to try to piece it together from various bits of scattered hints they throw us, until hopefully they give us an answer in the Supergirl Annual.

The really frustrating part is that I have my doubts as to whether anyone at DC has thought these things through. It's a lot like the situation post-Crisis, when they started rebooting certain titles, but didn't really think about the consequences that, say, rebooting Wonder Woman would have for the Teen Titans or JLA, and then having to patch up those titles to conform them to the new WW story. And so they've just thrown the "original" Legion back into continuity, but it doesn't seem like anyone's bothered to figure out how the square peg is supposed to fit into the round hole. There's a kind of sloppiness to the whole enterprise which is disconcerting.

It certainly didn't help that a certain segment of Legion fandom hit us over the head with the whole "OMG! Finally the real one true Legion is back and we can scrap all those imposter Legions that they been publshing for the past twenty years 'cos they all sucked because they weren't the one true Legion and you guys better buy this book because DC has finally given us what we want by giving us Superboy back and we can ignore the horrible Giffen era and all his awful retcons and the stupid reboot and threeboot Legions!" argument when this team first appeared.

Again, not trying to "shut down" any of this. Just trying to add some perspective on things. I'm totally fine with nitpicking and even agree with it to an extent. It just seems the nitpicking dominates all the other criticisms and reactions to the point of distraction at times. I just want a balance, just as Kent and others do.

Maybe my suggestion to segregate these types of criticisms went too far, but it just goes to show how frustrating it can be, especially when I know that it's likely to get worse as the "approximateness" of this Legion (as opposed to its authenticity) becomes more and more apparent. I doubt it will get any better, and there's nothing we can do to cause it to improve. It's out of our hands.

I mean, that last page is a perfect example. It's been discussed so little and the posts referencing it buried under all the nitpicking posts, even though it's clearly an element that provides one of those connecting points or touchstones to what happened in the past to potentially see how much that element has changed or stayed the same. It's inexplicably buried under the minutiae about saturn Queen's transuit, Tyroc's powers working in space and other nitpicky details. Why is that?!?! Are my priorities misplaced?!?!

That's my objection. It's all about balance. If we're constantly seeking out the Legion equivalent of Marvel's old No-Prize and ignoring the biggest plot point in the entire issue pretty much entirely in the process, I think that's kind of a problem. Don't you?

(Btw, Jerry...though this has evolved into a back-and-forth debate between me and you, I ironically never really had you in mind at all among those in the "drive it into the ground" bunch. )

Oh, yeah. DC's been guilty of this kind of shit repeatedly the past three decades without a doubt. I guess, I'm just so used to it that I've learned to roll with the punches in order to continue enjoying characters I've grown up with. Part of me has felt many times that I should just stop shelling out my hard-earned money to DC. But I'm a glutton for punishment, and for the most part, there's been enough good stuff to keep me coming back for more.

I've been buying DC's Legion product consistently since mid-Volume 3 without any gaps, so that should illustrate my devotion, stubbornness and flexibility as a Legion fan. I can't really explain why, except to say that each permutation was good enough and felt enough like a Legion story to keep my interest. I certainly couldn't blame anyone for feeling otherwise, though.

I honestly have no clue why anyone would've ever had that attitude when the "original Legion" was brought back. Anyone, even the most naive fan, could see from the start that this wasn't quite the original version from the moment the Lightning Saga unfolded.

(btw, Edie...have you read beyond issue 1? I don't recall any posts by you referencing having read beyond that issue. )

Is that the Mark Farmer/Alan Davis 'Superboy's Legion' that you're refering to?

Oh, yes, I loved that version!
(But, apparently, I'm not remembering all of it!)

Yes, that WAS to die for!

It took me the longest time to figure out who that was!
Actually, I DIDN'T figure it out, someone told us here.
sigh

I kept thinking it was Mekt's brother!
is right!

Edit:
And somehow if it's Darkseid stealing BOTH of the boys AND turning one of them into Validus, the idea seems much more horrible than taking the one newborn and turning him into the poor monster.
For some reason this new version and departure from the old story feels horrible to me.

I should never have grown up, had kids, and worked with people with challenges and school kids.
It all just colors my reactions now.

You really can't go back, at least maybe, not all of the way.

The reboot was such a relief to me.
I guess I love fresh starts.
sigh

Chief, the frustration with the frustration is turning into some self-annhilatory mobius strip of doom, I think.

There have been multiple posts about non-continuity issues. If that level of discourse is what you want to focus on, start responding to those and spinning the conversation in that direction. Most of us will happily tag along (since I know I made some non-continuity comments myself, even *praising* Paul for so beautifully dealing with the Lanothian stuff, and introducing the compelling notion that Saturn Queen grew up among Buddhists, even if her actions suggest that she's not exactly a shining exemplar of the faith of her fathers in action...).

Less talk about stuff you don't want to see so much talk about, and more talk about stuff you *do* want to talk about, would seem to be the most productive course of action here.

How about that Avalon? Have we ever heard of this world before? It's new to me, at least.

Is it entirely run by Darkseid-worshippers, or is this just Ol-Vir's little banana republic? I would love for this to be a red herring, and for Darkseid himself to have nothing to do with this particular event, for Paul to be tantalizing us, only to reveal that he's not going right back to the most obvious thing he could do (since he's practically a legend for the Great Darkness Saga, at least among this fandom), but take a surprise turn in another direction.

I'm all for more discussion about non-continuity matters.

What I'm not all for is multiple posts suggesting that other peoples topics of interest are annoying to you and that we need to talk about something else.

Subtly manipulate us, instead. We'll fall for it every time.

The Roadrunner is the ultimate continuity nightmare.

The planet AVALON has appeared at least once before that I can recall...

"Lord Romdur's Castle", the story where Star Boy defeats Mordru, drawn by Ditko.

^ Wasn't it also that medieval world where Ontir (or someone who looked like him) and some other Darkseid followers (or something) (I am really not remembering this story well ) tried to summon him or something. I think it was in that Annual that followed up on what happened to Validus and the Ranzz twins. With Curt Swan on art. That last bit I'm sure of*.


* Unless I'm wrong.

I'm really keeping my fingers crossed that Darkseid himself is not directly involved. I'm open to Paul revisiting him directly at some point, but I'm really rooting for the red herring here.

MLLASH's post makes me wonder if this may be a Darkseid cult lead by a possibly powerless Mordru (wasn't he still powerless in V3?) whose firsthand experience with the dark lord twisted his mind. That would be interesting to me. Guess we'll know more in less than a week!

I hope you understand, Set, that I've tried pretty hard these past few posts to present a balanced, reasonable argument about my point. Yes, they have had an agenda, but I think my view has shown respect for "the other side".

Yeah, I believe Levitz used the planet several times.

For those keeping track of such things, he mentioned a while back that he had found the perfect world for this storyline that tied back to his previous run. I assume Avalon was what he was talking about.

From what I can gather, that "Lord Romdur's castle" story as Avalon's only appearance pre-Crisis until Darkseid went there to free Mordru and steal his powers. I haven't found anything complete on it, though.

Going from memory, Avalon also appeared in the 1984 Annual in which Graym was born and Garridan became Validus. In the same issue, Shady and Grev were teleported to Avalon by some of Mordru's followers in the hope of using their mystical darkness powers to release Mordru.

Theory time: Darkseid has supplanted the recently deceased Mordru as the idol of Avalon. His followers kidnapped his only surviving "creature" (Garridan, formerly Validus) in the hope of using him to summon the missing god. Graym just went along for the ride -- they couldn't tell one boy from the other from a distance.

Extended theory: Garridan/Validus kicks some Avalonian butt and earns a place in the Legion Academy.

Or something like that.

^Hmmm. It would be interesting if Garridan could transform back and forth into Validus. I'd much prefer that rather than he just be turned into Validus. I doubt Garridan could control himself in that form. So even if he's too young to go into the Academy as far as being a Legionnaire any time soon, going there would be beneficial to helping him control Validus.

(Continuity-Porn Corner: It would be nice if Paul somehow explained how Validus could have appeared in L3W in the process of telling this story.)

I've suggested before that Missing Mekt Twin = L3W Validus.

Maybe they want to make more?

Interesting theory! However, missing Mekt twin would theoretically have neither electrical powers (since he wasn't with the others on Korbal) nor telepathy, which both of the Garridan and Graym would, at least latently. Of course, MMT would theoretically have the same gene (or whatever) that made the other Ranzzes capable of getting the lightning powers, at least.

He did sorta. He said L3W wasn't necessarily in continuity except for the parts he chose to use.

Mekt's twin - maybe he/she is a Darkseid followers.

I'm not crazy about Paul being selective about which of the more recent story elements he wants to use. It may seem hypocritical to what I've been preaching here, but this approximation of the original Legion should at least be consistent with itself, if that makes any sense. An easy explanation for that Validus would be that he was brought from another time period. With the Time Trapper prominent in the story, it's plausible. (Same with Sarya and Tharok if we want to preserve as much of V3 as possible.)

That would tie some seemingly disparate plot elements together quite nicely! I hope Paul thought of it!