Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion Of Super Heroes #1

Probably, this was just a visual shorthand/sight-pun to illustrate the Phantom Girl ID box.

I think it'd be great if PG, in particular, and other Legionnaires, in general, did more to craft a sense of persona in their heroic guises. I think that might be the one thing missing from the LSH as superhero comic. On the other hand, their openness and the innocence behind it *has* been a differentiating trait for the comic.

Still, I think a handful of Legionnaires oughtta create images that make villains or the general public go 'whoa' whenever they appear... something more than just the celebrity-love or 'save me' pleas we normally see.

Tinya, Tas and Jacques could rock a pulpy Shadow Knows/Batman striking fear in the hearts of a cowardly lot kind of aura.

I guess it would be sort of anti-sci-fi... could the two be balanced effectively?

But the hall of dead heroes is clearly presented as a solemn, august sanctuary. Otherwise, why not show the statues in relaxed, smiling poses?

Not trying to make a big deal out of this or anything. Just a passing impression.

Jim, you make a good point, but so do cleome and rhino. People of different cultures venerate the dead differently, so Tinya might not have thought anything of it.

(And the reason it's a solemn sanctuary might have more to do with North American-earth traditions, where the Legion is based, than anything else.)

The more I think about it, I would love to believe there is something symbolic about that image. After all, any Legionnaire could have told Brainy he was muttering to himself, and he could have been anywhere besides the hall of the dead. I would love to believe there's more to it; alas, I fear that Mystery Lad is probably right: It was just a shorthand way of introducing Tinya and what she can do.

Again, not trying to make a big deal, but I'm reminded of the grove on Winath in TMK, where Garth had erected the statues of the dead from Legion HQ. Ayla and Vi approached them with reverent whispers. Totally different than Tinya's flippant attitude shown here. Different interpretations by different creators, but I like the reverent attitude better.

I'd like to see more 'personas' too.

We HAVE seen a few over the years, Sensor Girl, for one.
She was MUCH more effective, especially in her totally blank faced costume (my fav for her).
The enemy didn't know what to expect and that was a good thing, for her effectiveness and for her appeal.

Tasmia, as Umbra, was just going into something like that with her shadow ancesters joining her aura on what appeared to be a permanent basis.

I could see her costume changing for more shock value and stealth.
Especially if the shadows whispered!


That's part of the problem with wearing a bicini, imo.

I could see Lydda, Cham and Yera added to that list.
Lydda, who has her powers in shadow and even indoors, should wear a costume that provides her body with the needed lack of light, including shadowing her face and perhaps building on her owl symbol.

Brin, too.
And Jan.

Codenames that are less revealing of powers might work, as well.
That's one of the reasons I liked and advocated for updated names.
The Levitz Baxter and beyond Legion was very different and fought a very different caliber of foe than the Adventure Legion did.

And it's one of the reasons I dislike the current retrolegion having costumes from so many different eras.
THIS Legion needs their own look for their own time.
I think.

Or she never liked Karate Kid.

(That's a joke, people.)

I'm going with the different creative team approach theory rather than the scene meaning to say anything about Tinya. It would be interesting to see how a similar scene would play out on Shanghalla, though.

Yeah, I doubt it 'meant' anything.

Heck, we're still not clear if the writer 'meant anything' by having Imra, in fear for her children's lives, stop to save at least four people en route (and then, failing to save her kids, promptly go on to evacuate an entire school full of children), proving herself again and again an amazing person, an amazing *hero,* while Brainy, fretting about losing some equipment, and arguing with himself about *stuff he'd forgotten* (12th level intellects lacking photographic memories, apparently) walked at a slow deliberate pace past people being crushed, proving himself to be something far, far less than Imra...

If I wanted an in-story reason, perhaps;

1) Tinya, by Earth standards, already kind of a living ghost person, doesn't see death quite as gloomily (or take it as seriously) as others. Since she, even more than Mon-El or Superboy or Ultra Boy, is truly 'invulnerable' to the forces of the material world, and is a living example of someone whose existence is not dependent upon physical or corporeal existence, she absolutely believes in higher planes and spiritual continuance, and regards the deaths of flesh-and-blood teammates with the same sort of regrets we feel for friends and family members who move far away and who we won't see again, for a while.

[The recent resurrection (and re-death) of Karate Kid might only enhance that perception.]

2) Tinya hangs out in that room, not out of disrespect, but because Bgtzlns innately respect the non-corporeal more than the physical. While she's not a medium or anything, she still feels the presence of the lost Legionnaires in the presence of these memorials to them, and has gotten, in the eyes of some, perhaps overly comfortable / familiar with them, even speaking to them as if they were present.

These dead Legionnaires, like her, are now creatures of spirit, and stand a world apart from the rest of the Legion. She considers her friendship with them intact, even if they cannot reply to her.

3) While phasing, the material world appears translucent and 'far away' to her, and, sometimes she'll sheepishly admit, 'it all looks the same.' She was so busy looking at Brainy, that she didn't even notice what she was phasing through, since it was just 'stuff in her way.'

Afterwards, she'll notice that she walked through the men's bathroom, because of all the shouting. Oops. She was on her way to the gym, and this was the quickest way!

I like this idea. To resurrect a (seemingly) dead horse from another thread, this ties into religious/spiritual beliefs. Many spiritual traditions offer similar views about the departed.

Riiight.

Hmm... if you go with the old school explanation of Tinya's power, she doesn't really pass through things as go around them, so from her point of view what she's doing with the statue is no different than Brainy passing beside it.

As I seem to recall, Levitz has always scripted Tinya as having a few character deficits. Under his pen, Tinya tends to be a bit catty and cliquish at times, so I'm not at all suprised that we can add "irreverent" to the list. Not that this is a bad thing, mind you, because as others have observed, well-rounded characters are more interesting ones. It will be inteeresting to see, therefore, if he continues this past characterization trend with Tasmia as well.

On other hand, I was disturbed by the fact that Rokk barged into Science Police H.Q. to yell at GiGi and even misuse his power in a fit of pique. For one thing, I think that this is an appaulling lapse for a man of his maturity and experience. Secondly, I suppose that I've come to prefer the way that he's been depicted for some time now: as a rational and committed team leader who's good at working with others.

[snip]

Well, there's nothing inherently "anti-sci-fi" about it, as you can find utopias and dystopias and every gradation in between under the banner of "sci-fi."

I still prefer masked heroes as the exception rather than the rule. I'd rather see the book maintain some distinctive character rather than end up like every other hero book out there.

Is there a difference between having a persona and having a secret identity? As I read Mystery Lad's post, he is merely suggesting that some Legionnaires behave differently in public than they do in private. For example, Tinya could use her phantom-like powers to "strike terror" into the hearts of criminals, but, when off duty, she's all sweetness and kindness (okay, sweetness and cattiness).

It's a worthy idea, but, with so many Legionnaires to keep track of, it might confuse the reader (or force the writer to rely on heavy exposition) if the Legionnaires started exhibiting inconsistent personality traits.

Oh, okay.

I guess I've always just assumed that some characters have better "company manners" than others. Never really thought of it as something to be specifically focused on before, though.

Now that I think about it, though, cartoon-'verse Tinya's finest hour (or one of them) was when she played diplomat on Sorcerer's World; showing skills quite apart from her regular persona. It actually made her my favorite of all the versions I've seen.

I liked diplomat Tinya, too.

This reminds me of the discussion over Robin in my Titans Retro Review thread . Was Dick Grayson the pun-happy kid sidekick of Batman or the serious leader of the Teen Titans? There's no reason he couldn't be both. He just exhibited different sides of his personality depending on who he was associating with and what his role required of him.

Of course, this shift in persona might work better in different books than in the same book.

I like some of your ideas, Set, but even though her name is Phantom Girl, she's never been portrayed as being ghostly or spiritual or in tune with the dead or anything, except for when she was dead in the reboot briefly. She's just a red blooded girl who can walk through stuff. Would love to see some of your ideas explored though.

Well, Garth and Dirk weren't there to be out-of-character hotheads, so Rokk had to be the out-of-character hothead for that scene.

I mean, someone has to irrationally snap (for the wrong reasons, at the wrong person), 'cause otherwise we'd have four whole pages of grown-up superheroes acting like grown-up superheroes, and that's just crazytalk!

From my perspective if our fave characters never, ever acted out of character occasionally because of circumstances, then why bother to read about them? If it's as simple as "if Cos encounters x situation, then he'll ALWAYS react with y!" The Legion's been through a LOT during their time off-camera, and this jackass Earth Man has been behind a good chunk of it. I think Cos flying off the handle here can easily be justified.

Do you guys ALWAYS react the same way in certain situations? Are there some that are sever enough that might cause you to react differently? Of COURSE there are! Cut Cos (and Paul) some slack! If every Legion (or comic book) story had every single character reacting exactly as I feel they would every single time, I probably wouldn't be much of a fan.

I mean, wasn't Nura being an effective leader a bit of a surprise with what had sometimes been known as a flighty character? I wouldn't say there was NOTHING in her history that could support it, but it was certainly not her dominant portrayal.

What about Jeckie killing Nemesis Kid? Was there all that much in her history that would suggest she'd have a vengeful side? No, not really.

If these characters had acted consistently "in-character", we wouldn't have had some of our greatest Legion moments! Cos's situation was pretty light in comparison, but those examples hold up. At least it shows Cos has his limits and still feels passionately about some things. Good for Cos!

I'm not endorsing EVERY out-of-character thing any creator has ever done. Geoff Johns, for example, had to clean up a royal injustice with Hal Jordan. But the occasional, justifiable lapse in character is one of the things that keeps me reading comics!

(moved to correct thread)

This is issue 1. If the characters are *already* acting out of character, how is a new reader supposed to have any idea what sort of person they *normally* are? It becomes the new default personality, to the new reader, and they will begin to wonder what's 'wrong' with Cos or Garth or Dirk if they stop acting like hotheads (or if Polar Boy goes back to having a stick up his bum).

It's not a question of 'always.' It's a question of 'already?' If you meet an alien and it's got two tentacles, and sixteen issues later you find out that the reason everyone has been acting so strange around him is because he's from a race that normally has three tentacles and he lost one of his tentacles in some great heroic sacrifice, then you've spent sixteen issues completely misunderstanding the character, through no fault of your own, because this new character was introduced with a radical change that you weren't informed was a radical change. The reader, innocently assumed that alien was *supposed* to have two tentacles, and missed the entire point of this presentation being an exceptional event, or something that should concern them and make them wonder 'why is Garth acting so weird?' or 'why does Urglespexor only have two tentacles?'

Does Imra ever say, 'Oh, it's not like Garth to freak out all the time, with the shouting and the anger and the abandoning me with the kids?'

Does Jo say, 'Whoa, Cos, you're supposed to be the level-headed one, calm down, I'm the guy with the short fuse!'

This is issue one. To someone, these are new(ish) characters. They are not being well served. To others, these are long-term established 'old friends,' and *we* are not being well-served by seeing a bunch of people who have the same names, but are acting like total strangers. If Paul isn't writing the characters for new readers (who could use a level playing field to meet these new guys *before* they start acting out-of-character, so that they have a baseline to recognize the difference) *or* old readers (who have been through 20 years of dashed hopes, and would maybe like to see their old friends *before* they start transitioning / developing / emotionally regressing to tantrum prone infants), who exactly is he writing this for?

It was easier for me to read the Threeboot, because Waid didn't say 'this is the same Legion you remember' and then write the characters completely different anyway.


Anywho, it's also a comic book. Whether or not *I* act out of character, or that lady you see in the Home Depot wearing a feather boa makes a lick of sense, it doesn't matter, because no one is 'writing' me. The old adage goes, 'Truth will always be stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense.'

It's supposed to be a story, and therefore it's supposed to be pre-written and have a narrative and a theme and a plot and some structure.

Darn tootin', as a writer, I'm gonna hold the characters in a fictional story to higher standards of consistent behavior and characterization than I would the dude at Subway who is really grumpy some days and really friendly other days.

Rob Liefield, to invoke the devil by speaking his name, was famous for this kind of 'writing,' where if he had a line in mind, then whatever character was in the scene would say that line. Didn't matter if it was Cable, or Deadshot, or Domino, or Boom-Boom, they would say that line, because, darn it, Rob wanted that line said. If you blacked out the pictures, it became increasingly difficult to tell who was saying what, because none of the characters had their own distinctive voice.

I'm hoping that there is some sort of story behind why Garth has been angry, shouting Intemperate Lad since the Lightning Saga, and why Rokk has been generally arguing with / shouting at Garth (or, now, random other people), and why Imra has looked so frazzled and worn out (dealing with those two for the last decade, I guess!) and that this isn't just 'the new characterization.' Garth has been angry throughout Lightnign Saga, Lo3W and is not implied to still be angry by Imra (and Adventure is going back in time and showing us a scene of angry teenaged Garth as well, making these characterizations, like Imra's 'crush' on Superboy, apparently retroactive, and not some completely understandable signs of stress or whatever).

And that's what I don't like the appearance of, these characterizations becoming canonized as 'the way they always were, Garth was always a raging hothead!' through the use of Adventure.

Suddenly, hothead Garth is no longer plot-related or an inconsistency, it's just 'the way he always was.'

That's not character development or growth (or regression, in this instance), that's just the storyteller stepping out of the book and saying, 'Oh, Garth was always like that, you are misremembering him.'

Expanded like that, Set, I can better see the point you were trying to make, but your previous post responding to Mediocre Boy, taken in and of itself, seemed pretty sweeping and caused me to react with the above post.

I can't really speak for the new reader. I mean someone's first Legion comic may have been that issue of Superboy & the LSH where Cos slapped Ayla! To me, that's much crappier characterization of him than anything he did in LSH #1.

When I was still getting my feet wet as a Legion fan, the first Cos-centric story I ever read was the issue when Cos's family is firebombed, and he goes out hell-bent to stop those responsible. Not exactly his M.O., but I understood this was an exceptionally trying time for him. It certainly wasn't random like a pimp-slap on Ayla!

I, however, assume the percentage of truly new readers to the property is relatively low. Most, I'd wager, are like many of us and are longtime readers, and many others may have followed them thru the Super-titles, perhaps going as far back as the big arc in Action Comics. If they (or we) read the arc which introduced Earth Man and all that milieu, it's understandable why Legionnaires would be edgy after all they went through. To me, this would especially apply to THE 'company man' of the LSH, Cos. To be honest, it kinda thrilled me!

As for Garth and other inconsistencies, some of this boils down to Paul being the writer. If this was Johns or anyone else, we'd probably give them a pass. But I understand that Paul's playing the hand he was dealt. I also understand and believe that if Paul can find a way to explain or marry the inconsistencies without sacrificing a good story in the process, he'll do it. At this point Paul is trying to be consistent with what Geoff has set up, moreso than with where he left off in the '80s. If he wasn't doing that, then damnit, we'd complain about that too! That's how we Legion fans roll, dontchaknow?

He's got two issues out so far, one of LSH and one of Adventure. Give Paul a chance to work his wiles and, very importantly, to cast some of the rust off before we claim he's writing evil Durlan imposters disguised as the Legionnaires we all fell in love with. Certainly, he's got a bigger cast to juggle than most writers in comics ever have to worry about!

I think the worst character derailment at the moment is Brainiac 5. He's never been like this except right before he was shown to be insane, and most people forget this, but the insanity was caused by Stargrave--he doesn't naturally tend to go insane on his own. He's also been shown as a lot more able to deal with people and with human emotions--he's being written in a very exaggerated way here.

That's one of my favorite appearances by him too, and was made more powerful because it *was* something new and exciting. If he'd *always* been shown as snappy and prone to violent displays, I don't think it would have been as effective.

Same thing with Projectra snapping Nemesis Kid's neck. If Tasmia snapped the neck of someone threatening Talokk VIII, I'd be like, 'I can see that.' But from Jeckie, it was all the more powerful (to me, anyway) because Jeckie's not a neck-snappin' fool.

The development of Violet from shy to angry, post kidnapping, was an expanded bit of character development with resonance to the story that is *still* be mentioned as recently as Legion of Three Worlds, with the talk of her and Yera being at odds at the UP council meeting.

So, I'm all for 'out of character' moments, so long as they flow from the story. Some of the most powerful Legion moments are when someone does something unexpected, but if all the characters *ever* do is act out of character, that powerful storytelling tool, which we saw with Cos and Jeckie and Vi, is robbed of any potency.

Without a baseline for comparison, without seeing Rokk or Garth or Dirk as being something *other* than hotheads, the 'highs' and 'lows' are meaningless, and all I'm seeing is three grown up men acting petulant.

Anywho, short short version;

Everyone's too angry. We need some laid-back characters to even out the flow and cut back on the negativity! It's hard to *like* these people.

But hasn't the whole reason for this behavior been set up with the "Superman & the LSH" arc? Clearly, they were outcasts for a time in favor of, essentially, thugs and a racist (or more exactly xenophobic, but we know what the metaphor was about) agenda that flew in the face of everything they ever stood for. And Paul has chosen to follow a more realistic storytelling path in which the "reset button" hasn't exactly been pushed and tensions remain high. Add in that Earth is forcing them to accept the worst of those they fought into their ranks, and I might see their point of view pretty easily.

I'd argue that this storyline portrays the most extended period of strife for that version of the Legion in their history. Add this on top of the bad times set up by the Magic Wars (and remembering that 5YL is now out of continuity), then I can see them being more cynical and snappy than we'd like them to be. Even Cos!

However, as things pass, I also feel like the edginess will subside and the more optimistic nature of the Legionnaires emerge more prominently. It'll never be as bright and sunny as the Silver Age, but the characters will probably act more consistently with how we expect them to act. Cos will be the noble, stoic guy we expect him to be and the others will follow suit. This is what I expect, anyway, as long as Paul continues to guide them.

In Paul I trust!

One should beware of false gods.

The idea that we should give Levitz a chance "to work out the rust" is telling, I think. Only in comics are fans admonished to give creators a chance to figure things out as they go along. In any other medium, writers are expected to have figured out the story and the characters before presenting them to the public.

I agree with Set's analysis of Cosmic Boy and the others: It was the fact that they were acting so extreme in extreme situations that made the break with their established behaviors so believable. However, you've got to have that "baseline" personality to know when a character is acting unusual. When he does act unusual, it better be for a darn good reason.

I'm also not buying the "a lot has happened since we last saw our friends" argument. This argument is creator shorthand for "I don't have the time or the desire to explain this to you now; you'll just have to trust me."

I'm more demanding of writers these days. Trust has to be earned.

I think some Legion fans (self included) are pretty much like those headshy dogs that you can't pet because their last owner used to beat them.

We've been dicked around pretty egregiously since about 1985, and I, for one, have little of the 'give them a chance!' left, after having been smacked on the nose a dozen or so times in that interim.

After awhile, you feel like Charlie Brown, running at the ball, 'trusting' Lucy to not yank it away this time. Yeah, Lucy fooled him the first time, but by now, you gotta wonder what the heck is wrong with that kid.