Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion Of Super Heroes #1

Well, there is that panel in SECRETS OF THE LEGION #1 which clearly shows Imra's mother having TK so it could be a hereditary trait which Saturn Girl eventually developed...

On the one hand, I totally agree. On the other hand, I'd be even more pleased if they worked with what they had much more effectively than they have in the past.

Threeboot Dream Girl kicked ass, without being turned into Dream or given new powers. A subtle expansion of her powers, perhaps allowing her to sense the past of an area, in addition to the future, or to detect temporal fluctuations (perhaps making her immune to the pretty much constant revisions and reboots and retcons going on, as she is the one that, like Layla Miller, remembers all of the alternate stuff that has happened), could be neat, without significantly changing her powerset or her 'theme.'

Similarly, I'd rather see Shadow Lass's abilities further defined around absorbing and negating energy, allowing her to block or dampen energy fields, defend against energy weapons, perhaps even drain and stall vehicles, etc. An innate defensive use of that same ability might make her highly resistant to damage from energy weapons (but be of no help at all against shrapnel, face-punching or whatever, explaining her continuing focus on melee combat / martial arts, as she may be laser resistant, but she can still get bonked with a stick!). Darkforce powers are way cool, but they are pretty much a rip off of the force constructs that Green Lanterns already do, and Marvel has already cornered that niche with Darkstar, Cloak, Blackout, etc, etc. so I'd rather see something that derives from her light-nullifying darkfields, without copying another character.

Phantom Girl is pretty cool as is, being the only Legionnaire who can legitimately claim to be even more 'invulnerable' than Superboy or Mon-El, since stuff that can kill them goes right through her like Montezuma's Revenge. I do like the idea of her being able to partially solidify within someone, not to do the 'Vision' trick, because that only works for him because he's a robot. What she could do, perhaps, is interfere with blood flow, or disrupt bodily functions by blocking nervous signals, or even knock someone out by preventing their brain cells from being able to communicating with each other, because her hand is in the way. She wouldn't be solidifying enough to actually *hurt* them, because, to do so would also *hurt her.* She might be able to 'do the Vision thing' *once,* but she'd blow her hand off in the process, so that's pretty much a one-shot trick, and one that she'd be unlikely to use on a living target in any event, as it's not a nonlethal option...

[And Violet can do much of this as well, by shrinking down to sub-cellular size and flying into someone's body to block an artery, or block their nervous system by enlarging within their spinal cord just enough to 'crimp the wire' and prevent signal from getting through, causing them to collapse like a marionette with it's strings cut, but not inflicting any actual long-term harm, as she isn't destroying cells or tissue, just 'getting in the way' for a short time.]

One logical development of her ability to phase through matter is that she should also be able to *see* through solid matter. When she's all pale and ghostly, the rest of the material world should be all pale and ghostly to her, allowing her to see what's on the other side of that wall before she dives through it. I have no idea if she's supposed to have that limited 'X-Ray Vision' sort of power, but she really should, since it fits both the nature of her power, and the occasional graphical representation of her phantom state as being at least somewhat translucent.

They are pretty dire, all things considered.

Wildfire can also destroy *anything,* and it doesn't have to be something he can fit into his mouth (ditto Element Lad). Tenzil Kem has turned into one hell of an interesting *person,* but when he uses his powers, I cringe. How a man with no superhuman reflexes is supposed to cross 10 meters and bite a gun in half *faster than the bad-guy can pull the trigger and blow a hole in his chest,* I just do not get. How a man with a mouth three inches across at maximum extension can bite through a six foot door or a spaceship hull or any of the other ridiculous flat surfaces he's been shown chomping holes in is beyond me. Too many times, he's portrayed doing flat-out impossible things to 'make him look cool' (or just 'useful') and that's kinda insulting to the character. If the artist and writer have to cheat to make him look anything other than hapless, maybe he needs to go back to the drawing board (or, back into politics, celebrity life and / or cooking). I think Tenzil Kem would make a great supporting character, filling a Gigi, Shvaugn, Gym'll, Brande style role, but as a Legionnaire, he's pretty silly, and every writer/artist contortion to make him appear effective is just, IMO, kinda embarassing to read, as if a scene starring Batman, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Green Arrow and Karate Kid kicking butt was suddenly interrupted by the arrival of Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew.

As for Invisible Jacques, Sensor *and* Imra can make other people not only fail to see them, but fail to see the entire team, or see the entire world differently, and Cham and Shrinking Violet are even better at going unseen, and can additionally sneak into places where Jacques can't fit, meaning that, for his very specific role on the team, there are at least four Legionnaires who can dance around him singing 'Anything you can do, I can do better!'

It would probably be better to expand Phantom Girl to allow her to go past 'translucent' to 'invisible' and just send Jacques into retirement to raise his little sister or something.

IMO, unlike Tenzil, he's not even interesting in his own right. (Danielle, on the other hand, is pretty cool, and I'd be delighted to see her at the Academy, perhaps using an old-school codename like 'Robot Master!')

Interesting ideas, Set. You're right about ME Lad. It is pretty much a joke to think he can really contribute in a fight, which is why I suggested a ray from his mouth to keep with his oral theme.

The fact that he's consumed the miracle machine could make him powerful on a cosmic level, but that would be pretty hard to SWALLOW, turning him from a useless joke to a supreme being. Maybe a decent writer could handle it well though.

I never bought the Secrets series because I didn't like the art, so I didn't know about Imra's mom being a TK. I just don't want Imra turned into a clone of Jean Grey.

a female having TK and telepathy doesn't automatically make a Jean Grey. Imra grew up in a complete society of psi-adepts - not merely under the tutelage on one guy who himself was learnin as he went.

Even if Imra does have TK, it's an easy sidestep to avoid Grey Syndrome.

[snip]

Set wrote:

Quote

...As for Invisible Jacques, Sensor *and* Imra can make other people not only fail to see them, but fail to see the entire team, or see the entire world differently, and Cham and Shrinking Violet are even better at going unseen, and can additionally sneak into places where Jacques can't fit, meaning that, for his very specific role on the team, there are at least four Legionnaires who can dance around him singing 'Anything you can do, I can do better!'...

Eh. Following that logic, you don't really need Superboy, Mon-El, Blok, and Ultra Boy all on the same team, either.

Seriously, like three-quarters of the team has powers that are either redundant or silly if you think too much about them.

Anyway, I have now read this issue (thanks to the generous assistance of a fellow Legion Worlder!) and will post my comments later today!

Now that I think about it, if Jacques' powers included the sort of "universal" invisibility that Lemnos had in Threeboot, he'd be pretty damn formidable. Yeah, I know. Everyone makes fun of Threeboot, but in a society where technology makes it impossible for people to have true anonymity, making tech unable to see or "remember" you at all would be a pretty useful skill.

That page also describes her powers as 'ESP' and not simply telepathy. ESP is used in parapsych studies as an umbrella term for both clairvoyance and telepathy. It's kind of funny that the page describes her in text as having a power she's never used (clairvoyance) and shows her mom using telekinesis. It's like 'random psychic crap!' is the Titanian super-power...

To mash up the 'Tenzil eats the Miracle Machine and gets new powers' idea with his own unique nature, perhaps he has developed the ability to create stuff within his stomach, and has to burp them up? He's able to create anything he can fit in his mouth!

"We need a new flight ring for this member being deputized in the heat of battle!"

URP. "Here ya go." <wipes shiny new ring off on shirt>

[First person to suggest changing his name to Matter-Burper Lad gets a finger bitten off!]

Such a character could be amazingly fun to write as a member of a hero team. The other heroes would never remember that he was there, and he'd constantly have to deal with stuff like automatic doors not opening for him, or the Legion Cruiser taking off without him, since nobody would ever remember that they even had a member named 'Amnesia Lad,' let alone wait for him to get on board. He'd wear a Flight Ring that would be officially logged as 'missing or stolen,' because nobody would remember him earning it. He'd show up in the middle of fight scenes and help surprise villains (who didn't know he existed either) and the Legion would 'meet the new guy' and thank him for his help, and, two panels later, have forgotten they ever met him.

He'd have *long ago* given up on reminding people who he was, and just force a smile and shake hands with people he's met and explained his powers to a dozen times in the past...

He'd be all alone in the Legion Headquarters, people bustling around, talking, making friends, getting into arguments, and he'd be like a ghost, wandering around, always watching the lives of the others, but never truly being part of those lives. He'd have to change quarters every now and then, as guests or new members would be assigned to the 'empty quarters' he is, essentially, squatting in, and he'd be used to living a minimalized life, with his possessions hidden away, so that they don't get discovered and thrown out or something.

I love this character already. He'd sit around during meetings (having overheard there was going to be a meeting on his Flight Ring, since nobody would think to actually tell him specifically) and make snarky comments or silly faces or add his own editorial commentary, since nobody would hear him. Every now and then, he'd sneak a little bit of input in by tapping on someone's keyboard and making it look like their elbow hit it or something, calling up information that he thinks is relevant and that the team is missing. (Which could be funny if he picks a particular teammate to do this to, and the other Legionnaries begin to question how Jo always seems to be able to call up some useful information on his pad that the others hadn't considered yet, despite appearing to be asleep at the meeting again...)

A year or so into the comic, he could be so jaded by the nature of his powers that after he appears out of nowhere and surprises another villain, and the surprised Legionnaires ask who he is (for the dozenth time) he just throws a hand up and walks away, fading into invisibility as he does so.

Sometime after that, a member of the team could either deduce his presence, and they could have a 'hunt for the ghost in the HQ' or whatever. Could be Brainy, could be Imra, more resistant to his mental amnesia effect, could be Tinya, already partially 'not-there' herself, could be Cham, through good old-fashioned sleuthing. In either event, they might design a machine that allows them to temporarily remember him, and he gets to actually meet them and feel like a member of the team for a short time before something happens and the machine breaks, and he's forgotten again (and, since the Legionnaire who designed the machine has forgotten why he needed it, we see Brainy at the end deleting a file, wondering why he even had a schematic for such a device, since it obviously 'didn't do anything,' leaving Amnesia Lad once again the forgotten Legionnaire!).

Both telepathy and ESP have kind of changed their meaning over time. Both have been pretty much used as umbrella terms for "random psychic crap" at one time or another. Hence Telepathy Man of the Super-Companions (who is a telekinetic) and Esper Lass (who is primarily a telepath).

Very true.

My parapsych pet peeve is the attempted change of telekinesis to 'psychokinesis.' Gosh, why not change telepathy to 'psychopathy?'

"What's your power, Titan Lad?"

"Psychopathy!"

"Ah, you have the wrong room. Fatal Five tryouts are third door on the left."

Dude. I kinda went along with all this for shits and giggles. Even went so far as to ask Paul about it on his Facebook! But this...

THIS is the effin' <span style="font-size: 25px;">smoking gun</span>, fellow Legionites!!!

*GASP!*

Yeah, I know, right? Here's a nice sopha if ya feel faint! (Now, WHERE's that sopha graemlin? )

We're waiting, Ester! (Now, WHERE'S that foot-pattin' graemlin? )

Of course, we know he's gonna hate it....

Well, I didn't exactly hate it, but I can't say I particularly liked it, either.

My thoughts (many of which echo others in this thread):

--First off, a general point. If I'd been handed this comic with no credits and no knowledge of who it was by, I really don't think I would've guessed that it was a Levitz-written Legion issue. Nor would I have necessarily guessed that this was any kind of continuation of the Legion that Levitz wrote. In fact, except for the Lad/Lass names and a few cast members, it felt more like a possible future of the reboot era than the preboot era.

--I absolutely hate the whole xenophobia background. From the very beginning, with the whole "representing diversity, unity, and tolerance" thing grafted into the team's mission statement, it felt wrong.

--I didn't really get the Earth Man "torture" scenes. Doesn't Earth Man's power drain off after a certain amount of time? What's the point of (apparently painfully) draining off his powers artificially?

--The portrayal of S.P.'s seemed a bit weird. In the prison, you've got the one guard who's apparently pro-torture and the other one who's apparently sympathetic to the xenophobes? The interaction between the Legionnaires and the S.P.'s reminded me a lot of Waid's run.

--So... Brainy. This doesn't seem at all like the Brainy of v3, who'd gained humility with experience over the years. I agree with those who have said that he seems borderline insane in this issue (not somewhere that I want to see him go again).

--The whole Sodam Yat scene is incredibly goofy. I thought so when I saw the preview, but even reading the story itself, I couldn't help but crack-up on that page!

--It did kind of irritate me that with an extra-sized book, only a handful of Legionnaires actually got significant screen time.

--Dawnstar. Seriously, you've just finished an incomplete evacuation of a world on which millions and millions of people are about to die, and you think it's appropriate to be bragging about how much faster you are than the Legion cruiser? Not that I remember her being particularly likeable, but this is ridiculous.

--Saturn Girl. Just about every panel she was in completely rocked. Loved the incorporation of Aven. Definitely interested in the mystery of what happened to the twins. There were certainly quite a few moments when reading her flying across the planet where things just really felt... right.

So, er, this probably came off as a bit more negative than my reaction actually was. Remember that Saturn Girl was in the book quite a bit!

All in all, I guess the basic point is that the issue was okay, but I still don't feel the urgent need to interrupt my current non-comic buying status and run out to pick up the next issue.

This bit bugged me. It felt like 'false equivalence.'

And in this case, it goes one step further, in making the choice between the pro-bigotry candidate and the pro-torture candidate!

Gosh, that's hardly 'balanced,' where the pro-taking candy from babies candidate and the pro-necrophilia candidate and the pro-Hitler candidate?

So it's okay that we don't like Earth-Man, 'cause he's all murderous and racist and stuff, but that means we're on the side of the sadistic torturer? Nice.

Imma go off and kick a puppy now. 'Cause that's what us anti-killer-bigots do, right? There's no 'right choice,' it's just 'bad guys' and 'worse guys.'

I'm sure that wasn't the intent of the scene, but it seems like someone worked awful hard to continue the 'all Earth people are dicks, and you suck if you agree with *any* of them' presentation started in the Lightning Saga.

I get that no one position should be 100% right, and it's more dramatic to have some uncomfortable positions on both sides, but this felt a little over the top.

I don't think so.

I've enjoyed reading the overwhelmingly positive comments on this thread, but they remind me that what fans of the Legion like about this series isn't what I like (or would like to see).

Honestly, I'm not sure if people are so ga-ga over Levitz's return to the Legion that they would accept a phone book if it were written by him, or if LSH # 1 represents some sort of culmination in the direction DCU has been heading, and people are just used to it. In any case, I don't see anything remotely resembling or continuing from Levitz's previous era.

I've been away too long . . . or maybe not long enough.

I thought Levitz was being topical by alluding to current debates about the torture of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. I don't think we're supposed to see either the torturer or the xenophobe SP officer as good guys. They are just there to illustrate the sharply divided and passionate views people have over the issue of torture of prisoners.

I don't call Saturn Girl and/or her mother using TK exactly ONCE in over 50 years a smoking gun. I call it a mistake. Night Girl and Phantom Girl were each ONCE shown using x-ray vision. I call those mistakes too. Timber Wolf was ONCE said to have a "healing factor." I also call that a mistake. Mekt and Garth were ONCE depicted as twins. Also a mistake. Just because something has appeared in print one time ever doesn't mean it has to be accepted as gospel or canon.

Yeah, I think something like that is what Levitz was trying to do, but on top of the Legionnaires-storming-into-the-S.P.-office scene, it really kind of put the Sci Cops in an unfortunately bad light.

It connects to a criticism that I believe you made in your review, which is that almost no one in this book comes off as particularly likeable (with the exceptions of Saturn Girl and the soon-dead Usalus).

Better late than never.

YAY
- Gigi Cuisimano. I liked the way she shouted down Cosmic Boy. She's my kind of girl.
- Sun Boy's new costume makes my skin tingle (oh, shut up, Imra). Maybe Gigi will notice and be tempted to reignite their brief romance. Come on, Gigi, give him another chance!. You may be the only person alive who can convince Dirk too stop dyeing his hair blonde. The brief but ominous Sun Boy/Earth Man interaction was pretty good.
- Harmonia Li, Woman of Mystery. Why was she the only scientist to survive The Giant Hand? Is she really a pre-cog? The mom of Rond Vidar's son? Time will tell, but she looks capable of holding her own in a shouting match with Brainiac 5, which is no small talent in itself.
- Saturn Girl firing up the Time Sphere to go ..where? ... when? She has no idea. It was a leap-of-faith decision that's atypical of Imra, which puts it into the Yay category.
- Earth Man getting the GL ring ought to botch up Brainy's plan to keep him on a leash. Heh!

MEH
- Yeah, Earth Man is a royal jerkwad but I don't object to him or any other "villain" joining the team if it challenges the anal moral rectitude of Cosmic Boy and his apostles or drives Sun Boy to drink. What I object to are the story contrivances that put him there. If the 3boot proved anything, it's that there aren't a great many Legion readers who delight in having political plot devices shoved down their throats.
- Brainy's "Sauron" moment was funny, and I usually like my Coluans with a little touch of evil, but his performance here was definitely off-key.
- More Dawnstar and Ultra Boy. YAWN.
- A Big Bad with some sort of time-related powers? Gee, that's new!
- The Ranzz tykes. Levitz provides a good explanation for their long absence, but having the boys she hasn't seen in months "dumped on" her is so burdensome to Imra, maybe they're better off lost in the timestream. And by the looks of them, I say they're really Dirk's kids anyway!
- I have nothing intelligent to add to the Imra TK debate. I really don't care.
- Dyogene. Visually he's okay for a bug person but his dialogue is dreadful. Maybe he's been hanging out with Zymr a little too much..
- Dumb and dumberer red-shirt scientists. Pffft.
- Titan's final hours weren't as entertaining as the evacuation of Xenn way back in 1964, let alone the destruction of other planets (Trom, Orando) in previous versions of the Legion. To be fair, I think it was just the opening salvo in a bigger crisis, but its emotional weight was practically nil. The dying moment of an old lady whose face we never saw, a cat and a mayfly are not the stuff of epic tragedy. Imra's whole world didn't die, just the rock her people were living on. Now they're Earth's problem, and another cobblestone set in the road to Dystopia - a place where I don't wanna go.
- The art isn't hard on the eyes, and Cinar and his partners (inker, colorist) deserve props for completing 39 pages without any serious gaffs ... but it just doesn't excite me. Maybe I'll look upon it more favorably if Mr. Cinar makes haste in redesigning the fugly Gary Frank costumes.


WTH?
- I'm more confused than ever about the Xenophobia thing. In this issue, Levitz reverses Geoff Johns "aliens who just coincidentally happen to look human" claptrap with his reference to Legion worlds (he names Tharr, Braal and Winath as examples) "seeded by humans" who adapted to their new environments. The idea is sound enough (for fictional science) but it raises more questions than it answers. I can easily be convinced that Earthlings might fear and loathe telepaths from Titan, magical types from Orando or Naltor, and blue warrior people from Talok VIII, be they human or not. But why exactly are they persecuting their friendly farmer cousins from Winath and other eligible members of their "Master Race" who resemble the human norm more closely than mutant Indians with wings or wierdo horror-flick rejects like Tusker and Eyeful Ethel? I didn't read the Mon-El/bottle cities stories, nor do I care to, so if there's something crucial I missed, pleas clue me in.


NAY
- Sodom Yat. No wonder he's all alone in Greenland - the Guardians of Oa must have committed suicide rather than listen to him wailing and whining for a thousand years.
- Imra's secrets. Jumpin' geezus, lady, gimme a break! Her complaint against her hubby was trite and hypocritical. Garth's stupidest mistake in his whole fictional life, besides marrying Imra, was neglecting to kick *her* for dumping him on the brink of a nervous breakdown, and running off to the frozen asteroid to mind-boink Timber Wolf. (See the parallels?) I'd buy a tabloid-sized divorce special in a minute, but this just looks like an excuse for Levitz to torture readers with the the obnoxious founder triangle - a shabby soap opera cliché if I ever saw one.
- Speculative Nay: If that *is* Lydda in bed with Brek, her life has truly tanked.
- "Inaccurate reporting" and "chronicler's errors", eh? Leave the old Silver Age Legion stories alone, godddamit. It goes without saying, I'm steering clear of Levitz's new Adventure run.
- Speaking of chronicler's errors, Dr. Aven was never so popular in the post-0 Hour Legion he deserves a special transfer to Levitz3. For the record, original Saturn Girl's mentor was Professor Vndaar (Superboy & LSH #236 written by Paul Whatshisname.) Trivia, maybe, but Vndaar was actually more interesting than Aven in that he seemed to have an unhealthy affection for his favorite girl student. So why arbitrarily redact the chronicle for the sake of an Easter Egg? This has Geoff Johns fingerprints all over it.

Final verdict - the Mehs have it, so I'm grading it "B" for the artwork and "C" for the writing and premise. Levitz3 reads like exactly what it is - a spinoff of the Johnsboot instead of a sequel to Levitz2 --- which doesn't fill me with any warm and giddy feelings. The writing was without question more mature than the infantile fanboy drivel delivered by Johns but all things considered, Legion #1 compares poorly to the other creative team debuts still fresh in my memory -- Shooter/Manapul 2008, Waid/Kitson 2004 and DNA/Coipel 2000. Other than a few intriguing threads Levitz may yet weave into a story I want to read, this issue wasn't much fun. It was almost a chore to finish.

But the bald truth is what I, you and we think obviously doesn't matter a great deal to DC or even to Levitz, who said old fans probably won't like what he's going to do. Only time will tell the reaction of the hypothetical new readers this reboot so desperately needs if it's to avoid the sorry fate of its predecessors. I don't see much excitement talk outside the usual fora by the usual voices, though. The fact DC didn't offer a ring with this issue (when the cover depicts two of 'em) telegraphs the message they're not sure of its long term investment value, either. And so the vicious cycle begins anew.

Yay, Tromium is back!

Tromium, as always, you space-rock!

[snip]

That sounds pretty close to Reboot Jacques. To be clear, I don't think we need another Tragic Hero, especially not one who's a POC, given how Geoff Johns seems to be torturing and/or bumping them off lately. I'd want to see that kind of power be small-scale and controllable.

As a solo "hero" in a Vertigo-esque story, your outline would be great though.