Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Giffen is doing LSH Annual!!!

Well, that's cool, but if a lawyer rests his case, he (or she) generally feels that he has presented the best evidence he could to prove his point. So when you said that, it implied (intended or not) that said piece of artwork was all the proof we would need that Giifen's art is "hideous". That's what I took issue with.

I know Giffen, and specifically his artwork, is controversial and devisive, but he nonetheless does have his fans. I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL.

So please, Giffen haters, keep in mind that different fans have different tastes and that if they disagree with you, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are right and they are wrong.

Respect always.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That goes two ways. Giffen defenders seem happy to insist that they are right.

SA Lad, I'm not sure if I'm one of those 'Giffen defenders' you refer to, but I should point out that I said, "I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL." I think that makes it fairly clear that I don't think he walks on water.

Again, my objection is to dealing in absolutes and particularly phrasing words in such a way as to imply others are wrong for thinking differently. My defense here is of those whom those assertions would disrespect.

By all means, share your opinions here on whatever you feel like sharing, even if they're negative. But always be mindful and respectful of differing opinions. If one thinks Giffen's art is "hideous", then provide examples and don't phrase them in such a way that someone who likes his art is being degraded. "In my opinion" is always a respectful route to go as far as verbage. Also, if there's any thing nice at all you can add about Giffen's work, it shows a more balanced viewpoint.

Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but this particular awesome message board is built primarily on the tenet of "respect". Show respect here, and your views will be respected in turn.

Giffen I do not like...

There was an issue of DCCP with the Creeper that was incomprehensible ro me fronm what I remember.

The Trencher style with the hash marks everywhere.

Giffen I do like...

Everything else.

No artist turns in perfect work every time...none.

I think Giffen's always been at his best and most consistent so far as page composition goes. His early illustration was handsome but could be stiff and limited in the variety of images. His later work is more fluid and spontaneous looking, but sometimes borders on being incoherent. Some of its mannerisms also get in the way of the faces being as expressive as they could be, as opposed to the forms-- which have a strong sense of gesture that I usually find to be appealing.

Of course, I've always envied his design sense. A good artist should make it look easy to immerse a reader in an environment that doesn't exist but yet has to feel plausible. From what I've seen, that's been a fairly consistent strength of his, too. The costumes have had their ups and downs, but at their best they walk a good line between streamlined and having enough detail to differentiate between one character and the next.

I know a lot of fans disliked his "pocket costume" stage, but it had a paradoxical old-school, pre-superhero feel to it that grew on me eventually.

In any case, I haven't kept up with him lately, so I'll be curious to see where he is now, art-wise.

That being said...I am looking forward to this.

Hmm... maybe they'll address the mystery of what happened to the late v3 costumes Giff designed!

You are not alone. Jwould perfer to never see Giffen do anything Legion related. His reboot issue with Gear and Chuck cleaning Legion World was so horrible!! His 5YL crap is best forgotten. At least there is no KArate Kid for him to kill again, and again.

See, I think his 5YL stuff with the Bierbaums was some of the best characterization that some of these characters ever had. Plus they introduced several new and memorable characters that I would love to see enter the current continuity. That's not to say that everything they attempted worked perfectly...but it was a lot better than several other era's of Legion comics that we have gotten since then.

Again: Giffen was NOT responsible for the reboot issue of Gear and Chuck. He was just the artist. 5YL, on the other hand, is the best Legion era for me and most of my friends, so it's not crap. Crap is Kevin Sharpe's art. Or Justin Thyme.

Can someone post this infamous Legacies cover that's supposed to be so horrible?

Kevin Sharpe has his fans, please be civil.

[removed image, since Dev posted it before me]

Solicited here and showing on the main page scroll as well.

^really not seeing the hate, here. I think it's a pretty decent cover.

They need a LOVE button for me to click for this cover.

It really looks nothing like Giff's prior styles that I can recall. It's got kind of a nice Silver Agey/Bronze Agey vibe to it.

Heck, it frankly does more for me than any of Jim Lee's LSH variants have so far! Am I that far off the median here?!?!

It looks all right to me. I mean, I'm not drooling over it but I'm not foaming at the mouth, either.

Except for the kind of goofy looking Superman, I'd say it's okay, but not anything great.

I'd also agree the Jim Lee covers are nothing to go ga-ga over.

There is no median. I think the Annual cover is incredibly bad (Imra, in particular!), and Jim Lee's covers are beautiful. But opinions on art are always gonna be subjective.

I would, in a second, chose the deliberately distorted and 'toony' art from the cartoon series in a second as 'serious art' over that cover. At least with cartoon art, with their tiny little waists and ankles and wrists, and bulging calves and forearms, the distortions of body proportions are obvious stylistic choices, and consistent within the medium, as opposed to that cover, where Wildfire is all hippalicious, Superboy's leg attaches very strangely to his torso, and Timber Wolf looks stretched-out and slightly deformed. In the case of the cover, the physical malformations don't appear to be any one consistent stylistic choice, but wander all over the place, making me think the only consistent theme is 'deformed.'

But that's just my own perspective. I'm sure Giffen had some unifying theme that I'm missing. There's a faint Kirby feel to it, but it lacks the blocky and bold sense of weight or presence that a Kirby picture would have.

And now I've gone totally off the deep end, referring to Kirby's art as having weight. Next I'll sip my soda and comment on its fruity undertones....

I don't mean to imply that I'm in love with the Legacies cover (not the Annual's cover, Set, which is as-yet unsolicited), but it has a nice nostalgia factor going on with an obvious homage to several past Legion covers in its format. In contrast Lee's covers just haven't grabbed me at all in any way. I'd say that Perez's character-focused L3W were much better and didn't require any of the extra dough that owning Lee's require.

Cosmic Boy has a Plastino feel to me, while barrel-chested Garth is very Wayne Boring.
Wildfire's pose mimics Grell's cover to the 1st tabloid & Superboy reminds me of Staton's cover to S/LSH # 250.
Timber Wolf & Imra I don't like at all.

See, I knew there had to be some sort of unifying theme going on. The images just seemed too discordant, in notably different styles. If he's picking characteristic images from the past and trying to emulate the styles of those artists, that's a valid technique, even if I'm not nearly experienced enough of a Legion fan to recognize those homages.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that he's going for a "imitate different eras" kind of feel, but I don't think he's being all that successful at it.

The only picture I really like on that cover is Giffin's Invisible Kid in the lower left hand box.

Kidding obviously... Seriously, the early "Cockrum-y" Wildfire looks really good. I don't care for the other Legionnaires on the cover though.