Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Adventure Comics #517 - SPOILERS

Well, there were some really good ideas in the story. But the whole thing was run through so quickly that none of them were really allowed to develop as they could have.

I mean, we had poor Sergeant Red Shirt bumped off before we ever got a chance to learn much of anything about her. (Oh, and go, DC! It's always important to rack up a few more dead POC, given your current track record in that regard. Great. Just great. :rolleyes: ) Now her death is this great motivator for Imra, but how can we feel that when we never got to know anything about her except that she liked the idea of the Legion but didn't want to admit it out loud?

We have Rokk being all solicitous of Imra one second and suddenly deciding to stay away from her (post-mindwipe) for reasons that don't actually make any logical sense.

The ideas had potential, but they just didn't come together well.

The art has its ups and downs. The opening sequence is fairly good, despite the totally jarring transitions that follow it. The rest... not so good.

I guess if I gave out stars for these kinds of things, I'd go with two stars.

Just noticed something puzzling. An object on Cosmic Boy's bed stand sure looks like a flight ring in this period of flight belts. Did Imra actually mind-wipe a Rokk from the future? What's with the removal of flight rings signalling sex anyway? Can only recall it being used once before, when Shvaughn tossed Jan's off during the Baxter era...

Well, the Flight Rings include their life support stuff, so I guess this means that the sex was unprotected.

How isn't 235 in continuity??? and there was nothing about what the legion did in 235 and especially 259 that was done to save history. In 235 the basis of the story was about Superboy using the knowledge of extended life to give it to his parents, and saving him the temptation to use such knowledge on them and others, there was nothing about saving history there. 259 was done because they did not want superboy to be tormented by the knowledge of his parents deaths everytime he visited them in the 30th century (he would forget anything he learned significant of his future when he returned to the 20th century but remember when he came to the 30th century - such as why he doesn't need to be reintroduced to supergirl everytime he sees her in the legion - That's not saving the intergrity of the timeline.

Now i agree there is part of Imra's mindwipe that had to do with saving her skin. But as she as everyone (and given what we know about her and some have put her on the pedstal should know about her) is that she is complex and has more than one reason. So if she's saying she's doing it to save the legion...and she has demonstrated that aspect of her character in the books then I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt (especially since Paul himself has confirmed this view - i had this b4 i knew what he said and glad i saw what he was doing). And not feel that is all over cause she did this ONE thing.

I think the removal of the rings is more to indicate being off-duty and not available for missions.

Unfortunately, Imra was so wasted she remembers nothing of what happened after the third round of drinks, so Cos's performance levels will remain unrecorded until Cynde publishes her memoirs. I've pre-ordered a copy on Amazon3000.com.

I will argue that Levitz *deliberately* crafted the one-night stand scene to make it morally repugnant. There's no mistake about Imra's horror and self-loathing at her own stupidity and weakness, and we're supposed to feel those emotions, too. The reader reacting with discomfort (at a minimum) or full-blown disgust (mirroring her own feelings) is the writer's clear intent and he cements it with the mindwipe, an action so indefensible that even the most eloquent Imra-defenders can't justify it. Levitz is not letting her off the hook -- he has more in store for her - and he doesn't want us to, either. IMO.

Yeah, she's cast in concrete as the Legion's erotic poster girl of moral ambiguity.. The Jim Lee variant cover of LSH #1 would be the perfect expression of this idea if only she had a more seductive look on her face (maybe she should be licking her lips or something.). Levitz is not solely responsible for it, but he started the whole thing in 1981 and has now given the image immortal life.

I think she'll get some comeuppance -- Fate is going to b#tchslap her in the face twice (two will die in her place) -- but that's nowhere near enough emotional payback to make reading the story worthwhile.

Well, in addition to mindwiping Cos of any memories, she may have implanted a post-hypnotic suggestion to steer clear of her. But I don't think that's really the case. I suspect that Cos, despite being mindwiped -- or perhaps *because* he was mindwiped -- perceives subconsciously there's something seriously wrong with this chick.

I was shocked and angry when I first read the issue, specifically the Saturn Girl sleeping with Cosmic Boy bomb. I have since changed my thinking a bit...
I think what we are meant to see is that Imra is a woman who has flaws ... just like everybody else. Yes she is this ledgendary hero and a proven leader of her team, and now a mother of two, but she's still "human" after all.

I think what Paul wants us to realize is that the Ice Maiden (I know that's not who she's been for quite some time) became the way she did for various different reasons ... all culminating in her become the person she is today.

I don't think we're done seeing her growth as a human being nor as a role model/heroine on this book or the regular Legion book as well.

In defense of Saturn Girl:

IMO the story established two very important items about the young Saturn Girl.
1) Imra was not always the strong, secure, cold-fish iron butt she has been characterized as. In her youngest days as a Legionnaire, she had insecurities and was desperate to retain her Legionnaire membership and be able to "hold her own" with her fellow (good looking) members.
2) Probably before anyone else other than RJ Brande, she realized the Legion itself was greater than the sum of its parts. Her fear was that a one night stand would destroy the new, fragile Legion. Her situation and that of Rokk's was a secondary consideration, and the mindwipe was her way of taking the burden of a potential Legion-wrecking incident upon herself alone, which is quite a heroic action if you think about it. She does this sort of thing later with Medallions and Conspiracies, etc.

The story "Saturn Girl Rising" aptly describes the fast evolution of Imra into a Legionnaire who deserves to be a Legionnaire.

But who is the person she is today? She seems admirable on the surface, but looks are deceiving especially in Imra's case. Judging by the behavior of the two male founders in current times -- Cos is emotionally stunted in his relationships and Garth is inexplicably angry at him -- she has *not* told either of them the truth. Both men are subconsciously acting out tensions that remain unresolved 10-15 years later. IMO.

Side note: Upon first read, when Saturn Girl described her luck that she was going to meet her idol just after her celibacy proclamation, I thought she was referring to Brainiac 5!

Gee, Brainy sure attracts the blondes...

Concern for the Legion was only part of it. The other was covering her iron butt out of mortal embarrassment. The "heroic" response would have been to confront the truth and take the consequences (in private), even that meant leaving the team. At this early stage, Imra was not the end and be-all of the Legion, even if she thought she was.

I contend that the Legion as a group was her primary concern over all else. Sure, she was scared and her response may not have been the best, but chalk that up to youth and inexperience. Her actions taken were to protect the Legion and protect her teammate, not so much to remove her own embarrassment.

It might not be Imra specifically either. Whatever mind-mojo Imra has, it doesn't extend to cleaning up or changing the texture of tissue.

Rokk *has* to know that he did something with someone that night, but is left with a gap in his memory as to exactly who or how. For all he knows, he used his popularity to take advantange of some girl, perhaps even *assaulted* some girl during this alcohol-induced blackout.

He has to know that alcohol-induced blackouts don't happen without *massive* abuse, which suggests that either he's been drinking far, far too much in his teen years, or that he's prone to such blackouts, as a result of some sort of brain chemistry thing. In either event, unless Rokk *likes the idea* of waking up wondering if he's a rapist (or just such a lousy lay while he's hammered that girls get up and flee before he wakes up, without even leaving a note on the pillow), he seems unlikely to be willing to touch the stuff in the future.

His avoidance of Imra in the morning could be simply because he knows she's a telepath. He may have guiltily showered the physical evidence away in the morning, but he's probably reeking of self-reproach over whatever happened last night, and doesn't want to risk Imra catching a 'whiff' of it on his surface thoughts.

Depending on how much this bugs him, he might go so far as to look for security camera footage, or even seek out counseling to recover repressed memories, in the hopes of figuring out if he is some sort of out-of-control drunken predator, or if nothing non-consensual happened, or if *he* was the one taken advantage of, perhaps having even been drugged!

Without this blackout resolved, the most responsible course of action for Rokk would be to avoid drinking, and perhaps to be a bit skittish around women, until he's established exactly what sort of man he is.

There's all sorts of chatter about how Imra's life of 'ironbutt' control could stem from this moment, but perhaps Rokk's stick-up-his-butt control freak tendencies come from this one forgotten night, in which he knows only that he was *completely* out of control...

Cos at this point strikes me as one of those boys who rolled 12 in Charisma and can get any girl they want. They ooze of self-confidence and teachers appoint them to be leaders. You hear talk that they are getting alot, but you can't tell how much is reality and how much is rumor.

This has been my personal experiance with leader types when they are young, as a young person.

How does this 'protect her teammate' though?

Do Braalians have a strict no-sex-before-marriage law that would result in Rokk suffering some dire fate if it gets out that he kissed a girl?

How exactly does this protect him, and not *her?*

I don't think it's un-possible that teen Imra would have done such a thing, training aside, later portrayals aside, but could she really be so far around the bend as to be able to convince herself that it was for *his* benefit?

This perhaps touches back to the more general discussion we had in the 'outing' discussion. Is lying to someone ever the morally right thing to do, or just the (sometimes understandable) choice-of-convenience?

If someone makes a mistake, and steps are taken to make sure that she never faces the consequences of that mistake, does she learn anything from it, other than how to lie, and that lying is a good way to avoid responsibility?

Indeed, the longer the deception stands, the more it reinforces the notion that the lie was the correct choice, which, human behavior being what it is, only would encourage her to lie again, and again, to avoid controversial or awkward conversations or confrontrations about her actions.

The only way 'out' I'm seeing is for it to have come out long ago, and, if mentioned at all in the pages of LSH, it be referred to as something from the distant past that everyone involved knows about and is long since over.

If it isn't brought up, then she 'got away with it,' and no lesson is learned, other than 'Imra lies, and gets away with it.'

If it turns out to be some fight as repressed memories come to light, it retcons Imra into having spent *her entire heroic career* living and maintaining a lie.

[snip]

Tromium:

Quote

...Well, in addition to mindwiping Cos of any memories, she may have implanted a post-hypnotic suggestion to steer clear of her. But I don't think that's really the case. I suspect that Cos, despite being mindwiped -- or perhaps *because* he was mindwiped -- perceives subconsciously there's something seriously wrong with this chick.

Eh. Maybe.

I just can't see these events being unresolved in the "present day" stories, regardless of how we're seeing them treated in Adventure at the moment.

I really hope that the whole series of events isn't something that we're supposed to assume just stayed buried all the way to the current history of the team. That would sorely test my suspension of disbelief, frankly. I get that we aren't seeing exactly the team I remember from two-odd decades ago, but still. It's tough for me to swallow that the team could be the entity it's supposed to be with something like this just ticking away in the background all those years.

If nothing else, some adversary with mental powers could certainly have picked up on it at some point, and brought it to light whether Imra wanted it out in the open or not.

And I'd rather see her work it out because she knew it was the right thing to do, not because somebody forced her to.

Although, this actually does give weird creedence to the worries Ayla and Garth had between Brin and Imra right before TGDS...when they were trapped on that asteroid. Even if Brin knew nothing about what Imra had done to Cos, maybe Garth and in turn, Ayla had found out and that's what sent her packing...amongst other things.

Which reminds me: I wonder if I'm the only Legion reader in the world who doesn't think Brin and Imra were actually up to anything untoward.

Maybe I'm just too trusting or something.

I'm with you Cleome. I read it as kindness and comfort in a frightening situation that was misconstrued by Ayla and Dawny.

Wow. Some of you have thought about this WAY too much. Just sayin'

EXACTLY how I always saw it.

Ayla swooped in at a moment they were platonically holding each other... she was already completely freaked out because he was gone... she sees them in an embrace... she's already fighting off her lesbianism with all her might... and then she sees Saturn Girl in the arms of her man.

Her mind goes WILD with crazy ideas of the two of them rolling around nude (on THE FREAKING ICE ASTEROID, c'MON Ayla, there wasn't going to be ANY nudity there whatsoever)...

But she sees it, she wigs and then discovers an easy out for her to ditch the LSH and go party on Winath at the TOO TWO GIRLS Saloon.

Add to it Ayla's longterm crush on her brother's girlfriend, and there you go!

And Dawnstar was just thinking, 'Dayum, everybody's getting some but me! Why did I fall for the guy whose body is made of anti-energy?'

I'm quite certain Dawnstar's later lesbian tryst can be worked into this somehow!