Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Adventure Comics #517 - SPOILERS

not all the time...s&lsh 235 was not with his knowledge they told him the machine was for another purpose. (and that wasn't silver age).

also LSH 259 when imra gave him that post-hypontic command to stay in the 20th century..also done without his knowledge and not silver age. he gave his permission after the reflecto affair that she deleted the whole psycho war incisdent from his mind.

There is NO other writer out there who I trust with characterizations within the LSH cast as much as Paul Levitz.

Perhaps we're finally seeing the return of the secondary sub-plot running beneath the main story, just like the old days.
You know, before this decompressed, talking head, written for the TPB junk we get now.

I'm along for the ride, and keeping my mind open. Sounds like there'll be some changes afoot.

Issue 235 isn't in continuity, so it doesn't count. And both 235 and 259 were done to save history. There's a difference between wiping someone's mind to save history and wiping someone's mind out of personal embarassment.

Yes, but they were retcons I liked. I don't have a problem with retcons per se (as long as the company/creative team is open and honest about it). However, pretty much every retcon that's been done to this version of the Legion has been something that's rubbed me the wrong way.

Another problem I have with this is that, despite some Legion fans getting all up in arms about it, this stuff is really pretty blah, plotwise. The founders-triangle idea is so 1990s. A story dealing with the consequences of mindwiping one's teammates might have been exciting, say, seven years ago. And, if you want that kind of story, why not do it with the various mindwipes of Superboy that have been mentioned in this thread? Let's deal with the consequences of that.

(I also prefer a Supes-Imra-Garth triangle as well, but that may just be me.)

All good points for sure.

Like it or not though the founders were the first three Legionnaires, so, to expect that we would see equal screen time between those 3 and others "secondary" characters, both Legionnaires and otherwise, is not realist. At least by issue #3 of this new AC on-going anyway.
That would be like starting a new Batman book and by #3 seeing the adventures of Alfred and commissioner Gordon for a few issues with only a passing glance and/or mention of Batman (and Robin) ... never gonna happen folks.

Let's all remember that this book was designed, I believe, to whet the appetites of new readers and tell them about some backstory about the cast. Think lots and lots of new readers = those much needed sales the Legion universe needs to keep the book going! The founders would need to be the first three characters to be fully fleshed out in order for everything else related to the future history (?) to make sense later.
Does that mean that some of us older readers are going to be bored with aspects of the plot (ie: Garth/Imra/Rokk triangle)? Well, yeah ... but Paul is attempting to augment the "known past" with little tidbits such as Imra's drunken "mistake" with Rokk and then that blasphemous, unethical mind-wipe after that.
This makes things a bit more interesting now.
Do I like ALL aspects of this? No, not really, but as someone mentioned above I am willing to see where Paul Levitz, who's writing I trust, takes it from here.

I haven't been able to read the issue yet, but honestly, this retcon seems fine to me. It makes sense that 15-year-old Imra would have been less principled than adult Imra about mindwiping people.

I get where you're coming from, Future King and I agree, but at the same time, IF it was a compelling story with topnotch art (we can only dream) it could be about Chlorophyl Kid, Insect Queen, and Rond Vidar, and the Legion's niche market would eat it up.

If they want to attract NEW readers, the quality matters more than the featured characters and I'm not seeing DC giving it their best game. I'm afraid the LSH will always be the bastard stepchild. If they really want to showcase the Legion to new readers they need to shell out for some real talent in the art dept. I'm a visual guy, but imho, the art is at least if not more important than the writing. Sure, Paul Levitz did some good storytelling back in the day and I'm hopeful that he'll wow us again, but the artists they've teamed him with so far are not exactly knocking the socks off anybody.

IMHO.

[snip]

You may be right about this, but I really, really hope not.

That might be a good point if this was the reboot. It's not. In a series, the writer doesn't have complete freedom to do anything he wants with the characters (at least not if he wants to write well). What can happen is constrained by what the characters have done in the past. This is especially so for flashbacks.

Yes, it's possible that Imra could do it (though one must wonder how a top student in telepathy didn't learn any ethics), But she didn't do it. We've had over fifty years that assumed she didn't do anything like that. Changing it now is like suddenly saying "and back in the Adventure era, Garth was really Proty".

I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts on this issue into words. Kudos to everyone here for being so articulate about it. I appreciate Levitz taking the time to post some of his thoughts on Facebook. I've read the story again. It's a very uncomfortable read for me. I don't like what I feel when I read it. At the same time, I am intrigued. I think Levitz wanted to make me feel uncomfortable. The fact that he was able to succeed at that has me a bit excited and hopeful.

They teach ethics in business school and we don't always see it in practice. Regardless of training, Saturn Girl could make a serious/stupid mistake - and learn from it, or overcompensate for the error in judgment. In terms of how I view her, this doesn't seem out of character.

Was she revisiting that event when she went back to Titan to her own private room and thoughts?

This retcon doesn't bother me, as a new layer to Imra's personality but I'd agree that it does raise uncomfortable (albeit interesting) questions.

We've had a few stories where Brainy goes insane with bad consequences; imagine Imra going off the deep end and messing with everyone's memories.

Story-wise, I would have preferred that the intimate relationship with Rokk had just remained on the back burner, gently boiling, for added tension. But maybe the tension will still be there.

The Imra-Garth-Supes triangle - that could be interesting; there's precedence for the attraction in the old adult Legion story and Johns did establish her attraction to Kal when they first met. Superboy has been played pretty innocent, however; more like a kid who hasn't gone beyond holding hands.

Enjoyed the story, hated the ending. Why did Paul title it "Saturn Rising?" It appeared to be more of a major tumble. Oh, and for those who claim the story contradicts John's rewrite of ADV#247 in SUPERMAN:SO #2, Brainy was merely announcing the initial voyage of the Time Bubble, it could easily be later stated that it failed, and the Time Bubble did not become fully successful until later.

Lightning Lad--Suprisingly, at this point, Garth is the only Legionnaire truly enjoying life, he is not troubled by the leadership/effective-use-of-powers issues eating at Cos or the self doubt that plagues Imra. He is merely doing what he feels is right and loving it. The cover was extremely misleading, as he evinces no jealousy at all, Garth not only twits the others of being a tabloid couple, it is at his own suggestion (confident in his own abilities) that the other two team up. The mention of Zendak was welcome (though one has to wonder what he does later to deserve a posting on Takron-Galtos), however it might have been a nice touch to team Garth with fellow Winathian, Captain Trake. The most dismaying thing Garth did was coining "The Ice Queen" tag on Imra, which he could have done to hide his true feelings for her from Rokk.

Cosmic Boy--Everyone has been mostly dumping on Imra--and not without cause. Still Rokk is hardly the mere innocent victim of a mindwipe. After a traumatic event, and assuring Imra "he is there for her," what does he do? He convinces her to go out and drink in public (something Imra probably would not have done on her own) and insteading of watching out for her, allows both of them to get so hammered they can't remember how they ended up naked in his quarters in the morning. Later (admittedly after the mindwipe) he breaks his word given only hours before, deciding to steer clear of Imra from then on. In truth, Rokk does not come off much better in this story than her.

Saturn Girl--Her mindwipe of Cos is indefensible (and perhaps even unnecessary, as she had no memory of the previous night, odds were that he didn't either, unless Rokk was the one who took advantage of her) yet under her reasonings, very characteristic of her need to protect the Legion. The fact that she does not even contemplate beginning a relationship with Rokk may be telling: what does she know about him that she won't even consider it? However unlikely, there is a slim chance that actually nothing happened (not even a kiss was actually depicted) and that the fledgling Legion might be being set up for future blackmail, as even Saturn Girl realized the security level at the Legion clubhouse was extremely lax. Perhaps, not a plausible plotline, but one many of us Legion readers would probably prefer...

The clause in parentheses negates the rest of the sentence here.

Yes, but she seems to be rationalizing it, and even if you give her the benefit of the doubt and assume it really did help protect the Legion, there was obviously a large component of personal involvement in her decision.

[snip]

Good point. I guess somebody could argue, that yeah-- that's kind of the behavior you might expect from some jocks, but it's not the kind of behavior I'd expect from Cos, in particular.

I mean, teenagers (and adults) sometimes do stupid things, but this is an awful lot of stupid to pack into one story about people who --even if they didn't have powers-- aren't supposed to be exactly like "average" teenagers.

Yes, the story absolutely portrays Rokk in a different light than I've perceived him before.

My perception of Imra is pretty much how Jimgalligher described her a couple of pages back. What bothers me most about her portrayal here is not the sex or the mind wipe, but the fact that she was struggling with feelings of inferiority to the boys. The sex and mind wipe do bother me. It's the inferiority thing that bothers me most.

By the same token, my perception of Rokk is that he was a natural born leader. In this story he shows horrible judgement. His teammate has a traumatic experience and he encourages her to get drunk and sleeps with her. That is not good leadership. It's the total opposite.

What intrigues me, however, is that Levitz has challenged my perception of both of these characters. I can't say that my perceptions truly square with how they were portrayed during the original Adventure era. To be honest, the Adventure era portrayals were sometimes inconsistent and one dimensional.

While we have all been arguing about contradictions to this era, and wondering if Paul has lost touch a little bit, he snuck up behind us and knocked Rokk and Imra off their pedestals. As a writer, he's claiming these characters as his own, whether we like it or not. I'm not sure if I like how he is doing it. However, I don't think we will get passed some of the current debates unless he does it. I hope that makes sense...

But great leaders are known for their love affairs! Julius Caesar was a great leader, but found time for three marriages plus affairs with Cleopatra VII and Eunoe of Maurentania. I think that as he gets older, Cosmic Boy calculates his risks to avoid political fallout (the reason he sticks to non-Legionnaires, IMO). But at this point there is only three members of the Legion, there isn't much he can do without the consent of Garth and Imra.

Please tell me you are joking.

If this is true, this is a horror on the level of Brainwave Jr's eradication of Lyta Trevor's memories of her parents in Infinity Inc.

I left this issue at the CBS in favor of some JLE back-issues... looks like I may have made the right choice.

OR, we can turn the joke around on Cosmic Boy, who has always been an asshat anyway, and say, "What a terrible lay he must have been to drive Imra to celibacy!"

it just seems so pointless she is married with two kids to the man who died for her. Cosmic boy has his own Problems with his love life. none of them having to do with his best friend wife. they are not 15 any more telling a story that happened when they are 15 that one of them can't remember that just lower my opinion of the two people involved

i like the pedestals,give them back. the very big thing that both the reboot and three boot were missing was strong moral values. These are SUPERMAN'S FRIENDS. the people who helped shaped a kid who was different alone and and outsider who went home every day feeling a bit crappy about himself for being weird, its all well and good that his parents told him 'you're special' but what teenager wants to hear that? most kids want to fit in. along comes kids who are just as strange and weird as he is , and they go around helping others , that they have code. Clark's friends made him want to strive to be as good as they are

i don't see how it affects anything. i could be wrong and it show up latter but why does there need to be drama between the founders, and something over something that happen years and years ago. they could have done a similar story that didn't play on that stupid triangle, for example Shadow lass joined the legion cause she had a crush on brainiac 5 why not show her getting him to go on a date and her realize that he's not what she is looking for? or all the flirting Dream and Brainy did over the years why couldn't they do a story with her and brainiy having a hook up on one of her brakeups with Star boy, Hell i would love to see a issue of Atom girl going on a date with colossus boy see why she is not interested in him and him and why he was so infatuated with her , it would have been nice to see story they implimed that Condo had crush of lyle why not an issues of having a one sided crush on lyle, or a contest of star boy and Chameleon boy trying to get the most numbers

i like the founders, but mostly when they are not in the same room, there are other legionaries lets see some issues with them

What is also funny here is how Imra immediately regrets her vow of celibacy after learning she's about to meet Kal-El! Imra wanted to jump his BONES!!!

Maybe Imra was just repressed a little too much on Titan, and those ragin' hormones were a-yearnin' to be unleashed! And if something happened with Supes, well, the consequences could have been particularly worrisome with time travel involved. Oh...right! Kal got routinely (at least partially) mind-wiped, didn't he?

Hey, someone play "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" on the space-jukebox!

I'd say, since I read it today, that there's much ado about nothing.
Does Imra even remember what happened?

Anyway, the whole issue was soooo boring.
And icky.

im upset that it could have a been a cute story about something in the legions past and it just felt like a waste of space

Maybe The Legion has a new team of super-villains : The League Of Fanatic Moralists...

My problem isn't with the tryst at all. I want to know why Imra (once again, or for the first time depending on how you look at it) takes it upon herself to decide what is best for everyone else.

I have ALWAYS hated this aspect of the character and Paul had done a great job in the new series making me actually like her.

The problem is now that he just reinforced the shameless hussy aspect of her, and this time, I doubt that much of anything will make me like her again.

As I said in a previous post, her perfectionism makes her arrogant. She thinks she knows what's best because she cannot accept any weakness on her own part and she uses her powers to circumvent weakness in others. She's on quite the little power trip and it's time she got her comeuppance. IMHO of course.