Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes JSA/JLA/Legion Crossover (spoilers)

Thicker, still. He expects Superman to know them. Well, XS, at least. Apparently, some version of Jenni knew some version of Clark.

Hmmm... why do I think that the post-Infinite Crisis DCU is going to be more confusing than the pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths one ever was?

Because it didn't solve the problem created by Crisis on Infinite Earths?

i.e too many heroes on one Earth

Was that a real problem? Too many heroes on one earth?

I just finished reading JLA # 8-10 and JSA # 1-6, which a friend loaned me. I read the "Lightning Saga" sequence a bit out of order, though -- the JLA issues first -- because it wasn't clear from the JSA covers how they tied in with rest. I also have yet to read Countdown or any other issues related to this crossover, so there are still a lot of things I don't understand, but ...

The story was a sheer delight! It revisits the classic Legion of yore, yet also launches a (mostly) successful effort to do something new and unexpected with them. Even knowing much of what was going to happen in advance (from reading these boards) didn't spoil the story for me. This was a "classic Legion" story, even if all the details didn't quite match up (and, honestly, when have they ever?).

I loved the mystery of the seventh Legionnaire, even though I already knew it was Sensor Girl. Using Triplicate Girl as a decoy was brilliant. I'm only surprised that Kal didn't notice earlier that she came from a different era than the other Legionnaires. (But then Kal also didn't notice the two Wildfire "statues" until someone else pointed them out!)

I also liked it that the Legion outsmarted both the JLA and the JSA -- in their own books, at that.

I loved the tie-in with Adventure # 312, and how the Legionnaires tried to duplicate that effort for a new goal. I thought it was very effective how the Legion's purpose gradually unfolded, yet tied in so naturally with established Legion lore.

Let's see ... Superboy/man was, in fact, a member of the Legion in this universe, but lost contact with them after "the first Crisis' (Crisis On Infinite Earths, I take it). I suppose I should be angry that so many post-Crisis stories now seem to have been discounted, but, for now, I'm just happy to see DC acknowledge that Kal-El was, in fact, a Legionnaire. (Hm. It wouldn't have something to do with a certain animated TV series, would it?)

Star Boy, er, Starman: Poor Thom. His mental deterioration is both funny and tragic. I could feel Nura's confusion and heartbreak over his condition. However, it does make his character a bit more interesting than he's ever been, in my opinion, as does the starfield mask.

People have criticized Brad Meltzer for the ending of this story (which I don't think was entirely his decision; if the Legion is to spin off into some new incarnation, some mysteries and "hooks" have to be maintained). But I thought Meltzer did an outstanding job of building suspense as the JL/SAers raced to stop the Legionnaires. Meltzer effectively jumped back and forth between scenes without confusing me. I also enjoyed the banter. (Jay Garrick: "We fought Hitler, sweetie ..." [Then, several pages later] Dream Girl: "I don't care who you've fought, sweetie. You've never faced Brainac 5.")

The various artists were extremely faithful in depicting the Legionnaires' '70s and '80s costumes. In fact, I thought the artwork overall was gorgeous and graceful, with the exception of Dawnstar and Power Girl's ridiculously exaggerated cleavage.

So, the story line isn't resolved. It also raises questions about what the Legion's been up to since Crisis. But I think it was meant to do that. More, it worked. This version of the Legion, so close to our beloved team yet subtly different, is intriguing enough for me to want to know what happens next.

And for this somewhat jaded fan who wants nothing to do with the threeboot, that's a welcome feeling.

Did it get on anyone else's nerves--the way practically every time somebody started talking--they interrupted themselves with a dash--and then went off on another train of thought?

Wildcat: "There's no--they dont' have a--they aren't real."

Flash: "I'm Wally West--I'm the fastest--I'm faster than anyone."

I may be paraphrasing here. I'm not sure I have the quotes exactly right but there are dozens of examples. I was rereading the last chapter of the story last night and found this really distracting. It reminds me of how Chris Claremont always has the speaker interrupt himself to insert the addressee's name. i.e. "Maybe that's because, Bobby, you're always late for every meeting." or "Probably, Kitty, because your power is useless."

Both these devices can be effective if used sparingly but when overused they just annoy the reader and interrupt the flow of the story. IMHO of course.

All right HWW! You summed it perfectly. I loved it and I thought it was a classic Legion story as well. Had those classic Legion elements, etc.

I didn't understand why Wally had trouble saying,"I'm the fastest man alive," either, Jim. But that was the only time it bothered me.

Thanks, Jorge.

"Classic" is the word. Meltzer and Geoff Johns did their homework (which is evident from the references to Kenz Nuhor and Karate Kid's collar having been bigger), but it's clear that they weren't strictly bound by what's gone before.

I had no idea that Orandoans have two hearts?!

This is part of what really bothers me about the depiction of Thom and Nura in the story. Thom isn't supposed to be "interesting". Classic Thom was a pretty average guy, a bit of an underachiever both by his own mistakes and by circumstances, and really a bit out of his league in the Legion. To try to turn him into some sort of tragic hero just seems completely mistaken.

Especially considering what it does with regard to his relationship with Nura. If there's one Legion relationship that shouldn't be angsty, it's theirs. Not that it's an especially healthy relationship, but it's not one that should be characterized by "confusion and heartbreak". It's fairly absurd, imo, to use Nura in a story like this and not have her flirt with somebody in either the JLA or JSA. Yet to do that while her schizo boyfriend is babbling and drooling all over the place would just make her seem like a complete bitch.

And while the mask is a nice visual, it really makes absolutely no sense. It's not like he has a secret identity to protect or anything. After all, he lives in the sanitarium, and just comes and goes as pleases (which also doesn't make a whole lot of sense... what kind of mental institution allows its patients such freedom of movement?).

"Average guy" and "dull" are two different things, Eryk, and Thom has always been a bit dull to me. In fact, the only two instances in which he stood out as a character to me were 1) when he killed Kenz Nuhor, and 2) when he left the Legion and Nura to become planetary champion of Xanthu. Both stories had an element of tragedy, I suppose, but they also showed Thom being his own person, whatever the consequences.

I think Dream Girl should be characterized by more than just flirting with men. Here she came off as smart, savvy, and compassionate. You're right: It would have been inappropriate for her to flirt with other men after seeing Thom's condition, and that's probably why she didn't do it.

You make a good point about the starfield mask, but when have Legion costumes ever been practical? What purpose did Lyle's headband serve?

As for the sanitarium allowing Thom to come and go as he pleases, they probably knew there wasn't much they could do to restrain a superhero. Recognizing that he probably wasn't a danger to himself or others, they chose to help him under his own terms.

I tend to think so. Before Crisis, you had the Justice League and the Justice Society being the premiere group on their respective Earths responding to planetary threats. In the one Earth DC Universe, why wouldn't the JSA respond to a planetary threat occurring in Justice League and vice versa?

Similarly having Superman and Catian Marvel on One Earth lessens them both. Before there was the concern about what if Superman goes rogue or can't handle a threat. Now if Superman goes rogue, you can just get Captain Marvel to take him down.

The thing about Dream Girl, at least as I see her, is that while she's incredibly smart, skilled, and competent, she's also incredibly vain, self-centered, and egotistical. I don't really see as being strongly characterized as "compassionate", and I especially don't see her relationship with Thom in those terms. I've always read it that Thom eventually realized how one-sided their relationship was (in that he was devoted to her in a way that she couldn't be to him), and walked away from both her and the Legion (which he was really only a member of to satisfy her).

What I mean by saying that Thom is not a "tragic hero" is that while he is a character that has faced various setbacks and adversities, I don't really see him as characterized as overcoming those adversities. When he makes a mistake and gets kicked out of the Legion, he doesn't go on to make up for that mistake and save the day or something. Instead, he sees it as kind of a blessing-in-disguise, as it gives him the chance to spend more time with Nura. As far as I can tell, he would've been more happy to hang out with the Subs for the rest of his career, if Nura hadn't pressured him into rejoining the Legion. And, overall, his career as a Legionnaire was pretty undistinguished, until he eventually quits when the excuse arises. To suddenly add in this notion that he has a disability, and he's constantly playing super-hero in spite of this disability, just seems to add something to the character that makes him something very different than what he used to be. Whether it makes him "more interesting" or not, it makes him a very different kind of character.

It's been a long time since I've read those stories, but I didn't pick up any of this. A point was made in Adventure # 342 that Thom's career would be ruined if he were kicked out of the Legion, and he didn't seem to want to go. Being expelled was a devastating blow to him, and one that was only mitigated somewhat by Nura and the Subs.

Joining the Subs after being a Legionnaire must have been like being demoted from playing in the major leagues to playing on a college team. Thom made the best of it, and it's to his credit that he took advantage of the opportunity he was given. He did, as you say, find a blessing in disguise. That's a very mature and heroic thing for anyone to do.

Did Thom enjoy being a Sub? Sure. He says so, when he relates his story in LSH # 306. But that enjoyment came after he had already been thrown out of the Legion. It should not be taken as an indication that he wanted to be thrown out or didn’t care about being a Legionnaire.

I also never got the notion that Dream Girl pressured him into rejoining the Legion. I think this is so much fan interpretation after the fact. In the actual story, Adventure # 351, Thom helps Nura infiltrate the Legion so she can find her missing sister. Even after they reveal their identities, it's clear that Thom never expected to remain with the Legion. He and Nura start to leave when Invisible Kid calls them back and invites them to stay.

So, I humbly disagree, Eryk. Thom did go out and save the day: It just took him six months and an unexpected opportunity to do so – and even then, he did so selflessly (to help Nura find her sister), not for personal glory. (An interesting thought just hit me: Had Thom gone out immediately to capture the Time Trapper or done something similar and prove his worth, he would have been making the same kind of mistake that got Hank Pym thrown out of the Avengers. Hank acted selfishly; Thom acted selflessly. There’s a big difference.)

Also, if Thom is an “average guy,” then that must be understood as a relative term. All of the Legionnaires are exceptionally bright, smart, tough, and tenacious. They would have to be in order to survive as heroes for so long. That Thom made mistakes or led an “undistinguished” Legion career only shows that he was human, but still of a higher caliber than most “average guys.”

I agree that Starman's mask needs to go. And Invisible Kid's headband kept sweat from dripping into his eyes.

I want Thom to be cured. His ramblings may be amusing for awhile, but I want the old Thom back. Maybe the schizophrenia explains why he was such a bland Legionnaire. Or maybe his powers just aren't that versatile. I think he should have Light Lass's powers as well and give her the light powers she had in Superboy's Legion.

Nura, like most people and well-rounded characters, probably has different sides to her personality that come out under different circumstances. For example, n spite of her vanity, Nura was never portrayed as an incompetent or self-serving Legionnaire on missions. She was always focussed on doing the job, which is how she's portrayed in "The Lightning Saga." There's a sense of some urgency involved, which leaves her little time to act vain or flirt.

I could be wrong, but I think much of the idea of her using Thom comes from Atmos' manipulation of her. While it is probably true that Nura was the dominant personality in her relationship with Thom, that doesn't mean she didn't love him.

Then Lyle must have sweat more than any other Legionnaire.

I almost missed the reference in the story about Thom being schizophrenic. I thought his condition was just a by-product of having witnessed the former multiverse (which he seems to allude to). Frankly, I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of Thom always having had a serious illness. Many famous people and world leaders keep similar conditions secret for years (FDR and polio, for one example). I'll have to wait and see how it plays out for Thom.

I did like his decision to remain in the 21st century, though. That seemed to be in keeping with his acting independently in the Nuhor and Xanthu stories, as I mentioned above.

Nura just was stuck in an insane asylum for god knows how long being tortured. She was also part of a very important mission.

I can't imagine her flirting. I just read the GDS and when she noticed things were really serious she was all business. Levitz did a good job with her in the Universo baxter arc.

You raise a very interesting point, Jorge. I don't know how long Nura was trapped in Arkham Asylum, but she appeared to be utterly at Dr. Destiny's mercy. One can't help but wonder just how far his torture went ...

Jim,

In Justice Society of America #2, Thom loses control of his powers when the body of Mr America falls into their meeting room. Gravity basically turns off around everyone for a few moments. Thom says he's uncomfortable around murder, and that his powers aren't supposed to work this way.

So Geoff has indicated Thom can actually decrease gravity as well as increase it... I guess we'll have to see if he uses this ability again.

Thanks, OC.

Is this homage? In "Golden Age" graphic novel about post WWII heroes (alternate timeline sort of thing), Robinson wrote Starman as being a bit nutty. I can't recall the reason behind it.

Starboy I don't recall as ever having "mental" problems, other than being a bit clueless. I never read Starman or JSA before Geoff Johns. Is mental illness part of the Starman legacy?

Clumsiness yes....brain damage no.

No there was no mention of the Danny Blaine character being nuts. Ted Knight did have a stint in the rest home back in the 50s in Robinson's series, which is inevitably where time travelling heroes from the present go to find him.

But if I read Nura et al's dialogue right, Johns and Meltzer have retconned into Thom's entire silver and bronze age history that he was on really good future anti-psychotics.

Just wait until Meltzer scripts the untold silver age story of what happened in the upside down rocket ship (and why we never saw that girlfriend of Thom's from his first appearance again) in "Prescription Crisis" (seven issues) where Thom loses his meds because the Legion's HMO dropped psychiatric care from their plan.

On the plus side of this, the implication is that by the 31st century schizophrenia will be a completely manageable disease that shouldn't interfere with Thom's role as a Legionnaire. Although it's unrevealed in the dialogue how often he would have to take his meds, this must not have been a serious consideration. After all, Mon-El had to take his anti-lead serum every 24 to 48 hours.