Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Levitz confirms who will join

I nevber said you did, nor do I think anyone else said that either.

You shouldn't apologize for loving your God. You should go on loving your God. However, don't presume your God matters to everyone else and be prepared to face some one who is offended when you act like He does.

Actually, Shady, I was going to clarify my motivations for supporting Christians in my prior post, and your comment has prompted me to do so.

You see, at an earlier point in my life I was extremely anti-Christianic because I blamed this group for all harms inflicted upon Fist Nations people, when I really should have been angry at the specific idividuals who did so. Once I let go of my intense anger I began to realize that western societies often tend to stigmatize Christians and "white" people in general when they publicly manifest their faith and culture.

Nowadays, thankfully, this just doesn't seen fair to me, especally in light of the fact that I'm not only socially permitted but encouraged (generally) to proudly display my own non-Christian beliefs and cultural ways. In fact, I now can't help but notice that many non-Christians and people of colour bristle when white people pray to Christ or God.

Again, this just doesn't seem fair to me; after all, if an atheist can express themselves, then why isn't it okay for Christians and non-minority persons to be able to express their points-of-view, too (so long as they do so in a respectful, non-hostile manner)? In fact, I'll go one step further and say that I've truly come to admire enlightened Christians who value the sharing of love, and think that the world is a better place for having them here.

On the other hand, I feel just as strongly about enlightened atheists who are critical thinkers and true humanists. Indeed, I can understand to some degree the fear of oppression that drives some of their misgivings about Christian individuals who potentialy might seek to imopse ther will on others in Gods name. In other words, I support Iam Legion just as firmly, and don't wish to suppress his voice either.

Quite simply, what I most dearly want is for us all to get along, as I hate it when the good guys fight with one another, plain and simple. So, please, do retain your differing points of view, my friends, but also try to remember at the end of the day that most of us on this board are decent people despite our varied philosophical/existential underpinnings. That's all I'm really trying to say, and truly am not trying to stifle respectful debate.

Again, peace (sorry for pontificating a bit myself, but I obviously truly don't like seeing decent people battling one another, which i fear could happen if we don't strive to ensure that our tones remain somewhat genteel).

Candle expressed an aspect of her beliefs. So has Iam Legion, quite clearly.

The problem I see here, is if this board starts removing any post that contains anything that might upset anyone...this place will be dead in no time. Censorship is a slippery slope, and one that needs to be seriously thought about before being applied.

But that's just one persons opinion.

She presumed nothing, Iam. She simply made a statement. You are the one who is presuming that she is directing it at you, preaching to you.

Nothing she posted has warranted ANY of this drama from you.

Thanks, Mediocre Lad.
And, well, Jesus is from the middle east, so He's not really a 'white guy', at all.
But, I know what you mean about intolerance and the pain that it's brought people.

And, I'm not arguing with IAM Legion.

He wants me straight jacketed, not the other way around.

I didn't say he, or anyone, had to be anything.
I just said that everyone has access, if they want it.

The question that I would pose to you is this. Honestly. If I do not share your belief system, and found your statement here offensive to me (not saying that I actually do find it offensive or not), should I shout that I want it removed as well?

Where does it end? Who is the one person that decides what gets deleted or not in regards to things like this, and how does that persons own beliefs not come into play in their decisions? That is scarier to me than hearing anyone say something that they truly believe about their religion, or lack thereof.

Iam Legion, please also consider this: Candle's comment came BEFORE you posted regarding this subject.

You've made your point, and I think we all agree with you that forcing one's beliefs on others should not be tolerated here.

Yet, that DID NOT HAPPEN. Candle has repeatedly explained herself on this thread.

None of the other posters who've commented feel that she was proselytizing in any way.

Perhaps now it is time to move on. Why sustain an argument, when there really was none in the first place?

Sorry, Shady, I didn't mean to say that Christ was white, but rather, that many non-Christians tend to think of Christity as being inimately associated with past oppressions inflicted by white people, rather than blaming individuals who just happened to be both white and Christian.

And I do, of course, pefectly understand that you weren't trying to convert Iam Legion, but simply saying that God loves everyone and that your particular way of belief can be accessed by one and all if they wish.

But even though I support you specificaly and enlightened Christians in general, I nonetheless do understand the fear of enforced social role-modeling that has prompted Iam Legion to react somewhat aversely to your posts for some reason, even if I think he is seeing a problem where none really exists in this instance.

If nothing else, gay people have historically always been historicall outnumbered and forced to remain in the closet, while until recent times those Christians with an anti-homosexual agenda have been able to push their views quite freely. Bu again I say, I'm utterly sure that this is not what's happening here.

I guess this is why some message boards (I'm looking at you, MARVEL) prohibit any discussion of religion, period.

I'm glad these boards don't have that rule.

My take on what Candle said was not that she was saddened because all of Silver Age Lad's homosexual acquaintances were not Christians and "should" be. Rather, what broke her heart (and as a fellow Christian it also breaks mine) is the fact that many "Christians" have unlovingly created barriers that cause gay folks (or anyone, for that matter) to feel excluded should they desire to seek God through Christ. If Candle was "preaching" to anyone with her statement, it was more likely to graceless Christians.

That said, I know what it's like to have people think they know what's best for me and dismiss my ability to think for myself. I don't put up with those folks for long, and sometimes I preconceive all "those folks" as being of the same mindset. In this case, I wonder if you've not judged Candle's words and intent based on previous encounters with others. Iam, from what I've seen of Candle on this board, I believe she has more respect for you and your views, and more insight into your perspective, than you may realize. That's not to say that she, or any of us, may not sometimes say things differently than we mean. Or maybe we really are wrong and need to be challenged.

And that said, Iam, your speaking up about your perspective on this is a good thing. It helps us all think more deeply about our beliefs and our words.

It always saddens me when someone here feels disrespected or disregarded because of their viewpoints. However, I'm really quite impressed, but not surprised, at the quality of thought and respect, straightforward though it may be, that this group brings to these interactions.

Candlelight

It is not that the homosexuals I know are any different to the majority of people I know. The truth is that far more people in the UK (and Europe in general) have looked as religion and decided it is all fantasy.

Don't feel sorry for athiests. Athiests like me look at people like yourself and think what a shame you waste your life worshipping a fictitious entity.

But hey we all live our own lives and as long as we respect each other and our rights to believe what we believe then there is no problem. Respect is everything.

Honestly, I am less about making it 'go away' once it has appeared than I am about making people think about how they often dump their own beliefs all over other people, expecting them to appreciate it and be grateful for it without realizing how pompous and condenscending they can sound to the other person(s) when they do that.

Really? Because that is not my take on it at all. Let's take another look and maybe you can point out where I went astray:
Silver Age Lad said -
To which MLLASH replied -
Which I took to mean MLLASH is Gay, and a Christian. Then Candlelight responded to Silver Age Lad and MLLASH, saying -
Which I took to mean that Silver Age Lad knowing homosexuals, but none that were Christian, upset her greatly. And then she continued -
Which I took to mean that she believes that everyone should be exposed to, and believe in the Love and Hope of her God. Then she finished with -
Which I took to mean she is pleased that Michael (MLLASH) is a Christain (as well as a Homosexual) and that she wishes others (that are Homosexual or not) would also be Christian like him. From that, I could only draw the conclusion that she places her beliefs above those of others and would see them change to suit her prefferences, and THAT is what offends me.
So, at which point did I incorectly 'take' her statement?

Just so it won't come up and be an issue later, I feel compelled to share that I also worship fictitious entities (who take absolutely no offence at being considered such), just not the same one as Candlelight.
So, I wonder if you could help me with a small problem.... I have a customer that wants good book on Atheism, but all the titles I have checked into aquiring for him are written from one extreme (why everyone should be) or the other (why they will all burn in Hell). I am not familiar (other than extreme generalities) with Atheism or authors on the subject, could you recommend a good, unbiased, generally informative book about it?

[snip]

I might be with you here, if Candle were the kind of person who brought God and religion into every post she made, regardless of its relevance to the topic at hand.

Unless you count some of the sig lines she's used, I don't really see this happening on the LMB. The same goes for other regular posters who have said they are devoutly Christian.

Actually, YES. Some of those signature lines did bother me and deffinately established a pattern of 'hitting one over the head with it' for her (in my mind anyway). That is largely why this latest statement just really, really upset me.

I don't think anyone should be restricted as to what they can have in their sig line, so long as it's not in violation of the posting terms we all agreed to when we joined.

If I decided to put a quote from a famous Atheist in my sig line, I would be pretty shocked if people considered that to be "hitting them on their heads" with my life's philosophy.

Right now I have a link to a Joan Jett song in my sig line, because I got treated shabbily not too long ago by some RL so-called friends. Am I hitting people over the head with Joan Jett?

Honestly, I am less about making it 'go away' once it has appeared than I am about making people think about how they often dump their own beliefs all over other people, expecting them to appreciate it and be grateful for it without realizing how pompous and condenscending they can sound to the other person(s) when they do that.[/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But that is not what you said...Quoted from you"

So, yes...you were all about making it 'go away.'

Don't backtarack on your stance.

Again, if I find your blanket statement dismissing any deity as fictional offensive because of my beliefs...should I demand that it be changed? I don't personally have any issue with people bringing up what they believe...because I know that not everyone agrees...that's life.

You are projecting your beliefs and biases on what Candle wrote without asking her at all what her intention was.

I don't think billions have been murdered and persecuted in the name of Joan Jett, but you probably have a point.

Sorry, wasn't being clear there. Not backtracking my statement, just admitting it was a knee-jerk reaction and wrong.

That's cool. Thanks for clarifying that.

A further clarification: I didn't intend my statement to Silver Age to mean all dieties were fictional... just that mine don't particularly care that anyone else thinks they are.

Last question from me on this then.

If you made statements that you say meant other things, or at least should have been interpreted a different way than they came across...could you not have extend the same courtesy to Candle, and asked her to clarify as well instead of such a drastic response?

I wholeheartedly agree with Dev-em. I think this is an excellent post.

Iam Legion, don't you think the last few posts on this subject have been much more refreshing to read, and conducive to intelligent discussion?

I understand if you were offended, and you would want to say so, but from experience you are much more likely to be listened to, and to get what you want, when you respond calmly.

I'm with Dev and IB.

Iam, I appreciate your questions after my earlier post, and I've been thinking through an answer, but I'm not sure it's helpful to go there in the end, at least via this forum. Maybe if we were sitting together over a cup of coffee, or if you wanna PM. I will say that I see exactly how you came to the understanding you did. But I think it would have been better to ask Candle what she meant than to react.

Of course, the rest of us always do that.
;-)