Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes 15 years later - Rereading the Reboot...

Magno Ball IS a team sport. Of the founders, Cos was the only one with team experience. LL didn't get along with anyone and SG was an outcast.

Well, it wasn't always played up as perhaps it should have been, but Triad & Apparition were a LOT closer to the founders in their joining up than they were to the draftees, and Lu even mentions that they (the five of them) "voted" Cos leader early in LSH #62.

Cosmic Boy certainly was the obvious vote of the Starting Five. That does not mean that he's a natural leader - remember in school, the class representative was often not the most able, but the most popular guy/girl in class...

Read the next four issues today - entertaining again, though not spectacular. The Legion Annual was one of those annuals that could have been left out, telling only back stories and featuring some decent, but also some horrible artwork. The battle against the Composite Legionnaire was thrilling, though the Durlans motivation to come after Reep Daggle of all people after years of confinement was not really well written. I had totally forgotten about Saturn Girl going mad after that storyline - I thought that was much later. Moders art was very inconsistent, some facial expressions were great, some long shots were awful.

What I liked most was Andromedas characterisation. Her xenophobia being in conflict with her duties as a Legionnaire made her character fun, I can't remember how this thread ended so I'm excited to see it now that the White Triangle storyline is heating up. I also have to say that there is much more happening in just a few issues of the Reboot than in a whole year of WaK ten years later. Also, characterisation is often simple, but it is there which I felt could not be said about most of the Threeboot Legionnaires.

Still entertaining!

I liked Andromeda's as a xenophobe, too, because it was unprecedented for a Legionnaire. Even in the 30th century, one might expect to find enclaves, societies, and even worlds in which fear of others is still common. Laurel's views provided conflict and mirrored very real and ugly tensions that still exist in our own "enlightened" society.

Sadly, the arc turns out pretty badly for Laurel. However, her later conversion to a nun makes sense in light of this arc.

(snip)

You should bump the last Threeboot thread and expand on this, if you haven't already. It's an important note, and might explain some of the hostility that version gets from a lot of fans I encounter.

I think this sentiment emerged at the time in terms of how dystopian that future was. Perhaps we can revisit it when someone decides to reread the 3boot....

The reboot, on the other hand, presented a fairly bright future. Everything worked. There was no shortage of evil, but the essential structure of the society and most of the participants were sound and functioning. The Legion characters themselves were often shown having fun and particular introductions, such as Gates, were given lots of comic dialogue. Monstress also tended to be played for comedic effect.

I disagree that the threeboot future was a dystopia. It was a stable, prosperous society. It had its problems, to be sure, but name a society that doesn't.

If you mean name a society TODAY or in history that doesn't, well that's the whole point isn't it?

Point taken though, is that utopian and dystopian are thrown out so much by Legion fans but I'm not really sure what they consider to be utopian/dystopian on a personal level.

Even reading the ADV Legion, the words "perfect society" never came to my mind. To me it had many of the things that felt wrong to me about MY world, stereotypes and bigots.

What was hopeful to me was the general getting along of the teens. It was a club for good.

5YL obviously was meant to start out not hopeful and I was actually nervous about a freeking comic book but when the club started coming together I think that was the most exciting time for me in the entirety of the Legion run.

Reboot: hopeful

Threeboot: not hopeful, in fact the premise was about conflict.

That's MY take on the various versions.

Possibly that's one of the things that put some fans off. Wham! Right out of the gate, you get: We live in prosperity and peace and we're so sick of it we could scream. Some readers were sitting there from Day One thinking, "Whoa! You've got one Hell of a fantastic life, People, and yet all you can do with it is fight, screw and complain!"

Which wasn't my reaction, personally, but I'm weird. (And I'd be curious to know how many fans who had that reaction are, or want to be, parents. Since that reaction is very much in line with what the protagonists are supposed to be opposing; readers should have been seeing through the eyes of "the kids," but ended up seeing through the eyes of "the parents," instead.)

Oh, and since this thread is technically about the Reboot... I only know it through segments I've been able to read online, so there's not much I can add there for now.

However:

I am inordinately amused at how many people complain because Projectra was re-envisioned as a snake. Yet, (if I remember some of the online pages I've seen correctly; feel free to whack me with a mallet if I'm wrong) this was the same take that had Cham's people's default form as essentially a giant breathing pyramid of shoestring potatoes-- and I have yet to hear anyone complain about that.

So, Today's lesson is: If you have to choose between bringing home a giant she-snake vs. a giant gender-neutral serving of sentient hashbrowns to meet your folks: Go with the hashbrowns.

(Will this be on the exam?)

The analogy doesn't hold up in this case I think, Cleome. Reasons behind Cham's form and the different default forms in durlan society were based upon good storylines. Sneckies wasn't even based at all.

HE thought that he would not have been accepted in non-human form and he had an alien look, which appeals to readers of science fiction. Snakes in space? Not so much.

There really wasn't a reason behind the snake. It seemed to me, a writer's attempt to "shock," which instead had the fanbase scratching their heads and Projectra fans offended. When the servant racoons showed up, well that was just jumping the shark. Perhaps there is some fairy tale somewhere upon which this was being based that would have led to some credibility. If so, it was not common knowledge and still isn't.

I think if a form had been chosen, which was stereotypically associated with illusion, maybe it would have worked, but still I doubt it.

A snake with robot arms. What were they thinking.

(snip)

Okay, okay. Point taken. Though when I saw human Projectra as the illusion, I was more amused than offended. I always liked the idea of there being more non-humanoids getting the spotlight in stories. If nobody tried to ground the character change with some kind of reasoning, that's too bad. Then again, specious (no pun intended) reasoning abounds in "soft" SciFi when it comes to even human-appearing characters, their origin and powers, so I'm stil not sure it would bother me.

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I think if a form had been chosen, which was stereotypically associated with illusion, maybe it would have worked, but still I doubt it.

Well, snakes have historically been part of mysticism and conjuring acts. Might make an interesting story, actually. But I'm not versed enough in the Reboot to write it, unfortunately.

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A snake with robot arms. What were they thinking?

Well, she wanted to make her way in a world that wasn't set up for "people" like her. Much like Tellus had one boot ago. That by itself would probably hold my interest for at least a little while.

The thing is, Tellus was truly alien, Jecka was a snake. A big snake, mind you, but still a snake. It's lacking something in originality.

That's why I always felt there was a missing issue or something. The snake thing, the racoons, it was all too... unexplained. Even that issue I think was hindsight in response to complaints though I may have my timeline mixed up.

If they'd taken a snake as an original character, it might have worked, even with the mechanical arms. However, one still had images of Projectra - the history and powers were almost identical - confused with the snake and it was jarring.

My other problem with the snake was that she was so sweet. If she'd had more of a reptilian mind, as we understand it, it could have worked better for me. However, it's generally accepted that truly alien minds/characters don't work for people - we need a large human hook to catch onto. The most alien of the Legion characters - Tellus, Quislet - were used to some degree as critics of human/humanoid society. Jecka the Snake didn't fulfill that role; she fit right in. The only criticism she levelled was at her own society, which was straight out of Earth history - the oppressive rulers of a mistreated underclass, extracting resources under bad working conditions.

And certainly Gates.

I totally agree. Send Princess Projectra back to Orando to rule her world, then introduce Cobra Lass from Serpentine as a NEW Legionnaire. The mindset that many Legionnaires had to be retconned was an idea that failed time and again, and a big reason why the reboots failed every time. Need a snake, introduce a NEW character. Need a mute or a kid on the team, introduce new characters and leave Saturn Girl and Invisible Kid alone.

Those characters like Sneckie are those I dread now that I'm through with "White Triangle" and know that there is lots of crap along the road: Coco the Monkey. Lori Morning. Snake Projectra. Monstress.

I remember that I felt that the book was starting to gain some momentum with White Triangle back in 94/95, but it went downhill after that storyline.

White Triangle was entertaining, with some great moments like the destruction of Trom and the death of Tinya (cheapened later, of course, by her resurrection). It was a little bit too hard on the Black & White side, meaning there was hardly any shades of grey, just good versus evil - which was true for most parts of the Reboot. It did not suffice that the Daxamites were hate-mongers to begin with - no, they had to be turned into lunatics by the lead-serum to make them even more evil. But for the most parts, White Triangle was quite good, though not outstanding. It was the first real storyarc - not just a two-parter like most of the Reboot stories before. It had built up slowly and went down with a bang.

What I relived though now reading it again was that the writing felt terribly rushed. Two examples: Kinetix has hardly joined, than looses her powers in a minor scene in the annual, and is leaving again, playing no part in White Triangle at all. Huh?

Then the relationship between Jo and Tinya. Well, there's love at first sight, that's nice. But then, after hardly having talked to each other more than twice, they already start behaving like an old married couple, bickering. And Tinyas mother is behaving as if they would have secretly married, though there was hardly more than a secret date happening.

Not to mention the healing of Saturn Girl: She has grown mad after entering a Durlan mind. Okay. And after the skilled Telepath Avon tried to heal her in vain, all she needs is Garth - whom she showed no sign of being in love with before - coming to her bed and tataaaaa, her mental health is restored! Now how did that happen?

As I already mentioned before, it's simplistic storytelling like this that cheapens the Reboot. It's a fun read, but it lacks any depth. I like the way characters like Violet, Brainy or Gim are developing, but too often, the plot is just too simple to really be memorable. That's probably the reason that I actually don't remembered any plotline of the Reboot except for White Triangle - and that one I also did only recollect in some parts (I did NOT remember the destruction of Trom - total surprise).

So that was the first year of the Reboot. Not as bad as I thought back in 1994, but certainly not a milestone in Legion history. Along the horizon in the second year: CROSSOVERS (*shudder*) with the 20th century...... Superboy and Underworld Unleashed. Let's see how long this reread keeps on entertaining me...

I kinda skipped the reboot, having only read a few of the books, but when I first heard about a snake-Jectra and some maltreated raccoon servants, my first thought was of that lady from V who deep-throated a guinea pig (the sneckies keep them around to *eat!*) and the second thought was of what sort of clueless writer would choose to represent a slave race with sentient 'coons. It's like, 'wow.'

It would have been vastly more interesting if humanoid Projectra be tied into some Orandan mythology about a serpent-cult, and then retire to Orando only to be replaced on the team by a member of the subterranean 'secret race of illusionist sepent-folk' who originally taught the humanoid settlers their tricks of illusion in exchange for sharing Orando peacefully (with the humans on the surface, which the snakes never used anyway, and the snakes working underground, into which the humans of non-royal blood where forbidden to tread).

Orando gains a second sentient species, one that predates human arrival on the planet, and we've got a connection between the illusion powers of Projectra and the new snake-thing that shows up to take her place, as a representative of a species that has never before left their homeworld and has diplomatic status with the UP, as she is negotiating for her people to also be UP members (even if her *planet* already technically is a member!).

And why would she come out of hiding and the race declare itself now? Perhaps there is some danger below Orando that they cannot handle on their own, and, swallowing a thousand generations of self-sufficient pride, they have realized that they need to ask for help from the outside world (with human-Projectra having perhaps gone below ground to live among the serpents as a sort of 'hostage' for the safety of their own snake-princess, who has left the safety of the warrens to travel to entreat the UP for aid).

Boom. All tied together, with both a human Projectra still on Orando and a new snake-Jectra on the team, and a built-in plotline as the Legion is called upon to deal with whatever is lurking under Orando, threatening the snake-people (and, perhaps, the universe?). Once that plotline is dealt with, human Projectra can state that she must remain on Orando to deal with affairs of state, that her people have grown too accustomed to her being on-planet and that she has been reminded of the responsibilities that she had been shirking as a Legionnaire, and snake-Jectra will surprise her own insular people by saying that she *likes* being out of the warrens and out in the universe, and that she will remain the Ambassador to the Orandoss. Projectra deputizes her as Ambassador to *both* Orandan races (which may annoy some of the humanoid Orandans...), and the series continues with Snake-Jectra on the team (and with a 'princess' like status, due to her Ambassodorial mission), and Humanoid-Jectra back on Orando doing the Queen thing.

CK''s description makes me think that the term Archie Legion is appropriate in more ways than one. Not only was Jeff Moy's art Archie-esque, but it sounds like the rushed, simplistic storytelling was also intended to reach the same type of audience: young, wholesome, uncomplicated. That could also explain why the "futuristic" setting seemed so retro.

DC probably didn't count on (or care) about us old-time Legion vets analyzing and dissecting the stories upon their publication, let alone a decade and a half after the fact.

They were clearly going for more light-hearted entertainment after the complex and multi-hued storytelling of 5YL. In The Legion Companion, editor KC Carlson said that the Legion had grown quite "ponderous" (his term) during 5YL with all the families, adult characters, subplots, etc. It sounds like the reboot was intended to be a complete 180-degree spin, so we have love at first sight (Jo/Tinya), love conquers all (Imra/Garth), and a snake with robot arms. Just the kind of things one might expect to find in an Archie comic (at least as I remember Archie comics being).

Yet for all the buzz about starting over, the creative teams or DC editorial still felt it necessary to bring back virtually all of the hallmark Legion characters, both heroes and villains, albeit in changed form. Were they trying to stradle the fence, pull in the new kids and appease the older fans? I guess we'll never know, but one memory that stands out is how characters kept being shoved off stage to make room for new additions: Kinetix, as CK noted, but also Garth getting expelled then recovering from losing his arm, etc. Then, of course, the team split into two: Team 20 and Team 30, which conveniently put 1,000 years between them.

The rapid-fire plots and subplots may also have been attempt to appeal to kids these days, who, some have argued, have shorter attention spans and prefer to read something exciting on every page, if they read at all. I don't know if this is true; however, two years ago, I brought in some Legion comics to the middle school ESL students I was tutoring. By far, they preferred the reboot issues (the "Time and Time Again" story, which CK is about to read) to the 1960s Adventure issues. Of course, it must be said that kids in the 1960s didn't have '90s-style comics to choose from. Still, it sounds as if the reboot was intended to capture kids who had so many other forms of entertainment to choose from.

I bet the "love at first sight" was a consequence of "Everyone already knows it's going to happen..." One of the problems of telling a story twice: hurrying to get to the parts you want.
Again, I think history's the cause. New characters have been a tough sell since about 1970, so writers seem more willing to do new versions of old characters. I would question if this principle is as valid for a team book, particularly one with little non-fan appeal. At least in the specific case of the Legion, it didn't work. Fans took entirely new characters better than new versions of old ones.

And I'm the complete freak there, in that I would much rather read about new characters, or, older characters that have grown and changed and adopted new roles, rather than the unchanging 'iconic' brand characters that can't so much as change their costume without it being an intellectual property / branding issue.

Roy Harper gone on to become Arsenal, and Oliver Queen retired? Bring it on. Hal Jordan dead and Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern? Yes, please.

A new generation of Legionnaires, with 'old faces' like Laurel Kent, Lamprey, Nightwind, Crystal Kid, etc. and some new faces, with the old guard either semi-retired or off-Earth completely dealing with more cosmic matters, having expanded the Legion to an real *Legion*, and the current roster being just the newly formed 'Earth sector branch?' Hell yeah.

I'd *so* much prefer that than yet another rehashing of the Saturn Girl / Lightning Lad relationship, or more drama about Rokk's leadership issues, or Brainy's inevitable decline into insanity, or whatever. I'd much rather have the Garth and Imra I grew up with be happy somewhere off-panel, perhaps active as part of a larger team, perhaps retired and raising Graym, than to see them breaking up or having freaky sexcapades with Ultra Boy, or having their kid(s) (and their marriage, like Peter and MJs) retconned out of existence to make them 'fresh' again.

But no, the cosmic reset button must be mashed, not because the readers fear change (the success of even more recent titles like the Runaways, Young Avengers or Thunderbolts, who introduced brand new teams of characters, instead of member 26 of the Bat-family or Wolverine clone 175, prove that), but because the editors fear 'trying something new' and want to desperately strip any sort of growth or development or maturization out of 'iconic' brand characters like Spiderman or Superman, rather than risk doing something *interesting.*

And so Mekt has to go back to being completely psychotic, abandoning decades of writing and characterization and development, so that Geoff 'ooh, aren't I special' Johns can retcon him into a googly-eyed man-crushing Superboy-Prime-worshipping member of the Legion of Prime Fanbois. Does Johns even know that Mekt got over his issues and was a productive member of society? Why the fear of allowing a character to grow and change?

[And what better way to cement a potential message that a character like Prime *could* be redeemed, than by showing that a former villain *can* get out of that life! But no, Johns has undercut his own premise by proving that *nothing* Prime does will matter, since he will just be made a villain again the cold second that some writer wants to use him as one. Any message of hope for redemption is *proven* meaningless by Johns own choice to use the already redeemed Mekt as an irredeemable villain.]

A fear of introducing new characters doesn't synergize well in an industry that *also* fears doing anything that hasn't already been done before with the pre-existing characters. It's just reprinting the same stories, over and over, with new creative teams.

Everything new is old again. You have a new clone body Charles Xavier? Well, the wheelchair is iconic, so we're gonna have to break your back. Nice new threads Spiderman, very sleek and new, too bad your new costume is evil! Able to control your powers, Scott Summers? That won't last. Nice new beard, Thor, and I like the armor! Oh, never mind. No more beard, no more armor. Hey, check it out, Aquaman has a hand again! And Oliver Queen is back! And Hal Jordan! And Barry Allen! And Bucky! (Bucky? Seriously?)

Meh. The industry is dying, and it's got nothing to do with a failure on the part of the audience. I blame it completely on reactionary misteps by the companies, desperately trying to reset the clocks and make all of their characters exactly the same as they were the last time they were profitable, as *going backwards* will somehow save them from obsolescence.

Well said, Set. I also would prefer a "next generation" Legion to a constant restart. I think the only book that manages to do so - sometimes - is JSA, where actually the first generation has mostly stepped aside or even died (and stayed dead). This approach would be much more epic than the fourth or fifth attempt to tell the same story with an oh-so-original new twist...

As for new twists: Read about seven issues today, and mostly what I got was retellings of classic stories: Lightning Lad losing his arm, Dr. Regulus creating Sun Boy, Mon-El being rescued from the Phantom, sorry, Stasis Zone. Hm. Though still entertaining, the constant reestablishing of stories that would not have to be reestablished if someone had not just erased them all instead of thinking of a better idea to salvage Legion Lore in the first place is somewhat annoying. Also, the crossover with Superboy was rather weak, mostly due to the lame villain Scavenger they had to fight. And Superboy boing a punk, obviously

What I also thought was rather unlogical was not to fill up the ranks of the Legion after their number was down to ten (with members like Lyle or Luronu not actually being power players). The president preventing strong members like Ultra Boy and Element Lad to join - rather silly. Or is this already part of the lukewarm Chu conspiracy I seem quietly to remember?

What I also observed was how quick I got through all these issues. Ten minutes, maybe 15 and another issue was done. By comparision, it took me about half an hour to work through the average issue of 5YL - and I liked that... more entertainment for your money... and by the way, as for He Who Wanders' school experiment: I also would guess that they like the newer issues better... there is far less text in it than in an average Silver Age book.

By the way, another example for rushed storywriting: It took Garth months to finally start to search for his brother. That was rather well written. Now he starts and tataaa, one issue later he has already found him. Now that was obviously not all thet difficult...

Also, the reboot books look better and that means something to teens. Modernize the ADV books, same exact story in the same number of issues but with updated dialogue, glossy paper and the newer art style and I'm betting the contest swings the other way.

"New generation" with new faces would be my preference, if not a return to a previous incarnation. Legion in 4009 instead of Legion replacements has a certain attraction to me.

Sooner or later I suppose, which legion are they descended from would come up, probably sooner. Still, I prefer that. JSA worked well with a next generation but I think that was because most of those that read JSA today never saw the original.

How many Titans have stuck with JLA? Would people read a JLA of Nightwing, Supergirl, that Guy in fishnets.... I don't think so. Readers are too familiar with what came before.


LSH 4009: that's the ticket. Just start all over with no reboot, save the new origin for say, issue 200. Just start right in on the action.

You missed the complete failure of the Marvel Age line, when Marvel tried exactly that with Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four, I presume?