Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lightning Saga Legion in Action!

It was primarily Superman's show, which was apt since it *is* Action Comics featuring Supes, after all.

I was disappointed at no Element Lad, Dream Girl, Jeckie, etc. Maybe we'll see updates on them in the BATMAN AND THE LSH issue next month? Bats, Supes and Lightning Lad sitting around talking is how it was summarized, I think. Interesting.

The LSH at full(ish) strength was a nice spread. I really liked seeing Sun Boy back and in uniform. Been a long time. (Blond Dirk in the current boot is a character I like, but he doesn't evoke the feeling I got when I saw the classic uniformed Dirk with the right hair color in action.)

I appreciate how they've now positioned the LSH as inspiration for Clark Kent. Since the first Crisis, there's sort of been this double wave of sources for inspiration of heroism in the DCU. The JSA is one, and Superman's decades later ascent is the other.

Since the LSH is the group that inspired Superman, they are also now a very real, if secondary, inspiration for the Justice League and thus for the Teen Titans, Outsiders, Doom Patrol, etc.

They aren't just the kooky kids who time travel to the20th/21st century every now and then, anymore. In terms of relevance to the 'current' day DCU.

I wonder if that's what Superman will be telling Batman next month?

It was great to finally see the "classic Legion" in action. But what I question is the "classic" part. Is THIS "THE" Legion we grew up with, or a slightly altered version? Is this the Legion that vanished after Zero Hour? Did that Legion actually vanish, and the Zero Hour stuff is yet to be retold or did the classic Legion "end" before that? More importantly, Superman mentioned Magic Wars...does this mean that Pol Krinn is dead and that is the point where this "classic Legion" stopped. With all of that said, I guess Val is already dead, Colossal Boy and Duplicate Boy have had their brawl over "Shrinking Violet (seeing that's how Gim ended up with Yera), Ayla and Salu had their affair and perhaps she ended up back with Brin?!? I'm so confused!!! (and I've been a LSH fan since 1980!!!).

We don't yet know the point of departure, but there definitely is one. The original Crisis would be my guess.

We do know that Val died and one of Lu's bodies died and that both somehow were brought back to life, only to die again in COUNTDOWN.

Stupidly.

Oh, it's slightly altered. No Supergirl, for one thing. Very possibly no Tyroc or Chemical King. Johns has suggested that the point of departure was Crisis on Infinite Earths, but there are changes that reach back earlier than that. I think the *big* point of departure was a while before Crisis, where in original continuity the three founders retired and had to be retired by Tellus, Quislet and Magnetic Kid, but in this continuity I don't think that happened.

Actually, if Superman's connection to the Legion has been restored, there's no need to assume that Lu's 2nd body ever died. If you take away the need for the Pocket Universe to explain how the Legion interacted with "Superboy," then you no longer have the need for the entire conspiracy plotline agains the Time Trapper. Mon-El might not have sustained the terrible injuries he got during that battle with the Time Trapper either (the Action Legion Shadow Lass doesn't have the marriage/finger amputation that she did when Mon-El appeared to be on his death bed.) My feeling is that this Legion's timeline really splits from the original about that time.

It's all a bit wonky though because the Action Legion behaves as though they hadn't seen Clark in a long time (and vice versa) but Superboy (and Supergirl for that matter) contributed significantly to the fight against Darkseid during the Great Darkness. I really don't see much hope in trying to pin it down to specifically. I'm just on for the ride.

Would LL necessarily know that Starman is in the neighborhood? I've completely lost track of which legion is which but I believe it is L. LAD going back in time and I don't recall if he's been there recently and knows about Starman's role here at all.

And now for the obigatory...

TTSMMHH.

time travel stories make my head hurt.

I think it's pretty clear that there's no sense in looking for a clear "point of departure" of this Legion from the pre-Zero Hour team. Whatever changes have been made have been made to them throughout their history. The only sense in which they're THE original Legion is basically the same sense in which the current Superman is THE pre-Crisis Superman, despite the fact that the vast majority of pre-Crisis Superman stories either didn't happen or happened in a radically altered form.

I think it was Lu's body which was killed by Computo in ADVENTURE that was brought back. So, if she reappears in ACTION or THREE WORLDS, she'll still be Duo Damsel.

Yeah but they aren't seeing Superboy, they are seeing Superman...a well established Superman.

He saw them during the crisis as well...but again, that was a Superman well established in his career...and they really didn't interact much with each other...


For Superman, it had been a long time since he saw them in more than passing...even since the Crisis

For this Legion...it hasn't been as long since they saw him IMO. Remember, there is time travel involved, and the Legion can pretty much choose when and where during Superman's career to interact. While the Legion and Superboy seemed to be running on paralell time line exactly a thousand years apart, it was always much more dicey with Superman.

The impression I get is that the Legion pariticapted in the COIE much more recently than Superman, at least from their POV it was more recent.

The main reason he was such a sight for sore eyes to them was because the 31st century had undergone such radical changes.


As for the demarcation point, it's pretty obvious that most everything from the Pocket Universe Story and after has been eliminated from the continuity. That makes total sense if the desire was to bring back the original Legion.

It does not make much sense to bring back anything after the Pocket Universe and especially the 5YG Legion if you want to bring back the original Legion.

Reason being, to the 5YG Legion, Superman was never a member as a kid. He was a totally different character. There would be next to no connection between that Legion and Superman...and there certainly wouldn't be anything to fondly reminisce about.

It would make little or no sense to bring them back in Action Comics and with Superman.

IMO, it's only confusing if you consider the 5YG Legion to be an extension of the original Legion. Which, since the 5YG Legion had a near totally different inspiration, continuity, greatest Legionaire etc. it's a leap to make that coclusion, it always was.


Similar arguments could be made for the end of the Levitz run as well, but bringing that era of the Legion back(and calling it the original) would make much more sense than the 5YG Legion.


Superman was jut another ancient Superhero to the 5YG Legion, there was nothing unsually special about him to them(beyond his rep as the greatest Superhero ever) or them to him..


I guess what I am saying is, Superman and the 5YG Legion wouldn't have much to talk about....they wouldn't be old friends, as would definitely be the case with the original Legion.

WHAT?! They killed Double-Header! That's two people buddy! Double-Header fans unite! Oh wait...he's the only character that I've never seen a fan for. I mean sure he may have casual fans but is he anyone's favorite character?

I'm just messing. That was the safest character to kill for sure.

I think Geoff did mention though that a few years did go by between Crisis and now. It would be nice to see a Secret Files showing what transpired in the meantime.

I don't see any reason why it can't be as close as the post crisis to magic wars stuff as possible. It would take out the power behind the Trapper battle in #50 but I have the original story.

Hooray for finally having an internet connection stable enough to be worth attempting a post!

Hooray for this issue; I enjoyed every drop. Brainy, Yera, and Gim's interaction was an unexpected treat.

And hooray for Superman and the Legion to be connected again and in such a way that they both inspire each other.

I do still need to see a healthy Element Lad with a firm future with the team before this all has my full seal of approval, but it's still providing hope.

I seriously hope he doesn't do that...I like Mon-El alive, not dead. I like Wildfife being back in the Legion. I don't want them removed again. I mean...they just brought them back.

Mon El died in the Magic Wars, Wildfire went poof right before the Magic Wars...

The Emerald Empress is dead...


I am sure I am forgetting some stuff, but that's why I don't want to see that stuff included.

Plus to put that stuff in this continuity, you have to do another retcon, that will no doubt, not make any sense to anyone a few months after it is done, and doing that kind of retcon is what messed up the Legion in the first place and put us on the path to where we are now.

Given that they're already having to do a substantial amount of retconning just to fit New Earth Superman into Earth-1 Superman's place, I don't see that it would require that much more retconning to fit the rest of the stuff from Crisis to Magic Wars in.

Using Magic Wars as an explanation, they could probably retcon just about anything. Lingering vestiges of uncontrolled magic, etc. etc....

I do...it sounds simple but once you start attempting it, it gets more and more complex.


For one thing...New Earth Suprman is being put into stories Superman was always a part of till he was retconned out.


If you try to put him in the Magic Wars you are putting him into continuity that he was never a part of...Post Crisis. A continuity that at least in part was built on the fact that Superman wasn't part of the Legion and had stories predicated on that fact.

I actually think it would be easier to retcon Superman into the 5YG or Zero Hour Legions than it would be to retcon him into the Post Crisis part of the Levitz Legion.

The main thing being is what happened in the Time Trapper story?


I mean that is a huge deal there as it eventually lead to the Death of a Legionaire.

IMO, if you want to retcon the Magic Wars...

You need to leave the Pocket Universe Superboy Story intact...as in the Time Trapper tricked them into thinking he was their Superboy.


As for me...I don't want that stuff in the continuity...because I like Mon-El and Wildfire, and the Emerald Empress.


And I haven't seen anything yet that definitively precludes Pre Crisis stories from occurring...

Maybe the Lana Lang Insect Queen stuff...but even that's not definitive.


Could you list some examples?


It hasn't been proven SuperGirl wasn't a part of this Legion...

And Superman, per his new origin, did have a career as Superboy(although it was much more covert), we just haven't seen it yet due to the ongoing litigation between DC and the Siegel family.

I haven't seen anything definitive yet...and I think Johns has purposely been trying to not be definitive yet...

Which is smart, trying to be definitive when you don't have a grasp of the impact on the continuity is what gets you the Post Crisis Legions.


Me? The last 3rd of the Baxter Run wasn't the Legion to me...it was a Legion gutted and ruined by DC Editorial Policy and John Byrne, with Paul Levitz trying to put the pieces back together in what was largely a killing spree at the Universal Level...and I'm glad that so far it seems Johns isn't going to pick up where that one left off.


I am glad he is picking up the original Legion...when it was still the original Legion, and not the Post Crisis Legion which wasn't the original Legion.


This current Action Legion and Superman? They may not be the originals...just far closer than anything else, including the end of the Levitz run...and that's a good thing, because that Legion was a good thing.

And one other thing...while everyone is cringing about what Johns might do to the Legionaires...Paul Levitz gets a free pass for killing a ton of Legionaires and Villians, and his replacement characters weren't near as memorable as the ones he took away. That was part of what I didn't like about his run.


Shooter >>>>>> Levitz when it comes to creating memorable Legionaires and Villians.


Levitz? He was good at doing stuff with pre existing characters and plot threads...and creating new characters was definitely his weak point as a writer....outside of an interesting supporting character or two.


The most memorable all new super character created in his run was Quislet IMO...

Which incidentally...if the Magic Wars is in continuity Quislet likely won't be around either, and I'm hoping he will be.

Johns already has the villain that can retcon just about anything, in the Time Trapper.

No telling what Legion related walls SuperboyPrime was punching in limbo either...

One thing I find interesting about this board...though we are Legion fans...and let me make this clear, all fans of Post Crisis Legions are true Legion Fans...not to damn with faint praise, but you'd have to be a true Legion fan to be a fan of them.

Inordinately there are great deal of fans that seem to pride themselves on their intellecutalism, that defend the spirit of creativity in which the post crisis Legions were created, and defend the aesthetic value of those works.

Dare I say even a couple of counter comic book culture types are among those fans of the Post Crisis Legions...


The post crisis Legion, the 5YG, the Zero Hour...those Legions were the mandate of coporate policy. Censorship, revisionism, copyright protection, and on the part of John Byrne, creative ignorance and even hatred of the Legion, were what gave birth to those Legions.

Ultimately the decision that gave birth to them was that of non comic people, and people completely ignroant/ambivalent of the history of the Legion. Possibly those Legions were mandated by lawyers worried about claims to ownership by creators...a far cry from the pure spirt of artistic creation that so many of their defenders seem to think they are embodying by defending the creative integrity of those Legions.

It was not the spirit of creativity that birthed those post crisis Legions, and nearly every creator that has been a part of a post crisis Legion, including the current publisher of DC comics, including Tom and Mary Bierbaum, and Mark Waid, and Keith Giffen, will attest to this fact...in fact most of them will call it a mistake. It was cold hard coporate policy, and those are entirely corporate Legions.


They have their place, and they do all have their merits, artistic and otherwise...just not in the same linear continuity as the original Legion, IMO.

IMO, the Post Crisis Legion, was not the original Legion, not even when Levitz was writing it. It was John(I always hated the Legion of Superheroes) Byrne's and probably some TW lawyers' Legion...


LLTL

OK,
Not to burst your bubble, or start an argument, but the pre-crisis Legion, and they do have their place, wasn't made to save humanity from the Barbarians at the gate. They were created to sell comic books. If people would buy stories about Superman, maybe they'd buy them about Superman when he was a boy. Hey You! Write me a series about a teenage Superman growing up in Smallville. OH! Throw Lex Luthor in there, too! Hey, we need to appeal to female readers, let's give Superman a female sidekick... hmmm, his cousin Supergirl! You, make her blonde and give her an alliterative name starting with L. You know, that story about the super-hero club from the future was pretty popular with the letter writers. You, over there, when you're done with whatever you're doing give me another story about that Legion, but let's change the costumes, make the girl a blonde, and what's with the magnetic eyes? Change that... etc, etc, etc.

Mandated by a publishing company wanting to sell comic books to whoever might buy them.

Actually...they were created out of spontaneous creativity on the part of Otto Binder and the editorial philosphy of Mort Weissenger and they became more than that because of fan demand.

They were also saved from oblviion by the first true organized fandom devoted to a comic, in all of comicdom.


That is not why the Post Crisis Legions came about.

There was no clamoring for the Post Crisis Legion...and while the fans did clamor for the Post Crisis Legions to be fixed...


DC did not make a sincere effort to give those fans what they wanted, and what they were asking for.

DC gave them something else, and hoped

A. They would learn to like it
B. IF they didn't, new fans would like it to the same degree the original was liked.


Unfortunately for DC and all of us Legion Fans, that never truly happened to the degree that the original Legion was successful.

Actually...that was the idea of Jerry Siegel...the guy who basically invented this entire genre and industry in the process.

Not to mention created most of the original Legionaires and was the primary architect of their Universe.


Trust me...Jerry always made the creative decision over the coprorate one...hence the rest of his life after creating Superman.

DC hasn't been publishing the best Legion they could have been publishing, they haven't handled it as well as they could have...and it's not entirely due to incompetence or ignorance of what the fans were asking for...it's due to worries over copyrights and creator claims of ownership...or in the case of Byrne, Legion hating creator butt kissing.


You don't even have the pure nature of supply and demand between the company and the fans at work there.


DC was not giving the fans what they asking for...as they almost always did with the original Legion.


I'm not saying the Post Crisis Legions are all bad...I'm just saying they aren't the original, and they weren't borne out of a desire on DC's part to give the fans what they were asking for as the original was.


I've got no problem with their existence or their publication...I just don't want them to be considered the original Legion or married to that linear continuity.


No one was asking for the Post Crisis Legion...no one was asking for the 5YG Legion, no one was asking for the Zero Hour Legion, and no one was asking for the W&K Legion...they all have their fans now, but no one was asking for them...they were asking for something else witht he Legion, which DC refused to provide.

Some learned to accept it...but the reboots speak for thsemvles as to how successful that philosophy was for DC...and that includes the Post Crisis Levitz Legion.


I'm all for DC publishing a version of the Magic Wars Legion...I'm all for them publishing the Zero Hour and 5YG Legions...

I just don't want the original Legion being turned into them...


The original Legion should have the same right to fail on it's own merits as all the others have failed. Tis fair, no?

Sure, that's fair. Just don't speak for the Bierbaums or Keith Giffen or Mark Waid. Most of them "would call it a mistake?" How do you know? Have they all said so in interviews?

Speak for yourself unless you have some evidence of what others have said.