Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lightning Saga Legion in Action!

Oh, trust me, I don't find it hard at all

I'm sitting watching this debate with somewhere between dispassion and mild amusement - while preboot variations don't have that special "never ever EVER" place in my brain the "threeboot" does, I don't really care about them + it's Johns + I really don't care for current DC in general.

But, execution notwithstanding, it seems as original as the Post-Crisis/Glorithverse LoSHes - less so than the former in a lot of ways, if it rewrote the origin. Which, if applied in a relatively similar way to post-ZH, would probably make me not bother before even checking the execution, but...

I'll add Dev-Em fiasco to the "evidence". (i did earlier and you guys left it out!)

Wildfire using Red Tornado's body? I hate it but anyways that could've happened off panel post-Crisis or Magic Wars or whatever.

The way I see it is a lot of the inconsistencies can be explained by the changes made in history by New Earth being created.

To me, that makes it more like the Post-Crisis Legion rather than the Glorithverse. And the thing about that is that no-one ever suggested that the Post-Crisis Legion, heck even the Glorithverse Legion, wasn't the originals.

Which makes me wonder what is so different this time that people don't have that same view this time.

Or there could be a retcon that Prof. Vultan used the Red Tornado's inner workings to create the suit Wildfire inhabits. It might not be literally Reddy's "body".

As I said above, no-one thought the differences between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis history didn't make the Legion appearing V3, after the Crisis, the originals.

So why do the changes now, as compared to the changes then, cause people to doubt their "authenticity"?

Lots of people were irritated by the changes as they appeared in V3. The authenticity question can be answered a few ways.

I would imagine that fans back in the 80s
a) were less likely to complain vocally. There has been a cultural shift in this direction in the past 20 years.

b) Did not have an outlet where they could easily complain. It's hard to remember life before the internet, but writing a letter, putting a stamp on it was an awful lot of work relatively speaking. Then the letter reached the editor and they would filter the ones they wanted to print. As opposed to the net, which resembles an unfiltered hall where everyone talks again.

c) did not have a problems with the hypocrisy of the editorial statements now compared to then. Back then they said upfront that things were being changed to fit the modern continuity, people accepted the loss of that and had moved on. Now they restore the multiverse giving the possibility of the restoration of the entire original continuity. Then they bring back something say it is the original but isn't, when the entire precrisis earth could easily be Earth 86 or whatever.

Pardon me, I haven't read a single issue of Countdown, but I saw this a few months ago in the thread Recent Legion verse sightings.

Is that out now?

[/b]

"You were kids."
"No. We were Legion." two panels or so beat more than two years. TKO.

Yet they get bashed by some more for a few guest appearances than a starring-title version that has produced minimal fruits.

I am curious of what your definition of "righteous" is, so I'll refrain from pot/kettle comments.

The original Legion did end, whether in 1994, 1990, 1986/7, 1958 or whenever one draws the line. I concede that. I do not see the Johns Legion as any farther a leap from the original as some (but then, I have no problem with 5YL either).

What is "original?" If it wasn't published in 1958, one can argue that any variant Legion is not "original." Garth's original origin had only him on Korbal getting zapped. Mekt was added later. And then Ayla. Thus by 1963, we were already seeing variantions and changes (and don't get me started on the 21st/30th century or World Wide Police changes).

Thus far, I do not see enough differences to consider this any less authentic "original" than any other Preboot version. If one chooses to perceive differnetly, I respect your rigght to do so. But I respectfully request that you don't get "righteous" about it.

The differences in a nutshell:
1. no Supergirl or Pocket Universe
2. Young Clark and possibly young Superman instead of Superboy
3. new twists that were not revealed Preboot but don't necessarily contradict it
4. new ties to regular DCU continuity that offer minor (at best) contradictions to Preboot
5. a handful of minor changes

okay... so we do all know this is not exactly Preboot. Instead we are arguing over semantics about how close it is, and whether its proxinity is dishonest or not. Regardless of its quality or impact on contniuity, was Byrne's Superman dishonest for ditching blue, white and plaid Krytonite or revamping what didn't work by his 80s sensibilities? Even if you didn't like it, was that "dishonest?" By all acounts, Byrne intended to get back to (what he saw as) the essence of the character.

Creators, even those trying to rebuild the past, do need some flexibility. Good stories have to take precedence over anal retentive continuity - what good is an intact continuity that no one cares about? How could anyone revive a 100% "authentic" Preboot Legion, since there are so many inconsistencies? Also, how does one pick up at, say, Crisis, without contradicting the rest of v.3 and Preboot v.4? You cannot. You have to figure out what works and run with it.

Johns has yet to show any departure greater than any other in-era modifications.

If you do not believe me, re-read Cary Bates. Re-read the early Silver issues. List al lthe post-Crisis changes. It is impossible to write anything 100% "true" to everything.

Mon-El, even though that image did make it into Countdown, the stories themsleves state that none of the League/Society members know who a Legion is and thus contridicts it being apart of "New Earth" history. And Karate Kid has given no indication that this is his second trip to the present.

So, either it's crappy writing or crappy editing. Take your pick.

And I (personally) don't see anything mentioned above as "anal retentive continity." I see it as a history of a team which Johns and TPTB are claiming are now apart of the Legion that is appearing in Action Comics when their "good stories" are proving that it is not.

Some people have been arguing for years that the post-Crisis and Glorithverse Legions weren't the authentic originals, especially the Glorithverse. I know because I'm one of them. For that group of fans (not so small, I think), the Earth One Legion before Crisis -- for all its inconsistencies -- is the one and only original. So, the line of demarcation DC recently drew at Crisis seems a natural separator -- it's existed for us a very long time. The problem (my problem, specifically) is that what's been wedged in the place of those abandoned realities is just another make-believe "original" Legion.

I totally agree with your comparison of the Johnsboot and post-Crisis Legion. The situation is pretty much the same now as it was in 1986 -- which translates into very bad news. The New Earth Superboyman is quite frankly rot, imo. Not as not bad as the pocket universe superboy clone and Valor, but still rot. It's the same basic recipe for disaster DC used in 1986 and 1989 to produce the previous two make-believe "original" Legions, and it doesn't taste any better now than it did then.

Could someone fix the Johnsboot Legion after Johns lets it go? Maybe, but they'd have to fix Superman first. And the complete mess DC has made of New Earth. And the new Multiverse, too. The problem is widespread and systemic. I'm not opposed to Final Crisis wiping out the entire thing and resetting all its properties from scratch, including the Legion. It wouldn't necessarily restore the original Legion, but it couldn't be a worse situation than it is presently.

So basically, Purists are never going to be satisfied with anything that isn't 100% true to what they want (or rather what they think they want)... IF (a very big if) all Purists could even agree on a single set of criteria. Even if most say Crisis is the point to return to, we have no guarantee that others can/will insist that some elements of post-Crisis (like Conspiracy, the Sensor Girl mystery) be included, while other might insist that pre-Secret of the Legion (or whatever) has to be the point of return.

In short, Purists are not going to be happy even if they get what they seem to be asking for.

And to get anything remotely resembling what Purists want, we have to revamp the entire DCU, re-add Supergirl, settle the Superboy lawsuits, and ignore the past 22 years, the good bad and neutral. It's a good thing they don't want much!

Okay, fine. If you want to wait for your perfect ship to come in, I cannot begrudge you that. It is going to take years for legalities, plus more corporate politicking at DC. I myself find the path of least resistance to be glad we have a cup that is at least 3/4 full than to complain that "they don't make straws the way they used to."

If I were sitting around waiting for my "perfect" Legion, I wouldn't go around arbitrarily bashing any others.

BTW, they are all "make believe" Legions.

I can respect that. But to me, a 1965 Mustang is still a 1965 Mustang, even if it has new upholstering or different hubcaps.

In the context of the sheer number of changes and "course corrections" made throughout the Preboot era, I do not see anything far out of line compared with adjustments that were made during/within that period. As we learn more, I may reverse my stance.

I was not on any LSH board when Superboy's Legion came out. Was there as much horror and scorn from the Purists when that came out?

It was very nice of Matthew to go to all the trouble of posting everything he considers evidence that the Legion in Action is not the original one.
That gives all of us the opportunity to examine our positions better, regardless of position.

Still, as others have mentioned already, a lot of that evidence is not really contradictory to any previous continuity and we have to allow for retcons. Retcons have been a staple of comics since..well...the 1960s and it never was a big deal before as it seems to be today re the Legion.

The continuity problems he lists under "6" are definitely valid evidence that this Legion is not the original one. For now. The storyline is not complete yet. It could be sloppy writing, it could be a "red herring" DC throws at us in order to manipulate us a little so we, the fans, will create the furor over the it is/it isn't matter (and they've succeeded) , it could be something else.

What he lists under "7" and "8" is not valid evidence and some of them are simply personal preferences. It's already been established that some time, years probably, have passed since the point of departure of this Legion after Crisis, or after any other point one wants to choose. Some things will NOT be the same. They cannot be the same. Let me illustrate this with an example:

If a person read 2-3 Legion issues from the mid- 60s and 2-3 more from the mid-80s, he/she could *very easily* make a case that they are different Legions. Suppose this hypothetical reader didn't know there had been hundreds of stories that led, more or less, seamlessly into the Legion of the 80s. He/she would have found tons of evidence to support the theory that the 80s' Legion was not the original one! Even the Legion of the 70s would seem different! When did Saturn Girl turn from a rather prudish, level-headed girl into that sensual vamp? She can't be the same Saturn Girl, can she?

The difference of course is there are all those issues between the 60s and the 80s that could change his mind but, in the case of the Legion in Action, retcons will take the place of all those "unpublished" stories. I know it's a leap of faith that some people are willing to do, while others aren't and I, for one, respect that. I would definitely like ALL old stories to be preserved in any new Legion continuity. All of them! But if I had to choose between the story of Lightning Lad's death - which incidentally the Lightning Saga pays homage to and is an important evidence of the continuity of this Legion - and,say, "Supergirl's three super-girlfriends" I'd have to choose Lightning Lad's death and resurrection story as overall more important.

As for the Glorithverse, its a separate timeline, a separate future between 2 or 3 possible timelines in the Post-COIE DC universe. Glorithverse is so far removed from the the original continuity that it's just a possible future from a continuity so heavily retconned that it's tantamount to a reboot, imho. The Legion in Action may be another possible future but it seems so very much closer to the original continuity that cannot be considered a reboot.

Oh! Let me add something. Even though I've been a Legion fan since forever, I do not consider myself an authority and i don't really want to be one. I like it better to always discover new things about my favorite comic book and feel that "sense of wonder" alive in me. That's why I enjoy reading the Trivia topic. You guys really amaze me and I'm stumped at most questions but it's quite fun nonetheless.

Superboy's Legion was an elseworlds story that never pretended to be a previous version of the team. So why be upset about it?

The people you are arguing with aren't "Purists." And, I find it patronizing to label people who don't agree with your point of view.

DC has 52 worlds now. Why does everything still have to happen in one narrow-minded universe? Every single Legion story, including the minor inconsistencies mentioned regarding Bates and other writers could exist if the creative people writing for DC weren't so uncreative.

Why shouldn't there be a Supergirl (of Earth-One?) who was a member of the Legion and who died during Crisis? Why is that such a bad thing? Why do we have to ignore that to squeeze Pre-Crisis universe into this Post-Crisis sieve? I don't want them to ignore the Zero Hour Legion either. People are sick of being spoken-down to about how this is the best they can come up with or that this is the closest we can come to having a Pre-Crisis Legion. It isn't.

There's a KC Superman in JSA, why not have an Earth-One Superman be apart of the Legion? What a concept!

And being AR is akin to objecting that Cosmic Boy was wearing his Adventure-Era togs rather than his Giffen-attire in Lightning Saga. That I could see people over-reacting when complaining about. A guy can change clothes.

But wanting everyone to just ignore the past when that's what Johns and everyone is hyping we are regaining in this situation, makes no sense to me. Otherwise, what's the point of having a Legion other than the one that DC is publishing in it's own book appear?

[Dain posted while I was typing this was a response to Kent. And to add that a better analogy is that DC is advertising a 1965 Mustang, but what they are actually selling is a 1965 Camaro with Mustang parts.]

I think you're analogy would work better the other way around. It looks like a 65 Mustang with Camaro parts.

This Legion looks like the Pre-Boot Legion, but some of the workings are different.

We'll have to wait and see about that. So far the new designs don't look like an organic change from the last time we saw this group. And the characterization hasn't been dead on either.

I see. Thanks, Gary.

So it seems people are reacting negatively to Johns LSH primarily because of how DC is promoting it? I see. I deal with what's printed. To me, worrying about DC "continuity" is like forecasting next October's weather. Since I've been reading Johns on its own merits, I really see no difference, in terms of remodeling Preboot for a new story, whether Johns or S'boy's Legion. As far as I can tell, any new series that is a part of current DC continuity is inherently at odds with all continuities that came before, so no current version (aside from an Elseworlds) ever can recapture the past (a la Dark Detective mini recapturing late 70s Batman). Thus this entire debate seems all the more mind-boggling.

My apologies for the "Purist" remark. I was trying to fight fire with fire, to show how arbitrary Johns-bashers appear to me. It appears my message did not get conveyed as intended.

I completely agree about your multiverse observations. I think that is why we are seeing the Johns Legion. I have no problem with any number of LSH eras having multiple permutations; remember the 60s-stlye Adult Legion from Supermna/Batman? Them, too. But that, to me, does not automatically undervalue the Johns Legion.

I'm not aware of who is advocating ignoring the past. But again, I've been focused on the book, not the hype. I am recalling a decade ago how NBC kept promoing Fraser, as if each episode could be *the* one where Daphne and Niles hook up. It got so bad that the actors themselves had a press conferencve basically saying, "enough. It ain't gonna happen soon. We respect our fans and their intelligence, and hope they watch based on the show's merits" (or words to that effect. So to me, blaming the product rather than the hypers seems misguided (Yes, I am letting Johns himself off the hook here. I am aware he has claimed that he is restoring the Preboot Legion (or words to that effect), and may even see his work in that light. As a creator, I support his endeavors. But he is not the referee of continuity itself, last I checked).

And I disagree about your Camero, but I will concede your point of view has point-of-view validity.

Nightcrawler said Ah, but that's exactly the point. DC says it's the original Legion but the fact remains it's a "restored" continuity of the original Legion.
Restored cars don't stop being the models they were just because they have "restored parts".
That's why I said in another post that I feel the Legion in Action is the classic Legion with a "restored" continuity (Well, most of it).


It seems to me that using a technicality like "original/non-original" in an extremely strict sense is looking at the trees and missing the forest.

People, generally speaking, don't like to feel manipulated and I know DC is manipulating us a little (any marketing strategy does that anyway, anywhere, about anything) but I feel this annoyance has been blown completely out of proportion and, after all, it's irrelevant to how good or bad the Legion in Action is *on its own terms*.
It's one thing to say "I hate the Legion in Action because of plot/art/whatever" and quite another to say "I hate the Legion in Action because DC is manipulating me by saying it's the original Legion, so I'll never find anything good to say about it". It's all a matter of motives.

I believe that most people, like Matthew, are sincere in trying to prove their theory about the Legion's "originality" and it's also fun and interesting to talk about it, but "most" doesn't mean "all".

Which characterization? Shooter's? Giffen's? Levitz's?

Though not as long as other people, I've been reading the Legion for about 35 years now and have seen characterization vary widely between creators.

Characterization in that one minute Superman is upset the Legion comes to his time and doesn't come to him for help and then in Action he doesn't remember who Brainiac 5 or the Legion is.

Brainiac 5 gave Superboy and his cousin temporary protection from the Red Sun in the Great Darkness Saga, yet can't provide that protection (long enough for him to survive for awhile) when he sends Superman to the future? Let alone the established fact that Kryptonians no longer immediately lose their powers in a Red Sun.

I could probably come up with more but just re-reading John's version of the Legion's first meeting with Clark and I certainly don't recognize these people.

People may dismiss the 5 Years Later Legion, but (even the characterizations that I didn't like) seem more in tune with where the characters had been and how they would evolve (in most cases, there are a few exceptions).

Look, I don't hate the Action Legion. I'm looking forward to it. But, I don't see it as the second coming that most people seem to want to see it as.

And besides, based on most of the posts in this thread alone, why do any of you want to see the Pre-Crisis (or any version of it) again? You all seem to want nothing more than to bash it and everyone who wrote/drew it?

They didnt make camaros until 1967 the year I was born.

Well...it does seem like some of us think of this as a "second coming", doesn't it?
I definitely don't want to bash either the Legion in Action or any other version or era.

But those are plot points and continuity errors. Not personality traits, motives, etc. which are what characterization is all about.
As to why Brainy provides no protection, maybe the sun wasn't red when he contacted Superman. When Superman arrives its six months after Brainy first contacted him. In the future, I mean.
I agree with you, I don't see it as the "second coming" either. But I find it hard to understand why people are going out of there way, especially after years of wishing that DC would bring back the "originals", to invalidate this particuler incarnation of the Legion that, aside from some updates and retcons to fit it within the New Earth timeline, brings back into continuity a version of the Legion people have been asking for. Especially as most of the reasons I see people using to invalidate them aren't, to me, that objectionable.
Not me, I'm that rare creature a fan of ALL Legion incarnations.

Please don't spit on me!

Basically I don't understand the complaints when we've seen the examples given so many times before, Not just Post-Crisis, Glorith-verse, Post-Boot or Three-Boot, but in the Pre-Crisis Legion itself.

I'm sorry, DC/Geoff Johns, but we cannot admit you into our Original Super-Hero Club! Your low score on the continuity tests we gave you proves your proposal is too imperfect!


Tromium, this means you're Saturn Girl.