Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lightning Saga Legion in Action!

I don't know. But another thing to compare is:

how well Action normally sells
how well Action sells with the Legion
how well Brave and Bold normally sells
how well Brave and Bold sells with the Legion

and even then it's not clear, because a) DC was really hyping this run of Action, and b) it was Gary Frank's first Action issue, and a lot of people seemed excited about that.

I know there are some vocal people out there who are enthusiastic about Johns's Legion but don't give a toss about the threeboot Legion. What I don't know is how many silent ones there are. Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?

And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.

I do think that there are some of readers in the silent majority (non-internet people) who would see and recognize Dawnstar, Wildfire and others from the late 70's/Levitz era and be inclined to pick up Action for that reason. Visually, it would look like the Legion they remember.

Its impossible to quantify that specifically, of course. All you can look at is the numbers and then use the mulititude of variables to try and figure out what is selling. You've provided a handful of them Matthew, but there are plenty more as you most likely know. What will be interesting is seeing what DC editorial does about it...

I respect your right to believe as you will.

But when I am a new reader onto a book, I am more intrigued by a rich backstory to delve into than a flashy car spinning its wheels in the mud.

Let's say Geoff Johns and Brad Meltzer wrote the Lightning Saga, and Johns wrote this arc of Action Comics, using the threeboot Legion instead of the revival version we're actually getting.

Would it still be as good, or not?

Good question. First of all, Threeboot Legion's future would not hold the level of mystery and surprise that we find in Action: if SPs were firing on Kal, we'd already know these are the arrogant SPs WaK intro'd, not the nice-guy SPs of 60s-80s.

Likewise, since we already have a sense of Threeboot's 31th C, the Red Sun bit would either come as no surprise, or an odd contradiction with the regular series.

Next, it would be a larger stretch for Superman to have as emotional a connection with Threeboot LSH, since that has not been established. Falling back on restored continuity allows that to be taken largely as a given. Thus we have several pages of recap rather than a six-part arc about young Clark with a Preboot LSH.

Next,despite his variances, Johns does seem to be writing to Preboot LSH in the spirit of who they were in that run. If he was obligated to use Threeboot, he might not connect as closely with those interpretations; it would seem like a Legion that looks like Threeboot but might not act like them (sort of how people have noted that Supergirl in LSH and in her own book don't seem like the same character). That could weaken the story.

And, as Johns does not have to fit his story into Threeboot continuity, he is freer to write the story he wants to.

I admit I have gotten into assumptions, but there is no way to answer the question without. I cannot believe Threeboot LSH is in any way interchangeable with Preboot. Imagine Threeboot LSH shoe-horned into Great Darkness (or even Conspiracy); it would not have the same impact.

How well would the following people like it, compared to how well they like what we did get:

- you?

I've been waiting three years for a Threeboot story that knocks my socks off. I'm still waiting. If Johns was somehow able to maintain the same energy/mystery/quality, I'd accept it. But as I've said, I don't think it could have had the same impact (and not just because of nostalgia).

- someone who's never heard of the Legion before?
- someone who's heard of the Legion but never actually read any Legion comics?
- old-school Legion fans in general?
- younger Legion fans?

Unless someone has made a tight connection with Threeboot (I concede it is possible), I believe individual fans could like/dislike either, or both. Some might even be intrigued as to why there are two (three if you count the animated) versions of the LSH right now.

And I do think old-school fans in general will prefer Action, and not just for nostalgia.

When we're dividing up the credit for how well this comic has succeeded, how much should go to:
- the fact that it's any Legion at all
- the fact that it's *this* Legion
- the fact that it's Geoff Johns, Gary Frank, and Action Comics?

I think if Byrne were reviving Preboot (or any boot), I'd give up comics all together (okay, slightb exaggeration). Creative teams in my opinion do play a huge role.

I do concede that Preboot LSH has a great deal of appeal at the moment, primarily because Threeboot has been so disappointing. But even a well-executed Threeboot (or DNA-era Reboot) LSH would we very welcome. And I am looking forward to Shooter's Threeboot run very much.

But if all that the Johns Legion was running on is nostalgia, it would have run out of steam already. I think those so quick to dismiss this LSH like that are taking a rather cheap shot.

See I think this is part of the problem. At no point did anyone compare sales between the Action/LS/Levitz-esque Legion and the current Legion. Well unto you did so.

Matthew E. you preach "lets all the Legions get along" but then you seem to really try and knock THIS Legion. I've seen you do it here, on Geoff's boards and Newsarama.

People are getting excited over THIS Legion. That doesn't mean they are dogging the current Legion. I am personally very excited about Shooter & fjm on the other Legion.

But god forbid we celebrate THIS Legion. Practice what you preach. Lets not turn these Legion against each other. You think because people celebrate THIS Legion they are dogging the other one. You are dogging this Legion.

Sorry about outburst I just had my coffee. (cuban/strong stuff)

But how about the sales with Johns, Donner and Kubert. No offense to Frank but I think Kubert is a bigger name. Did those sell out?

You may refuse to believe it Matthew, but it's a fact. They don't "automatically" prefer anything. They just like it better and in several forums there've been people who said just that. "I love the Legion in Action and had never read the Legion before".
That is a fact. You may choose to disregard it as irrelevant, but it remains a fact. Certain people may feel it's impossible to like the Legion in Action more than the WaK one, but I feel that's an emotional and sentimental response because of *their* emotional investment in the current Legion, like you yourself have pointed out - beautifully and eloquently - in your blog.
It's obvious that the artificial dichotomy "Old Legion for old people - New Legion for young people" has crumbled. Young people can like the old Legion fine if it's part of a good story.

I said:

And people responded:

You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?

I am trying very hard not to do exactly what you said I am doing.

It is true that I have some objections to how DC is presenting Johns's Legion to us, and I have not been shy about saying so.

But I have also said that there have been lots of times when DC has made decisions about the Legion that I didn't agree with, and good Legion comics have come of it anyway. Since it's Geoff Johns who's writing about this Legion, I fully expect that this will be another such time. I have never said that this was a bad version of the Legion or that the stories containing them were bad.

One thing I have said is this: we don't know anything about this Legion yet. We know that they're based on the original Legion, but we also know that Johns feels free to take some liberties with the source material. We don't know much about his take on them yet. I am optimistic about the quality of the storytelling and characterization we're going to see with regards to this Legion, but all it is is optimism. It's not based on anything we've seen so far. What have we seen so far? Have we seen any Legion stories starring this Legion? We have not. We have seen:
- a JLA/JSA story in which a few Legionnaires appeared. Almost all the time they were onscreen they were amnesiac or acting deceptively
- one issue of a Superman story in which a few Legionnaires appeared

When I actually see something from this Legion, good or bad, I'll say so. I'll 'celebrate' them once I get to know them. So far I haven't seen anything.

Again: I don't have a problem with this version of the Legion. I'm looking forward to the next issue of Action. I have a problem with
- DC, for trying to pass them off as the original Legion when they're not. That's dishonest.
- the fans who are giving this Legion a free ride by pronouncing them great before they have had any great appearances in comic books, but (some of) who wouldn't walk across the street to spit on the 5YL, reboot or threeboot Legions despite the great appearances in comic books those versions have had.

And I think that's perfectly fair.

Fair enough Matthew.

Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.

I did some research but I am not as good about the sales stuff as other guys here.

The last Johns-Donner-Kubert issue was was ranked #54 in the top 100. I saw some of the other months with that creative team and they were similiar.

So it seems Action isn't selling well even with star creators (Johns/Donner/Kubert!).

Speaking of star creators Waid/Kitson are pretty big names. It didn't equate to big sales either.

So it's either Gary Frank is a much bigger name than I thought or this Legion has drawn lots of attention.

That's true. And I had thought of that. But there's also the issue of how hard DC has been pushing and hyping the arc that started with #858; that probably had some effect.

I don't deny that the presence of Johns's revival Legion has had a positive effect. I just don't know how much of an effect, and it's not the only factor.

Yes and we have been waiting for their return for over twenty years now.

Long Live THE LEGION!

How about the fact that the recent new Legion relaunch with a new #1 issue was much hyped (more so in my opinion than the Action arc) and it didn't sell out?

Good point Nighty. Interesting.

A couple of points regarding sales:

1) Don't underestimate the power of a good cover to move a book off the shelves. The powerful cover image got a lot of people to take a look, I bet.

2) We're discussing this from a Legion point of view. I wonder how many readers who are primarily Superman fans, and don't really know a lot about the Legion are being pulled in by Johns approach. I assume there are a few out there, and imagine their reactions might mirror that of some Superboy fans back in 1959.
Johns has tapped into something with this approach of throwing back to the importance of the Legion in Kal's adolescent development. It's something that Superman fans seem to be responding to as much or more than Legion fans.

LONERS #2 SOLD OUT
119 - 23.59 - LONERS #2 - 18,901

Relative, absolute.

Action has sold well lately, mainly the Kubert issues, but it's lost a little bit of steam with all the lateness of the book. Apparently, this issue sold a lot more. Could be because of the variant cover, because of Gary Frank starting (I doubt it) or because people are hoping for a continuation of the Lightning Saga from JLA/JSA.

As for Brave & Bold, I don't think there's been a difference in sale with or without the threeboot, but it's definitely selling less.

Well, we only have to judge the fact that the first issue sold out. Most of those sales must come from the silent majority. So it's safe to say thousands. And I wouldn't call it "Johns's Legion" really. He didn't create it.
But i think that people mostly want something that's well written and drawn, and the threeboot Legion so far hasn't had any Wow factor, ,which is something you need to generate sales.

I think people want a mysterious, intriguing story, and Lightning Sage has set exactly that up. Plus, the appearance of this Karate Kid in Countdown certainly doesn't hurt. All in all, Lightning Saga has generated an interest in the "old" Legion, while DC hasn't succeeded in generating interest in the threeboot Legion.

I'm not Geoff Johns's biggest fan, but you've gotta hand it to him: he knows how to bring back characters into the fray: Teen Titans, Green Lantern, JSA... the list is long.

You make some very good points, but as someone else already pointed out, the threeboot Legion's already appeared in Action Comics and didn't generate as much attention.

But there's something else to take into account. Even if someone has never had any experience of the Legion, there's a very good chance they've heard of the classic series, more than the Zero Hour reboot or the Threeboot. it's always been that Iconic look that's been represented in house ads, or, with maybe one exception or two, in other projects showing the Legion in one panel (like Alex Ross's projects).

Plus, we have to take into account that two regular series feature characters form that particular Legion, JSA (Starman) and Countdown (Karate Kid and Mono Girl... ermm Una), which brings more attention to them.

We don't know what this Legion is like, for all we know, their backstory is totally different from what we know, but this Legion has ONE MAIN advantage over the two reboots...

It is ICONIC. And that is what appeals to people, and that's what DC has been doing lately.

Even more astounding as you can see that the Legion IS NOT EVEN ON THE COVER of Action #858 (only mentioned, but no picture)...

I have to say that I did not get the Action Annual with the Legion cause I just did not care enough for the Threeboot to spend the money (considering the fact that since the 90s, Annuals are mostly crap anyway... crappy story, crappy art, all crappy )

And the Legion WAS on the cover there...

But what I really think we need to make sure that what we feel is right - that the classic Legion sells more books - are the numbers Matthew mentioned above. Does anybody have the opportunity to get them???

Calling for proof on this one...

And yet, in Kingdom Come, the LSH there is more SW6/postboot than anything else, including an XS. It's even got "stripe" Superboy & Supergirl costumes.

Yeah, Ross' private lithos etc went for the 70s look, but that's not what you're suggesting.

Yes and no.

In 1977, a film you may have heard of came out. It was called "Star Wars." Even though we didn't (yet) know its backstory at the time, it clearly had one, and that added mystery and a mythic quality to our experience of it.

In the 1990s, an amusing sci-fi flick called "Fifth Element" was a fun and generally well-crafted film, but what little backstory it held was sketched out in the beginning and we were not drawn to want/expect any more than what it provided. It did not attract the mythic and yes, iconic level of Star Wars.

I would suggest that both John's story and backstory (shown and implied) draw a closer parallel to the former, while Threeboot tends to be the latter. There has been little hinted at Threeboot's history pre-v.5 #1, nor have we been made to care, or anticipate revelation. (As one of many examples) The mystery of Luornu alone could have been a mythic event - what happened to her world? how/why did she alone survive? It could have been built into Lemnos or another arc... instead it was tossed aside.

You say you are trying to avoid Jorge's characterization, and I would like to believe you. But again and again you retreat into characterizing people who like this version and its story as simply based upon nostalgia.

You say people are failing to appreciate Threeboot's great moments... which great moments are these? Issue #3. Action #850. Maybe B&B. Have I missed any?

The Bedard run has had decent art and adequate stories, but still nothing to call "great." People seem more excited at seeing Wildfire then they are praising the writing.

In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered. If you are going to criticize people for not giving Threeboot its due, you should not pretend it's track record is one iota better than the Johns Legion.

Was Action #858 really hyped more than v.5 #1 or B&B or the addition of Supergirl to LSH? I don't see it. I'm sorry, but it truly does sound like you are looking for excuses to be dismissive of Johns' Legion.

"LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES" #1 SELLS OUT AT DC"

Yes, indeedy, WaK's first issue did sell out but it took longer and didn't go to a 2nd printing.

It debuted at #25 on the sales chart vs. Action #858 at #34. Nothing to sneeze at.

The Titans/Legion special starring the reboot and 3boot Legions (their actual first appearance) was an even bigger seller -- iirc, the highest selling Legion title since Diamond starting recording sales figures. It remains to be seen if Action #858 beats it, or WaK #1 for that matter.

I bet Shooter's premiere issue sells out, too, and outsells Action, if only for his name.

None of it means a dang thing for long term success. Time is the only test that matters. All we know is the current monthly Legion title will be published into Spring 2009 and DC has yet to announce or hint at any plans for other incarnations beyond the 50th anniversary project. It's premature to crown any one the "winner".

Re. the "iconic" debate, I don't see Johnsboot Legion possessing any iconic quality or mythos value it hasn't stolen from the real original Legion, who've yet to make an appearance. Plus, I'm thinking it would be outrageously and hysterically funny if the 3boots turned out to be the reborn Legion of Adventure #247 -- the original original Legion, i.e., the Ur-Legion of 1958 -- whose story Johns inexplicably ignored in #858 in favor of his own weak and pale imitation of the first meeting.

Yes, Virginia, there can be more than one "original" Legion. (We have to wonder who is the character Shooter says DC will call an air strike on his house if he revealed it.)

I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot, 5YL, Johns, or even post-Crisis Levitz, while insisting that Threeboot is somehow more tightly connected with Silver/original LSH at all. I've seen several do it, and it is totally mind-boggling.

I for one am glad we do have multiple versions to support or not. It certainly beats there being no Legion published at all.

My point is that a bunch of people seem to be using selective and arbitrary double standards to put down the Johns Legion in such a way as to imply that Threeboot is somehow a better product.

If Threeboot is threatened by a variant Legion, why not rail against the animated book/series?

It seems clear that some Threeboot supporters are threatened by the sheer notion of a Legion version closer to the original, instead of worrying about why Threeboot has been so lackluster for almost all of the past three years.

It's not that the Johnsboot Legion threatens the 3boot Legion -- it threatens the original Legion. It replaces it, precludes its very existence now and in the future. It's the anti-original Legion, imo.

And I didn't argue the 3boot was a better (or more sucessful) product than the original or any other version, but it's certainly more palatable to me personally than a version designed to manipulate readers into believing it's something it's not.