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All evil doppelgangers have goatees!
...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: FYI, if you didn't read the interview linked above, they confirm they will not be showing the second half of the outrigger scene from Season 5. I know Lardy and some others were hoping we'd see that... Well, fuck. There were many moments where it seemed like it was about to happen, then nothin'! Oh, well...I'll live.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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Yeah, even though they say it was too hard to do, I felt like they had at least two pretty good opportunities to do it early this season. Even if it wasn't exactly what they had planned, it still would have been cool!
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Even a stray line from Widmore about one of his people get shot by folks in an outrigger would've done the trick.
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That's all I would require of them to satisfy me, Edie. Or in the original episode we couldn't see who was in the second outrigger, so all they would've had to do was put Widmore's people on one and show another one off in the distance. Archival footage woulda been sufficient for the principal cast members. But in lieu of any of that, a throwaway line would've been fine. Hell if the line said Zoe was the one hit, it would've explained why she was nowhere to be seen last episode!
I'm not entirely convinced that Lindelof and Cuse weren't toying with the interviewer and us, though. Maybe it's wishful thinking. It just bothers me so much because the setting for it was so clearly within this time frame with the showing of the camp post-abandonment and all. I always thought it would be ironic if the ones shooting were other fellow Losties and someone we know either died or was wounded because of the time slip.
I'll live with it, though, just as I'll live with many of the mysteries being left unsolved or left open to interpretation. They're absolutely right in that the most important thing is to find out what becomes of our cast that we've grown to love all these seasons.
As for the episode in question, the funny thing is that I enjoyed it a LOT more until I came on the damn internet and saw people here and elsewhere nitpicking it to death! No, it didn't spell everything out, but it was very insightful as to what's going on and where the mysterious Jacob and MiB came from. Any good legend is open to interpretation, and that's the quality the mythology behind Lost has--a legendary quality. Don't squeeze all the life out of it!
In any case Cuse and Lindelof say there is more information upcoming to put this episode into context. But hopefully we fans can accept that not everything is going to have a definitive answer to it! (I mean, does it matter who built the statue?) I do hope that there's something about Walt and Aaron in there, for example, but if not, I think we've been given or will get enough answers (or enough hints to draw our own conclusions) to reward us for our time viewing the show.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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Oddly enough Lardy, the more I think about the episode, the less frustrated I am.
Jacob and MiB's origin- answered. Adam and Eve - answered. (feels alittle shaky, but acceptable) History of the donkey Wheel of Time - answered. Jacob's powers - answered. MiB's powers - answered. (granted these are all open to interpretation, but most of the show is)
The only questions raised by this particular episode: What is the island's source? Where do they get their chocolate from?
Just spouting off.
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Count me in the camp of the really frustrated with this episode.
-Why can't the MIB kill Jacob (or viceversa)? Because Mother made it so. -Why are Jacob and the MIB immortal, except if they are killed...by someone else? Because Mother was, too. So Richard is immortal because Jacob was immortal, and this is because Mother was immortal, too. Right. -Why can't the MIB leave the island? Because Mother said so. -Why does the MIB hate people? Because Mother, who he knows lied to him all his life, told him that they are evil.
Sorry, I was not impressed. I hope more answers are forthcoming, because this was very frustrating.
(By the way, so you know, I read a comment very similar to this in Lostpedia. I don\t think I could have formulated my feelings better myself, though)
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Originally posted by Doctor One: -Why does the MIB hate people? Because Mother, who he knows lied to him all his life, told him that they are evil.
Actually, they did kind of deal with this. He actually doubts his mother's assertion, but then discovers she is right based on living among the people and discovering how bad they are.
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what i dont like is the vagueness of everything, there are rules, only mentioned twice but what the hell is the game, you can speculate that Jacob made a game with his rules as was more or less said in the last episode. But why does there have to be a game, and apparantly if there is a game jacob made it up after MIB became the smoke monster.
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*If* Jacob just made up the rules, it keeps things vague but does play up the recurring motif in Lost of games and characters who love them (re: John Locke). I've always taken it to mean that these characters have a certain sense of powerlessness in their lives and the games they play give them a sense of structure and rules, so they feel safer and empowered. Certainly that was why Locke seemed so into them. Interesting to now apply that same logic to Jacob and the MiB.
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I've spent a lot of hours in the last 24 catching up with Lost interviews and podcasts, and a few things REALLY stand out here.
1) Darleton will not spell out every mystery. They explicitly state that they don't want a scene like that between Neo and the Architect in "Matrix: Reloaded" that explains everything too neat and tidy, so there is no mystery or wonder left to the story. You can disagree with them on what they choose to leave mysterious, but I respect their approach. I prefer mystery to neat, tidy explanations, because that's the way life is, and sometimes the most important aspects of life are mysteries, and not just the little things.
2) It's pretty clear that there will be more answers before the show is over, so I think it's premature to complain about "new" mysteries being surfaced so late in the series. Again, when much of the suspense you count on to get the audience to tune in is based on those mysteries, WHY would you stop offering new ones before the end? It doesn't make sense, from an artistic or commercial point of view.
3) The vagueness of the rules is intentional, just as the answers leading to more mysteries is, and the argument, whether you agree with it or not, is that in regular life, we are always struggling to grasp the rules of the game. "Across the Sea" makes clear that, from the beginning of the story of MIB and Jacob, certain characters have the ability, through the power of the Island, to affect life and death outcomes. I've come to see this as a storytelling tool (and a powerful one) that puts into strong contrast the age-old dramatic tension between fate and free will, which "Lost" has dealt with almost from hour one. I myself have complained about the vagueness of the rules (see previous post) so I admit to as much frustration as anyone. But time and reflection make clear the method to the apparent madness. On the one hand, it's a clever storytelling technique to have characters who simultaneously can't be killed but are also in immediate mortal jeopardy. There's a fun "meta" quality about the often-predictable nature of TV show characters that Darleton are quite conscious of, because they want to preserve the suspense that anything can happen, anyone can die, etc. On the other hand, continuing with the meta perspective for a moment, I will be disappointed if we don't see a scene before the finale where Jack, Hurley, somebody gets to yell about their constant manipulation, and how can you argue my choices are important when I've been shepherded (pun!) all my life into this situation, and there are these weird rules of engagement that determine how/if I get killed? They did a lot of that in "The Lighthouse" but I would like to see some more.
4) Finally, and this is more plot clarification than philosophical insight (not that I pretend to have those, either), but I am finally set straight on what Smockie has been up to. It's now REALLY clear that it's the existence of Jacob, and his anointed candidates, that somehow imprisons MIB on the Island. That imprisonment has nothing to do with the location of Jacob and the candidates. Jacob left the Island a LOT, and MIB was stuck there. Jacob dies, but before he dies, he says "they're coming," and I'm sure now he meant the other candidates, and I'm sure that's how Smockie took it, realizing that, while satisfying to kill Jacob after millenia, he wouldn't be free with the candidates still alive. So all this BS about Smockie just wanting to leave, and needing all the candidates to go with him, WAS just BS. When MIB asked Jacob to let him go, and Jacob said "You know I can't do that," he meant literally he COULDN'T do it (without dying). It wasn't a matter of choice, it was a matter of capacity. So MIB all along has been trying to get the candidates maneuvered into position to be killed, and preferably all killed at once (or by each other) and that's difficult to do since the rules prevent them from getting killed under most circumstances. And that's what made his time bomb SO clever (as Jack points out in the show). For the time bomb to actually kill the candidates, it had to be found AND tampered with by the candidates themselves. Otherwise, it just fizzles out like that stick of dynamite on the Black Rock when Jack had his heart-to-heart with Richard. As Jack says, if it were easy to kill them, then just detonate the bomb, don't go the trouble of a count-down timer. Sawyer's tampering means he's the killer, not Smockie, and it will be interesting to see how his actions (which kill Sayid, Sun, Jin and Lapidus) weigh on him for the rest of the show! The other thing made clear here is that Smockie never needed either the plane or the sub to leave the Island. He may need no mortal conveyance at all, being a smoke monster. Or, he may just need the ol' donkey wheel, as we learned in "Across the Sea." That wheel was ALWAYS about leaving the Island. Moving the Island, time travel, that's all just a bonus.
Now one thing I may fault Darleton on is their assertion that the show should speak for itself. That's more than a little disingenuous, since it's taken multiple podcasts, interviews and hours of reflection for me (a not total ignoramus) to reach my current incrementally more enlightened state. But, they might counter that you could just sit back and enjoy the show as a character drama with roots stretching back thousands of years. And they would be right. More important for me, I LOVE the opportunity the show offers to spend hours in reflection and study. That's a big part of what makes "Lost" fun, and I am going to miss it. That's why I would welcome some parting mysteries in the finale. At least I'll have those to keep me company during my period of mourning.
...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
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Excellent, insightful post, DC! As Letterman would say to Schaeffer, "once again, you have crystallized my thoughts eloquently!"
Seriously, that puts a lot of perspective on the episode and the series as a whole, epecially how much the mysteries should be solved or unsolved. Every Lost fan experiences the show a slightly or really different way, but if one has stuck with it and enjoyed it this far, then it's time to let Darleton (never heard this one--me rikey!) finish what they started however they want to. No one's gonna be completely satisfied, but that's the nature of this incredibly well-crafted beast.
I'm not a Prisoner fan, but it's always had a massive cult following even though its ending left a lot of unanswered question. It was part of that show's appeal, and it's part of Lost's, too. Difference is, we get more episodes with Lost, more mysteries, and, yes, more answers.
I'll miss the hell out of Lost! It may be the last gasp for this kind of complex, quality storytelling in serial form.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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I look at it this way...I loved BSG...the end wasn't what I exoected, but it wasn't my story to tell. Lost is the same way...I want them to tell their story, I'll watch it all again no matter how it ends...same as with BSG.
Active LMB character is still Beast Boy.
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I've thought of the BSG ending a lot as I've contemplated Lost's upcoming conclusion, Dev. I still haven't decided whether I like BSG's, though I tend to think more negative thoughts than positive ones overall. I guess you have to give BSG's creators credit for doing what they wanted there, no matter what. Like Lost is likely to do, BSG did not wrap everything up in a perfect bow. We got some character resolution, an end to the central conflict, some mysteries with no definitive answer (especially with Kara Thrace) and a nailing down of the idea that history tends to repeat itself with kind of a mirror on our society at the end. In any case it was a series worthy of our attention and with tons of artistic and dramatic merit. I'd much rather it end the way it did than have it be cancelled before we could see the creators get there, as so many series have.
My guess is my feelings at the end of Lost may be very similar to my feelings at the end of BSG. I fully expect we may have an ending here not totally dissimilar to BSG's. Both have a very spiritual theme to them, so it's kind of a natural.
However, I also fully expect to be surprised! In any case I'm glad the show will make it to its end, whatever that may be.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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Thanks for the compliment. I loved the BSG finale. I thought it was so clever, so moving, it really sticks with me to this day. And I respect those left feeling let down by it. I felt that way about the Kara Thrace thing too, and only after much reflection did I come to some peace of mind about her character -- that she was always (or transformed into) an incarnation of what the ancients called the goddess Aurora. But what seems cool now (and was vexing then) was that her incarnation wasn't a source of omniscience, or even equilibrium. She was still the totally mixed-up Kara Thrace, with the divine flashes of insight to save the human race. Pretty cool, but I totally didn't GET that when watching the show the first several times. I imagine the LOST finale is going to require a lot of reflection and research to GET it, too.
...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
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I liked the BSG finale also, and i even watched the series a second time and you can really see a different show the second time around.
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There you go- an actual sit down conversation explaining the island. Jacob explains his candidates, admits to making the writings on teh cave wall, and even explains the relevance of the cave wall.
Anyone else catch Sawyer's use of the word "FLocke"
Desmond's really having fun in the Sideways. I liked the cameo from a couple of past survivors. And it took 15 episodes, bu we finally got to see Ben get beat up again. Course, his subsquent budding romance grossed me out a bit.
There really was momentum this week. You can feel the story building both in this world and in the Sideways.
Just spouting off.
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I don't know why, but this episode left me a little cold. I think I'm just trying to lower my expectations for the finale. I really wanted it to be something mind-blowing and thought-provoking, but this episode leads me to believe it might be a bit more ... pedestrian. Trying to keep the faith, but I'm wary that this may not be the experience I'm hoping for.
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I liked it quite a bit. Nothing mind-blowing or even really that unexpected, but it was a nice set-up for the finale.
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I really liked it quite a bit too. A great episode to lead into the finale. I find myself totally enthralled with the alternate universe and that was quite an accomplishment since I initially was wary of that whole storyline. Locke's decision with Jack was awesomely portrayed while the Hurley rescue of Desmond / Kate / Sayid just felt cool to me.
The scenes with Jacob and Jack's ultimate volunteering (really sacrificing) was very powerful stuff to me.
Also, when Richard walked outside thinking "he wants me to join him" I knew instantly Richard was dead or at least going to get nailed. Obviously, we the viewers know the MiB only wanted Richard to get the candidates; I'm sure we were all thinking "don't do it Richard!".
Can't wait for Sunday.
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MIB wants to detroy the island, and in the sideways universe the island is destroyed, so whats up with that?
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I'm wondering if we'll end up with a "destroys himself by destroying the island" kind of thing.
What do you guys think about Ben and Widmore? Ben clearly violated "the rules" that they had talked about before. Does Ben have some sort of plan contra the MiB?
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thats the other thing, these rules, rules for who and what? Its one thing to say you broke the rules, and then explain it, but there is no explanation, MIB and Jacob have rules, what are the rules, whats the game? and why do they have rules that are maybe followed by off islanders? vague And they arent the first ones to mention rules, Eloise Whidmore, in the sideways universe, said the same thing to Desmond about the rules.
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So much to love about this episode:
-- the opening on Jack's eye -- the despair on the beach -- Jack stitching up Kate (contra the pilot) -- Kate's emotion, and her mention of Ji Yeon -- Sawyer's barely-restrained emotions about his culpability, and the counterpoint with Jack's role in Juliet's death (amazing!) -- Dr. Linus of the sideways: "I'm making a citizen's arrest!" That was priceless! -- Desmond's Eleven (as the Trib's TV blogger calls it) -- Sayid in the police transport (hilarious)! -- The confrontation between Ben and Widmore (no matter what Ben is up to, he had to make Widmore pay for Alex's murder) -- The chemistry between Ben and Danielle (oo-lah-lah!) -- The fireside chat and Hugo's surprise that everyone sees Jacob -- Jack stepping up to take the mantle. Wonder how long it will last?
Lost manages to combine pathos, suspense and humor in ways few shows have done. I can only hope this episode is predictive of the finale.
...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
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I like a lot about this episode, but please, Jack, what's going through your mind....
"One of us has to stay here on the island forever. Back in the real world, Sawyer is a con man, and Kate is a murderer who got acquitted because the witness got cold feet but never held a real job....Hurley is rich from the lottery but also never held a real job...they need to be allowed to go off the island. I'm just a talented surgeon, I won't be missed...."
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