Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Profem?

that'll be two of us then yeah?

oh and the Mr Bird comment wasn't meant to be snide, there's a banter that has developed amongst my friends were when we're "discussing" something that both sides feel strongly about we call each other Mr, or Ms, "Insert- Surname-Here", apologies for that, re-reading it it did look condescending didn't it? oops! not meant I assure you....

Now, Grey! You're putting far too much importance to my snappy alliterative patter!

I think 'much-maligned' is a pretty apt description of how this story is viewed- and written about in reader comments. Often quite dismissively, I think.

There's more to this story than the profem plot surprise-- no one ever comments on that.

Frankly, the responses have always surprised me, a bit-- though not that it puts me in a minority (of those who like this issue), as that's something that recurs for me again and again... sigh.

It's distressing to me that those who would be in 'my' minority are dwindling more and more. I'm sure those that identify themselves as 'Element Lad' fans would be as split about the events of this issue as is the 'wider' readership... but fewer and fewer of us are around.

No matter what the various new surveys reveal, Element Lad was the character most often voted leader or deputy leader by the fans. I'm afraid most of the folks that voted for him in those reader elections are long gone-- some chased off by the lackluster way Jan was presented in the reboot, others by the reboot itself, and more by the events of LEGION LOST.

The optimistic, hopeful part of me is encouraged by recent preview images and solicits... but, frankly, the older, wiser me realizes the boom might be at the lowering point.

Hmmm- sorry for the ramble...

TN

[MLLASH]
{ Now, Grey! You're putting far too much importance to my snappy alliterative patter! }

You're probably right. I wouldn't have worked well as a lyrics collaborator with, say, Cole Porter. {g}

Still, either supporting or criticizing TMK seems to bring out strong emotions, as Fat Cramer brings up in another thread -- so it's hard to assume that words about them are chosen without their being well-aimed. (Or that they're simply for alliteration.) Well, better those poles of interest than not being passionate about the era at all, I would say.

[Mystery Lad]
{[...] There's more to this story than the profem plot surprise -- no one ever comments on that. }

Yes, there is -- but the ProFem concoction and what it says about Shvaughn create the plot device, and an utterly faulty one, on which the story turns. By analogy, we wouldn't say that Christopher Reeve's riding accident meant that his central nervous system was invalidated ... but he remains no less incapacitated.

{[...] not that it puts me in a minority (of those who like this issue), as that's something that recurs for me again and again ... sigh. }

Why should this depress you, particularly? As long as you are settled in your own mind about it? And as long as others, and you, remain persuadable about such matters?

Having others who agree with you shouldn't be a prime mover. I'd prefer that many others agree with me about the value and virtues of Dawnstar (and a good number do), but that doesn't affect how I see her as a character and artistic icon.

{[...] I'm sure those that identify themselves as 'Element Lad' fans would be as split about the events of this issue as is the 'wider' readership ... but fewer and fewer of us are around. }

I'm not sure I see a basis for your melancholy. If anything, I see more self-identified Jan Arrah fans among Legion net.partisans every year.

Where this has been diluted recently is, as you say, with DnA having turned him into a cosmic genocidal maniac. Many have shied away from this, including you. Perhaps some have also felt they thus can't or shouldn't care about Jan as such any more, either. I doubt that they were strong partisans of him in the first place.

In any event, Jan appears to be positioned for near-term resurrection as something else.

I was shocked to learn that Shvaughn was actually a man, but I quickly recovered from that shock and accepted it. I'm sure that was because of how gracefully Jan handled the news. That said, I would have preferred it if the whole story never happened, but, like real life, things like this do happen and dealing with it is required. I haven't read the story in a long time, so maybe it's time for a refresher. I've long been bothered by the speculation about Jan's sexuality. Okay, he wore pink, he was a "bachelor," he ditched that girl he was dating when a Legion emergency popped up. These are all lame bits of evidence. Jan's relationship with Shvaughn was clearly and obviously a sign that he was heterosexual. I did feel like the ProFem story was a way to bring back the old "Jan's Gay" idea, that's why it shocked me. I'd thought that matter was all settled. Again, Jan came through as being very refined and self assured. At least we have that, because the guy really was yanked around on this issue too much.
I do wish we could have a current Jan Arrah, as evolved and interesting as the preboot.

I have an opinion on the Bounty storyline too!
Although I found it very disturbing, it was a very interesting idea. With all her speed and ability, Dawnstar was unable to prevent herself from being possessed, and altered. This is frightening right now! Bounty used her body to get by for a while, and then was forced to move on, leaving Dawny to recuperate. When she was sick in bed, I felt deep sympathy for her. In fact, aside from her longing for physical love, there was little to sypathize over for her, before. This vulnerability was new. I recall cheering for her to get up, GET UP! when the zombies came to her med bed. Then, she went home and went through that ceremony with her family and emerged healed, though wingless. She wanted to talk with Drake, but never really got a chance. Then, Zero Hour happened....

I found her tale very moving and a bit sad, but it did seem like she was at peace at the end.

Now, let's not get me started on PROTY/GARTH!!!!!

Indeed.

It wasn't my favorite TMK story. In fact it was probably my least favorite.

I didn't see it as something organic to the Jan/Shvaugn storyline, and I didn't see any reason for the story - that is, a mystery solved or a goofy element better explained, or an intersting revelation.

The Proty/Garth story on the other hand worked for me because it did those things - it explained the resurrection story, explained the overall shift in Garth's personality, and it revealed a real twist in Imra's character.

That said, I didn't hate it. I like it a lot better than the blah Jan of the reboot.

I liked it but only in the way that I like hokey silver age stories.

What I didn't like was the really forced Sean/Jan relationship of sorts that followed. How could a writing team who got Vi and Ayla so right get Sean and Jan so wrong?

I'm not depressed-- but finding myself in a minority-within-a-minority has been *way* too much of a constant in my life thus far. It's wearing.

Really? Where? Preboot, Jan would've been in the top three of any favorites poll conducted- easily. Since the reboot-- not even close. Admittedly that's a smallish representation, but it's indicitave of *something*.

I *do* see lots of folk who are fond of preboot Jan. I'll stand by my impression that the pool of those that counted Jan Arrah as their favorite has shrunk since the Levitz days- in proportion to the overall shrinkage of the readership.

1. LOTS of readers quit the Legion with Zero Hour, and still won't read the rebooted Legion.

2. Though they still might be readers, many more have expressed their dissatisfaction for the reboot Jan Arrah. Remember F.O.L? The slam-list they made of characters they wanted dead is practically a blueprint for DNA's plotting. Garth- check. Jan- check. Monstress- check. Zoe- transformed. Ferro- Steepled. Karate Kid- steepled.

3. LEGION LOST. Though I've seen posts from returning readers who skipped the reboot until DNA, I think those that were Jan fans probably don't make up a significant portion of their number.

Uh-huh. I'll believe it when I read it.

TN

Eeep! I hope this is good-hearted discussion. (I really didn't mean to start a fight!)

I found the "Profem" story a bit hard to take. Though after considering Mystery Lad's comment's about Sean taking Profem before meeting Jan, I find it more plausible.

I DID like the "Trommite Cub" story, and the overall story did have a great deal of pathos to it.

If I can swallow post-boot racist Daxamites in the 30st century, I can handle pre-boot homophobic Duarians (Duarimites? Duarozians?)

I suppose the TMK era will alwasy evoke strong emotion. There were parts I loved and parts I hated. Regardless those tales will always be part of the Legion mythos (even with Zero Hour).

Peace and Love,
and LLL.

QL, don't worry sweetie; most of us have 'known' one another for years here... we're not fighting, honest!

You just keep coming up with these good topics!

Fighting among family is inevitable -and rarely ends in a really negative way.

I thought the Proty/Garth idea was inspired and I liked it. I don't understand the VERY strong feelings against it that I often hear.

Here I go....

There are several reasons why I dislike the Proty revelation. The first and worst is that he was just such a LIAR!!!! He took over Garth's body and pretended to be Garth and never told anyone, especially not Imra. He married her and had children with her, all the while, letting everyone think he was really Garth. He WASN'T GARTH, though!!!! He was Proty in Garth's body. It's as bad as Bounty being in Dawnstar's body. He must have figured that no one would figure it out, and they didn't. Which leads me to my next biggest complaint, Imra Ardeen, the most powerful telepath to come from Titan NEVER figured it out? Or did she, but never said anything? It's just a major black-out on her characterization to not have this addressed. I honestly think that Imra would FREAK if she knew how Proty had manipulated everyone's emotions when he did this. She'd feel SO betrayed and embarrassed. That's, of course, my opinion. Now, how 'bout the kids? Proty in Garth's body is the only father they've ever known, so they wouldn't care, deep down, emotionally, but what about on the surface? Their dad was Lightning Lad! A great hero, a Legion Founder. To learn that he's actually a Protean in that hero's body must be a shock and surely a disappointment. I'm sure the mean kids on the school yard would tease, "Your dad's a blob! Your dad's a blob!" Kids can be so cruel. We know xenophobia exists in the 31st.

The other Legionnaires would feel foolish, that they'd been deceived. Some would be more forgiving than others. What would Brainy think?What would Cham think? What would Yera think? What would Vi think? I think we know that Vi would be APPALLED! Especially after what happened to her. Which now leads me to asking what Ayla would think... Twins are supposed to be sort of in tune with each other, and I'd imagine Winathians even more so. When Garth died, I'm sure it threw Ayla off, but it does seem she'd know that it wasn't his soul in that body. She was more in touch with him. She said something like "I sorta knew on some level." Feh! Not good enough.

The public would probably have an outcry against the Proteans. They can't be trusted! They'll impersonate your loved ones! Talk about identity theft! The public wouldn't know who to trust in public office--politicians, police officers, Legionnaires. There'd be new screening technology to be sure that the sentient in question is not actually a Protean. This would spill over to Durlans. Same issues! Now all the work that good Durlans like Cham and Brande and even Yera have done, will be majorly set back!

The only positive thing I can say about this is that it was clever in that shocking way. There are just too many problems with it and it is the #1 main reason why I'm glad there was a reboot!

The Proty business was a bit odd in that Imra (supposedly) never discovered it...I always classified this as a deception and therefore not cool to do to other people - not to mention, could it have had some effect on the children? Not that they get morphing powers, but somehow their minds work differently? Seems like the right thing is to let Mom at least know what's going on....

I heard an interview with a couple, married with kids, and the husband decided he wanted to become a she - so now it's accomplished, and they're still together, it worked out ... but that got me thinking, what would I do with a similar revelation? After fainting from shock, I mean... I think you don't necessarily stop loving somebody because they've deceived you - especially if they've deceived themselves to some extent. Assuming there's nothing malicious involved (like mass murder). Of course, some people couldn't handle the deception - but often, people do, and stay together.

Just thinking about it with this thread, there was an underlying theme to the TMK stories that people were not what they appeared to be. Quite a few characters revealed twists that weren't apparent on the surface, or that had been consciously hidden for years. Dawnstar/Bounty, Celeste (hid her McCauley connection, didn't she?), Garth/Proty, Shvaugn/Sean, Laurel (repressed or hidden love for B5), Furball/Brin ....probably others I can't think of right now.

And all, except Dirk, found acceptance - though even Dirk was still accepted, cared about by his old Legion pals even if they disapproved of his actions. This, to me, is a powerful message about love and friendship, forgiveness and understanding.

deanlegion, this is exactly what I mean about subverting character continuity and contradicting common sense. Pre-TM, Garth was manipulated by the Time Trapper and the Luck Lords, all of whom had intimate knowledge of his past life but saw not a hint of the Proty persona. The near-omniscient Darkseid targeted him and his family as his personal victims but never sensed that Garth was someone other than he claimed to be. Garth had a nervous breakdown and still no Proty emerged, nor did his telepathic wife see anything alien when she entered his subconscious. Neither his sister nor his brother even suspected that something was amiss (despite the retcon dialog you quoted). Finally, never in the 30 years prior to this "revelation" had Garth ever done, said or thought anything that even remotely suggested that an inhuman mind had possessed his body.

In other words, the Bierbaums deliberately sabotaged the efforts of previous creators for shock value, turning heroes into liars in order to titillate jaded Legion fans with unexpected twists. They did not care about the characters we came to love and admire. There was nothing "clever" about it because it made not an iota of sense. And don't get me started on their equally absurd treatment of Sun Boy. Imo, the Bierbaums were a canker sore on Legion continuity. I agree with your assessment that the reboot, for all its problems, came not a moment too soon.

Ah - the very reasons I liked it.

There's a reason that in my Legion Movie Posters I used Far From Heaven as the TMK Garth as Proty story called Far From Antares: I thought it was a perfect parallel.

There are people with secrets in marriages, and there are people - wives let's say - who know these secrets but refuse to acknowledge them. How perfect, I thought, for Imra to be an uber-powerful psychic, but not acknowledge something that she clearly had to know right in her own house.

And that's more or less what I thought the point was: not that Imra didn't know, but that she didn't want to know. This was the hard-ass's achilles' heel - to mix anatomical metaphors.

For all my vehemence on the subject, I must admit your poster was brilliant and VERY funny.

The Profem storyline is certainly not among my all-time favorite storylines, but it did have one profound effect on me: it was the first time that I was ever even remotely interested in the character of Shvaughn Erin. She really just never appealed to me in the past, and it wasn't until she became Sean that I really even cared whether she was in the book or not. She always just felt a little bland to me.

Consequently, it wasn't until TMK that I really cared anything for Dawnstar, either. She never appealed to me in the Levitz years... in fact, she kind of annoyed me. But in TMK I think I felt sorry for her, and was actually a little happy when she pulled herself around toward the end. I think if the series had continued I might even have grown to like her.

Hmm... don't remember that poster. Was it posted at LSH-Pics? Anyway, I suppose another more general complaint I have about Proty/Garth is that the bombshell was just dropped and left there, and then, before any real consequences could be worked out, Zero Hour struck and it all got wiped out anyway. Despite the efforts to bring the Legion back into a recognizable unit before it's end, the last preboot Legion was mostly nothing like what most had come to love over 30 something years.

Hey Dean, it's here: http://www.mondojoe.com/heroes/himages/!!farfromantares.jpg

I posted this and a long list of others in the Outpost section.

It was thinking about the movie Far From Heaven that really made me think that the Garth as Proty thing was so much like a woman being married to a closeted gay man. Not in every way, certainly, but alike enoughin the way that people can livein denial, even supressing the thingsthey pretty much have to know.

Joe, I found your Legion Movies thread here at LegionWorld. Everytime I come here, I find something I hadn't seen before. The poster is terrific.

I totally see your point about a family member living in denial. In fact, that's precisely what I'd have liked to see explored if the story was able to go on. I've written/sketched out my own fanfic about Imra actually confronting the issue. In fact, I've considered several versions. In one she's very angry and leaves him and takes the kids to Quarrantine to all be together without Garth. In another, she allows a Titanian therapy to guide her mind into accepting the news (wouldn't that be nice today?). In another, she goes the route Fat Cramer suggests, where she takes the spiritual approach, emphasizing love and forgiveness. Obviously, I've though about this a lot and have tried to find ways to reconcile it. I've also taken the stance that Imra did indeed know it was Proty all along, and went with it, and kept the secret, but still found herself falling in love with him and accepting the marriage proposal. There was that story in, I think, #236, where they went to Titan to get help in figuring out if leaving the Legion was the right thing to do. I've told myself that that was when she was able to accept Proty as Garth.

I want to acknowledge Tromium Crystal's post about this, too, because the retcon issues brought up there were quite important.

You're right that it made no sense, and all the other evidence you've cited proves it. I guess I'm most willing to give on the Imra aspect. That she either knew and made peace with it, or so staunchly denied it that there was NO way he'd come right out and tell her. The most frustrating thing for me is to try and figure out a way to make it make sense, and I'm finding that impossible. Still, it's canon (Dean ducks and runs from the continuity patrol), so I accept it. Proty comes out a deceiving, lying sneak no matter how he managed to keep the secret all those years.

My theory: It's been a while since I read the LL/Proty storyline (I don't delve back to my V4 issues very often), but could it be that Garth's personality was somehow revived and transferred into Proty? This would in effect make him still Garth but in a protoplasmic body. Thinking as Garth, he would be inclined to believe his form was human, thus would not think to change forms as Proty would. This would also "fool" Imra, as she would read him as her Garth as well. His electric powers would be mental based as well which allowed him to retain his powers upon revival (this would also link to the mental illness he had during his term as leader). Only later in life when the Validus Virus affected him would it be recognized (by himself included) what had actually happened. This would explain how Imra and Garth remained true to each other thru the years, and preserve the integrity of Proty as a self-sacrificing hero.

Canon it may be, but as of 1994 Proty/Garth, Shvaughn/Sean and the other idiocies perpetrated by the Bierbuams are no more true than Clark Kent's identity as Superboy. It's just too bad we can't grant an exception to the Shooter and Levitz stories, and all the other wonderful things about the pre-boot Legion that should have survived the great rift of Zero Hour.

Funny how controversial a little dose of Profem can be.

By-the-by, I don't think it's been mentioned yet in these posts, but Color Kid was the first patient of the "Gender Reversal Germ" idea of Giffen in a story where the Subs and Tenzil Kem take on Pulsar Stargrave.

As can be expected, the Subs are again abused (Giffen's favorite doormats) and a once noble villian is reduced to farcical pulp.