Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine New Star Trek! (spoilers possible in subsequent posts)

Both scenarios might have been considered at one point or another. I believe that Abrams said on Jimmy Fallon a couple of weeks ago that Shatner didn't want to do a cameo, and that to give him a bigger part would require too much of the movie being about him rather than the new cast.

and i think that was basically the gist of what the other guy was saying, bigger part then they were willing to give.

It's hard to imagine Shatner doing ANYTHING these days that wouldn't come across as cheesy. I have great affection for the man, but he has become a single, giant walking hunk of cheese. There are much worse things one could be, especially at Shatner's age. But it would have been a tough fit.

Another fun factoid from my obsessive following on news on the movie: the screenwriters note in a Q&A that the Starfleet Riverside (Iowa) Shipyard was built there in memory of George Kirk and his sacrifice. I don't know how plausible that is (more likely is that there was someone else influential in Starfleet from Iowa who wanted a shipyard there and used George Kirk's heroism to get it), but it's a nice idea that, even with history altered by the arrival of Nero, destiny is acting to put the Enterprise, Jim Kirk's one true love, somewhere we he can't miss it and can't resist being seduced by its promise. Cool stuff.

I'm going to go with, that's acting. After playing Boston Legal for "cheese," the last episode was pure gold. I think he's just playing his stereotype. Seems like a fun guy who really (for all the talk otherwise) doesn't take himself too seriously and has fun with this negative persona he's somehow picked up.

The idea that Shatner didn't want to do a cameo reminds me that Leonard Nimoy passed on "Star Trek: Generations" for a similar reason. That's why Chekov and Scotty got to do a walk-on instead. (Takei and Nichols were reportedly not even asked.)

Starfleet in Iowa - I thought it was a tribute to biofuels.

There was a wire-caged tribble clearly seen and heard in the Delta Vega base, as Scotty's little friend probably would not leave it to die by itself, there is a strong possibility that the new Enterprise may have an early tribble infestation...

There have been some hints of Uhura crushing on Spock in the original series, ("Man Trap" and "Charlie X" being the most obvious) so that was not total heresy. Didn't like how McCoy gave hypos in the neck area (a TNG innovation devised by Gates McFadden) as he almost always used the shoulder/arm in the TOS series.

The main problem was that this Kirk really didn't do anything that heroic in the movie--it was the rest of the crew who did the heavy lifting--McCoy got him on the ship, Uhura made Pike listen to him, Sulu saved him from the Romulans, Chekov performed the emergency beamout while he and Sulu were in the terminal freefall, Scotty effected the transwarp transport and saved the Enterprise from the black hole, and finally, Spock was the one who piloted the Jellyfish into ramming the Romulan mining ship. Other than saving Scotty from drowning and following Spock Prime's advice, what did Kirk actually do that merited the Captaincy of the Starfleet flagship? C'mon, even Wesley Crusher has been more instrumental in saving the day than this new Jim Kirk was...

Well, Korbal, I think you prove your own point. Kirk's job is to command a team of talented professionals. He doesn't HAVE to save the day himself every time. Otherwise, it could just be him on a ship of robots. The great writer for TOS, David Gerrold, often fretted that writers got Kirk wrong. They thought the premise of the show was "Kirk in Danger," when in fact the drama for a ship captain comes from "Kirk Makes a Decision." Even if you want to ignore Kirk saving the Enterprise when it arrived at Vulcan (which he did, even if he need Uhura's help), Kirk makes the decision to fake out Spock, assume command, and take the Enterprise to save Earth. With that command decision, his amazing crew actually figures out a way to do it. What's to complain about?

Proof that there is in 2140 a 140 year old Senior Senator on the Appropriations Committee from Iowa who can really use his clout to bring home the bacon.

I agree. One aspect TOS did not emphasize enough (but TNG, for one, did) was teamwork. The idea that Kirk has to be the one who saves the day gets preposterous after awhile. It also undercuts the credibility of his crew as the best of the best.

The movie took great pains to show us that the others can do more than say "Aye, sir," and "Hailing frequencies open." Standout moments for me were Sulu's swordplay and McCoy's underhanded method of getting Kirk aboard the Enterprise. These scenes show that the crew can think and act for themselves and even take risks that might get them into trouble with the brass. Kirk would be proud.

Okay, I finally saw it with the family and everyone loved it! I haven't read EVERY page on this discussion, but the only thing that bothered me was the destruction of Vulcan and Amanda's death when clearly she was in TOS. I guess it's that alternate timeline thingy.

On the "better waaaay late than never" front, I finally saw Transformers. We saw the preview for the new one before Star Trek, and my wife decided to dial it up on Charter, so we watched it. Never having read or seen any Transformers before (yeah, I'm the one), the best Ican say is, "I've seen Transformers. That, and there's 2:23 of my life I'll never get back." Didn't like it.

Compared to Star Trek, it was underwhelming, for me.

As for saving the ship by delaying the trip to Vulcan, odds are Nero would have not wanted to fully destroy the Enterprise (as he ultimately opted to do) as he knew Spock was on board. And Sure, Kirk issued orders (tinged by additional insight from Spock Prime) give him a medal and a well-earned promotion--but to give a Cadet who hasn't even graduated yet--a full Captaincy, that just does not ring true at all...

Kirk parachuted onto the drill and (with Sulu) fought that battle.

Kirk also put 2+2 together to warn Pike about the ambush.

I thought it was complete crap. I was shocked that it wasn't more panned by Transformers fans than it was, as it seemed to pretty much miss everything that was appealing about that franchise.

I agree about it straining credulity, Kirk going from 0 to 60. I think mainly they wanted to end the movie with each character in the right chair. BUT, here's a few arguments FOR it:

1) We don't see much of Kirk's Academy days (probably just as well), but it's safe to say that he showed off-the-charts command aptitute

2) Much of the Fleet was decimated by Nero and the Narada

3) He really did lead the team that saved Earth and stopped Nero

4) Most importantly, it's alluded to in the film, is a conflict between Pike and others at Starfleet, namely that Pike thinks Starfleet is ossifying and needs to be shaken up. That's why he presses Kirk to enlist. I would imagine that, following the loss of a Federation-founding planet, the destruction of a big part of the fleet and the near-loss of Earth, there was HELL TO PAY for Starfleet brass from the Federation leadership. It would not have eluded the notice of an astute politician that a disgraced cadet figured out that Vulcan was under attack when the entire Fleet intelligence and leaderhip apparatus DIDN'T. I imagine Pike is promoted to Admiral as a CYA face-saving measure by Starfleet brass primarily to mollify the political leadership. And Pike's condition for accepting the admiralty is, "Put my man Kirk in command and let's see what he can do."

I absolutely agree, doublechinner, with what you've said and you're entire attitude!

I just went to see Star Trek today.
I literally, cried through a lot of the first minutes, starting with the introduction and death of Kirk's father, right through, well, lots of places.

I watched the original series when it came out and what a joy it was for a scifi starved kid!

I've watched all of the various ST series over my lifetime, some more faithfully than others.
I'm, what I consider to be, a dignified, non-fanatical Trekkie, who's also read over 100 of the ST books and comics and cards and . . .
:embarrass:!

That being said, I totally accept that the timeline was altered and we're now in another universe, watching another Star Trek play out.

And why not?
Why try to slavishly recreate relationships and circumstances that we've already seen?
ugh!
As soon as I found out that Nero was from the future (NG timewise), I didn't expect anything else.

This story was built off of the last Next Generation movie, (forgive me for so far only reading the first and last page of this thread and possibly repeating ideas already in evidence here.)

And alternate timelines are classic Star Trek.
The concept has been used extensively and very successfully, throughout the franchises' history!

I thought this movie was a wonderful tribute to the original series, in every way.

As far as the women go, I didn't have any trouble with Ryder as Spock's mother. She was exactly, in her very short time on screen, like we've come to know Amanda to be, supportive of and loving toward, her son and husband.
What's wrong with that?

Uhura was strong and loving and smart.
That's how she was originally only now, she's even kissing Spock!
And he's kissing back!

Chapel is already a part of the crew and we'll probably see her in the next movie (and how will she handle Spock and Uhura?).

We already know that pants are an option for the female crew members, that was established in the first series, maybe Christine will wear them (Crusher and Troy certainly did)

Anyway, I loved that Sulu and Checkov got some of the screen time that they always deserved, while Scotty and Bones were perfection, imo.
I'm really happy with the 'ensemble' approach this time, rather than the 'star and company' of the original series.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> Senior Spock was so wonderful. sigh</span></span>

I loved the use of Pike as the original Captain of the Enterprise and Kirk's mentor ~ something that we didn't see at all in 'Menagerie'.

I loved Kirk's altered childhood (seeing his childhood at all is fantastic) and how it has changed who he is.

I'm going to see ST again with my oldest son on Thursday.
I hope I understand and catch even more details and delights.
I'm hooked and happy!
Waaaahoooooooooo!

Went to see it a second time; can't believe I missed the tribble the first time around. I went with my husband, who hated it, but who doesn't like sci fi anyways. Still, I thought he'd get something out of it, besides the popcorn.

The ensemble approach does really add to the story with the secondary characters taking on important parts of the action. I hope that's developed in future movies.

It's an action movie, so I don't expect them to show people relaxing or sleeping in their quarters, but I was trying to figure out the timeline, from the time the Enterprise left for Vulcan up to the time Nero's ship was destroyed. Three days? A week?

i still disagree with the fact that a disgraced cadet became captain, no matter the situation, Starfleet would have to be desperate to take cadets and put them in command situations, starfleet in the new timeline has a problem as far as i am concertned.

Kirk wasn't disgraced, as far as I could tell and he wasn't a cadet.
Everyone who was given commissions were graduates, even Chekov must have been a kid wiz.

Kirk said he would graduate in 3 years and he did.
It was established long ago that Kirk cheated on the 'no win' test and that he didn't believe there WAS a 'no win' situation.

And his 'mutiny' was handled badly by an emotionally unstable Spock.

Kirk SAVED the Earth and all of the rest of the Federation planets, his father was a hero and Pike is influential in Starfleet.
Given that a large section of the fleet was destroyed at Vulcan and field commissions are standard operating procedure in American military (which Starfleet is based on) I don't see any problem with his commission.

Is it standard operations, no, but there was nothing standard about his recruitment or academic performance either.

We knew Kirk was smart, now we know he's brilliant and certainly on an equal footing with Spock, in his own way.

I think it's a challenge to put ourselves, who have seen so many Trek and non-Trek save-the-universe-type stories, fully into the story of this movie and see the events in it as the participants would see it. You have most of the Starfleet off somewhere, doing who knows what, you have the remainder wiped out at Vulcan, you lose an entire inhabited planet and founding member of the Federation, a team of young hotshots ends up in charge of the fleet's new flagship, and instead of making a hash of it, they save the day. For a hidebound Starfleet, that's a magnitude 10 earthquake. And Candle makes the right point -- in the prime timeline AND this one, we knew that Kirk ended up fine in the wake of his Kobayashi Maru "ingenuity."

Kirk wasn't officially "disgraced" since the court didn't have a chance to vote on his expulsion from the academy.

Whether or not he was commissioned and no longer a cadet is less clear. He was supposed to be left behind pending the outcome of the trial; it was only because of McCoy that he got aboard the Enterprise and saved the day.

In any case, Star Trek has a long tradition of showing Kirk breaking rules and coming out on top. The only punishment he ever received was demotion from admiral to captain in ST IV. This was, of course, hardly a punishment at all since he was happier captaining the Enterprise than he ever could be in admininstration.

Perhaps Starfleet is overly permissive toward rulebreakers who achieve results. Perhaps their elightened society favors heroism first and laws second. Perhaps there's a greater "destiny" at work here (e.g., it would be terribly inconvenient and disappointing if Kirk didn't become captain of the Enterprise at the end of the first movie.) All of these reasons make it easier to accept the outcome of the movie even though they wouldn't likely happen in real life.

I still think the biggest barrier to Kirk becoming captain of the Enterprise at 25 is lack of experience. In the TV series, he was in his mid 30s and had served as a junior officer aboard several ships before becoming captain. Kirk could be as brilliant as all get out, but experience would give him competency, self-control, and wisdom.

It was Kirk's THIRD time on the test, after all,which was unheard of.
And he never treated the third time test as anything but a gesture & a point maker, and I don't think he was ever in any danger of being expelled.

Spock and Starfleet were trying to make a point themselves, particularly Spock who was affronted that Kirk would out program him, NOT get rid of him ~ Spock even says as much.
And it was a hearing,not a trial.

Only graduates were given assignments on the various ships, that I can remember. When I see it again, I'll look for that info.
You're probably right and it's not clearly stated.
But most everyone that we see, was originally part of the cadets that were already in the academy 3 years earlier.

Jim was accepted on the bridge by Pike and made second in command by him in a combat situation, which is his right as Captain ~ field commission, again.

Spock probably would have gotten the final assignment if he'd wanted it, but he had been thinking of joining his people on the new Vulcan at that time.
Spock never really enjoyed being a captain anyway.

Would it be good if Kirk had more experience?
Absolutely.
But everyone can't be Will Ryker.


And Spock IS there to help out, which I'm sure Starfleet was happy to allow.

But, yeah, we have to remember that this IS a fictional movie and not a documentary.

Thanks, Candle, for pointing out that it was a hearing and not a trial. I've only seen the movie once and that was a couple of weeks ago, so some details may no longer be sharp in my mind. If I misrepresent anything else, please correct me.

Wasn't Kirk accused of cheating on the Kobayahsi Maru? Cheating is an expulsion offense at any military academy, so it stands to reason that Kirk would have been expelled had he been found guilty.

Sure, Spock was affronted. But his motivation for bringing the charge against Kirk notwithstanding, he may very well have had a point: Kirk did cheat by reprogramming the test. It would be analogous to sneaking into a professor's computer files and reprogramming the final exam so that every question is answered correctly.

You're right, though, about Pike naming Kirk first officer. That would likely have made his commission official (although the same might not have applied to Chakotay and Torres on "Voyager." Both were Maquis rebels when they were given their battlefield commissions. One wonders if they were allowed to remain in Starfleet after Voyager returned home.)

Jim Kirk doesn't have to be Will Riker. A seasoned captain is simply more credible to me than a wunderkind novice.

And yes, Spock is there to help him out, but in this timeline, Spock doesn't seem to have that much more field experience than Kirk. Spock has spent some time teaching at the academy whereas in the Prime Timeline, he served on the Enterprise under Pike for 11 years.

(By the way, another niggle about the timeline changes: In the film, Spock is apparently already a full commander, whereas his rank was given as lieutenant commander during the first few episodes of the original series. It was only with "The Menagerie" that he was referred to as commander, suggesting a promotion. This, I think, is another example of how the new film accerlates things too conveniently so our young heroes can be in their "proper" places.)

It's likely that young Kirk was given unusually advanced responsibility just for the story's sake, but we don't know how Starfleet runs. Pike claimed they were getting stodgy; maybe the brand new Enterprise was his pet project, to staff it with baby officers on the bridge. They set off on a rescue mission, straightforward and uncomplicated, which turned into something much bigger - so in the field, you improvise. Kirk passes the real life test and Pike gets to continue his project.

It would be interesting if, in the sequels, he is portrayed in situations in which he demonstrates his lack of experience but overcomes it with initiative - and the help of his crew, of course.

Another thing, when Chekov says he is 17, I'm inclined now to think he was joking. He knows he looks young and when he gets asked that question, he tosses out an unbelievable answer.

But as I said earlier, he'd already taken the test twice before.
He volunteered to take it 2 times more than anyone else ever did.
And the Koba isn't that kind of test, it's a no win test, a psychological test, not an academic test.
That's why he became a legend in the original timeline for reprograming it, rather then being expelled.
And the

According to 2 timeline change episodes of Voyager, we know that Chelotay retained his Starfleet commission.

The Star Trek time change idea has always been that one change has a ripple effect, changing many little and even some big things that may not seem to be related to the change itself.
That is what has happened here.
Spock was much more accepted by Sarek this time and much less conflicted about who he was.
I think maybe, that's what held him back, original.

But I agree, the young are taking over.
(This happened in one of the other movies, didn't it?