Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine New Star Trek! (spoilers possible in subsequent posts)

This is (pardon the expression) logical.

I'd welcome such a scenario in the next film.

Perhaps, although this makes him even older still than he would have been in the original timeline.

I don't see why it's relevant that he took the test twice before. If anything, this reinforces the idea that Jim doesn't like to lose, but that has nothing to do with him cheating the third time.

As I recall, the purpose of the Kobayashi Maru is to test officers' reactions in a no-win situation. As such, Kirk (as the testee) doesn't get to determine the parameters of the test or the possible outcomes. That's for those who make the test to decide.

In my opinion, the movie doesn't do a good job of showing how Kirk became a legend by cheating. (He did not actually beat the test since he changed the terms of the test.) Rather, it leaves us hanging with the notion that since Kirk saved the day all is forgiven. Awful convenient of Nero to time his attack on Vulcan when he did.

It could be that Kirk became a legend to subsequent generations of cadets, if not with Starfleet itself. Those who cheat and get away with it tend to take on a certain infamy to those who come after.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I may be wrong, but I can't recall off the top of my head storylines where the ripple effect was as great as those depicted in the new film.

As I said in previous posts, I find it very hard to believe that the time change which altered Kirk's life would also change the life of Chekov (making him four years older) and now Spock--people he wouldn't meet for 25 years. There is no logical reason why Sarek would be kinder to Spock in this continuity than he was in the old one.

But was Sarek truly different in the old timeline? We didn't see very much of Spock's childhood or Sarek's relationship with him as a child. We do know that he and Spock did not speak for 18 years after Spock chose to join Starfleet, but, to be fair, nothing like the destruction of Vulcan, the death of Amanda, and Spock's role in the defeat of Nero happened to change Sarek's mind so early on. This, at least, is a "ripple effect" that makes sense.

God help us all.

I may be mistaken, but it seemed like in the Kelvin attack, the bad guys were mostly kinda shooting rocks at the ship (which would make sense) though they obviously had other weapons as well. (I seem to recall someone on the Kelvin saying they had weapons locked on them)

But that's neither here nor there. I just saw the film and these are random thoughts:
-- My biggest gripe was that despite how much I initially enjoyed them tying the new film to old continuity with Spock-Prime, by the end I felt the film was way too self-conscious and I think I would have preferred it if they had just started over with a new continuity, making allusions to the old show as something only fans would understand. (Kirk's Kobayashi Maru test and those brain-bugs being good examples)
-- As everyone seems to be saying, Nero was a paper-thin villain. Too bad.
-- I like the new cast except for Chekov - the accent's a bit too much.
-- I loved the "redshirt moment" with Kirk and Sulu's mission. (although really, if they've got the redshirt security force, why send the ship's pilot?? Oh yeah, I'm not supposed to look too closely for plot holes.
-- As fun as the old Trek allusions were, I loved the JJ Abrams touches -- the giant red ball of liquid from "Alias" and of course Abrams staple Amanda Foreman!!

The funny thing was the guy wasn't a security redshirt. Olsen was the Chief-Engineer with the Manchester accent, nice of him to create a job opening for the Scotsman. Yeah it was all a bit too convenient but hey its an action movie. I thought the viewer got lots of entertainment value for a ticket.

Those crazy Classic-Orthodox-Trekkers who complain about all the Abrams' action movie plot holes would have some major rationalization to do if challenged on all the coincidences in the old Trek movies and shows.

ok i dare to be challenged!

Sulu went along because he was there and said he had combat training.
Fencing.

Which was then a good thing, because swords were the weapon of choice for the Romulans!

That whole playoff was one of my favorite parts of the show.

I also felt that Olsen's inexperienced overconfidence, and their consequences, was very realistic and sad.

As to the weapons, the Romulans had 25 years to install weapons.
And these were ROMULANS!
I can't imagine them having any ships out 'there' without being armed to the teeth.

I'm pretty easy going with Trek, or Legion, timelines, usually.
So the only real problem I had with the show was this:
if I had waited 25 years for Spock and his ship to fall through time, the first thing I would have done was take him and his ship to the Romulus destroying star, BEFORE it went supernova!
Was it 119 years later P Spock said?

That action would have created a time paradox, but one I should have thought Nero would find acceptable.

Anyway, I'm going to see the show again this afternoon and you've all given me lots to think about and look for this time around.
Thanks!

Yeah, I always love this attempt to put detractors (those with opposing viewpoints) on the defensive using words like "fan-boy" or whatever, instead of just positively stating opinions, observations and hopefully an occasional fact.

I guess my POV on "revisionist" attempts, particularly timeline play is why not just write a movie and create your own characters instead of swiping character names from something already established and pretending it's the same? I felt that with Legion, same here. It may be new and it may be entertaining but it's not ST to me.

The slternate timeline of real events is entertaining to me but fictionalizing fiction? It's sillyness to me.

Kobuashi Maru: I think in the "real" ST the reason Kirk became famous for cheating was because it was "new." I think this was my first exposure to the term, "out-of-the-box." I can't recall specifics but I do recall seeing that plot device several times since. Whether ST was the first time it was used....?

Even as far back as Wrath of Khan, Kirk's cheating on the KM test was well established - as was his superiors' reaction to his creative solution.

Yes, he cheated - to make a statement on the no-win concept. Moreover, he openly cheated - he did not have to take the test 3rd time but chose to. Even if Spock and company disapproved, maybe some of the higher-ups (not just Pike) were waiting for someone with that kind of gumption - a test within a test, seeking someone who could color outside the lines.

But I'll grant it (and other aspects) are a big leap from military protocols we know today.

Well, the Federation has always been a lot more cuddly than any military institution we've known - I don't think they even consider it "the military" the way we do. I mean, this is a society that supposedly had no more need for money, so who knows how they operate... (although I don't know how Kirk was supposed to buy a drink for Uhura if they had no money - maybe that was another result of the Superboy Punch time ripple thing...)

Yes, and, as I said, I don't think the film did an adequate job of explaining his superiors' reaction. Otherwise, why would it be necessary to hold a hearing? Why not just slap him on the back and say, "Good job, Jim boy"?

Of course, the hearing was a very dramatic moment--particularly in setting up the tension between Kirk and Spock. Yet it didn't seem to match Kirk's recollection in "Wrath of Khan."

This is certainly plausible.

Sure, and it wouldn't even be an issue except that the trial/hearing, as I remember it, implied that there would be severe consequences if Kirk were found guilty.

Yes, it was suggested that there might have been serious consequences, but certainly not expulsion.
Winning at a no win situation/test, however done, short of killing someone I guess, wouldn't equal expulsion.
I also agree that it mightg have been a test within a test.

When Bones told Kirk that you don't go to the Derby without your prize racehorse, Spock said no you don't, but the horse must be broken, first.
Spock knew Kirk's value to Starfleet, even after Kirk's 'mutiny'.

Picard won at the Koba, too.
However, his solution wasn't to reprogram the test.

You were right, the kids were still called cadets when they went to receive their postings.

The first movie, ST the Motion Picture, had Spock with cadets on a teaching run that turned into the real thing, didn't he?

So the concept of cadets being called on in an emergency isn't a new one for Trek.

I think I agree that the 'kids' have taken over too soon.
I would like to see Pike retained, when he gets out of the wheelchair, or not, to mentor the new captain and crew.
I have always liked Pike and wanted to see more of him.

In the movie about Spock's half brother, I forget his name, we see Spock's birth and Sarek's very negative reaction to the newborn looking 'human'.

Spock and Sarek were at odds on the original ST introduction of he and Amanda, too.
The estrangement was repeated on STNG a number of times, including when Picard shared his memoties of Sarek with Spock in 'Reunification'.

That covers pretty much ALL of Spock's relationship and life with his father, I think.

I didn't see the tribble, but I DID catch that Scotty beamed Archer's beagle somewhere!

I hadn't realized that the original ST characters and stories, were so close to the 'Enterprise' era!

I'd love to see Admiral Archer make a camero, and'or T'Pal.
If Archer is still alive, then T'Pau can't be as old as she appeared in the original ST, could she?


I think it's more fun to have the Federation be so young and NG not be so far from ST ~ it would only be 100 years (about) rather than the 200 years I thought was stated when NG started.

Spock said he was from 129 years in the future, not 119, like I originally thought, too.

I think that Nero might have been a fairly unsatisfactory villian, although he killed 6 billion Vulcans and destroyed 47 Klingon cruisers (their whole fleet?), but maybe that was because he was REALLY just a miner guy who lost everything.

On second look, Nero said that he planned on using the red stuff to destroy that star that threatened Romulus.
Only, he was going to do it AFTER he destroyed all of the Federation planets.
Sadly screwed up values.


Romulus isn't the only home planet of the Romulan Empire, either. There is also Remus, if I remember correctly, which I rarely do anymore.

I confess to befueddlement on the Kobayashi Maru quibbling. It was very clear in STII that he changed the conditions of the test (i.e., cheated) but ultimately got "a commendation for original thinking." I think the new movie deserves great credit for taking that "canon" and fleshing it out here. It's fine to quibble about HOW they did it, but to complain THAT they did it is to complain about some deeply held Trek lore. For myself, I would have preferred that they had some more obvious way that Kirk beat the simulator, i.e., he programmed in a weakness to Klingon shields that he exploited to disable them and rescue the freighter. But that's a minor quibble. The larger issue is really about whether the KM test is useful for training. I think that's what Kirk REALLY wanted to thumb his nose at, and why Spock and some of the higher-ups got their noses so bent out of shape. You can argue that you NEED a no-win simulation to ground cadets in realistic situations and prepare them for failure and loss. You could also argue that it encourages conformist, defeatist thinking in your command cadet cohort. This is clearly Kirk's point of view. In the STII movie, one of the BEST scenes (in my opinion) is when Kirk uses a secret code to disable Khan's ship. This is after Khan has blasted the Enterprise and is demanding Kirk's unconditional surrender. Kirk snatches survival from the jaws of defeat by changing the conditions of the scenario. The point of all this is, that's what Kirk DOES. That's what makes him KIRK, and not some gifted bureaucrat. As McCoy says in STIII, it's what he always does, turn death into a chance for life.

To derail the current debate for a second, did anyone else notice how much Scotty talked about food? I thought it was a needless jab at future Scotty's figure. More notable to me, was the fact that Scotty had previously been shown to be preoccupied by alcohol moreso than food. I don't know if it was a conscious decision to not glorify alcohol, but it wouldn't surprise me. (especially since the new film's being marketed to kids)

I don't know that the original ST era had a no money system.

That was sort of established in NG, but even THEY had the rich and the poor.
Data was bought as a 'trophy' in one episode, by a very rich individual.

Someone said that new characters should be written about rather than rewriting the old.

Sometimes I agree with that, do fresh stuff.

But this time I'm not sure it really applies.
Star Trek HAS writtne new stuff,
There's been 4 new series, multiple movies and zillions of books.

I'd LOVE to see ten years of the original team before they became the crew we knew origianlly.

I also love that this is an alternate universe so that there can be new approaches and situations not coated in iron and set on a pedistal.

I agree totally with DC about the KobaM, too.
It's really a done deal and has been for a long time.

I suppose there must be some reality where Kirk was executed for cheating (I prefer rewriting the program) on the KM but I don't really want to see it.
ugh

Scotty was exiled to an ice planet with the most basic of provisions. I would be fantasizing about a good sandwich, too. I don't think this was some arch-ironic jab at future/past fat Scotty. And I would disagree that the "old" Scotty was alcohol-obsessed. There was one episode where he intentionally drank an alien under the table. And Scotty was justly proud of his native land's eponymous drink. But Scotty was first and foremost passionate about engineering and his ship. In "Trouble with Tribbles," he wants to stay on the Enterprise and read technical manuals, which he describes as "relaxing." But he has a passionate personality, so when he gets diverted from engineering by something else (a drink, a woman) he pursues it with similar gusto. Again, "Trouble with Tribbles" demonstrated this. He was forced to go onto the station to help keep an eye on the Klingons. He doesn't take the bait when the Klingons taunt the crew about Kirk. But when they call the Enterprise "garbage," Scotty starts a giant bar fight. In the context of the 1960s, when drinking hard liquor was a feature of the workplace, the lunch hour, the after-work cocktail hour, and the after-dinner drink, I don't think Scotty was overly lush at all.

Do we know what the consequences would have been, then?

One might speculate that Kirk would have been forced to repeat a year, as Wesley Crusher was, but that's conjecture (as, admittedly, is expulsion).

In any case, the hearing before the entire student body of cadets suggests that the consequences would have been severe indeed.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bones say that to Spock instead of Kirk?

Your interpretation of Spock's response is different than mine. To me, Spock was saying that a stallion (Kirk) is of no use until it is broken in.

That was "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan." In "STTMP," Spock had returned to Starfleet after attempting to undergo the Kolinar ritual.

True, but perhaps Sarek's attitude toward Spock softened as the boy grew up.

Also, that scene from "ST V" has always puzzled me. Spock has a good memory but would even he remember his father's comment immediately after his own birth, or was that was that part of an illusion meant to manipulate Spock's emotions?

I must disagree. We still have seen very little of Spock's childhood, save for the perhaps non-canonical "Yesteryear" of the animated series. There was plenty of opportunity for Sarek and Spock to have a varied relationship--sometimes supportive, sometimes at odds--until Sarek practically sundered their relationship after Spock joined Starfleet.

Also, since Spock does in fact have emotions, I can't help but wonder how much of his childhood memories about his father are a trifle exaggerated. Our parents always look more heroic, smarter, or meaner than they actually are.

Our "first-hand" glimpse of Sarek and the young Spock was quite enlightening. The fact that it differs somewhat from what Spock has previously told us gives us so much room to see their relationship in a new light.

There were occasional references to some kind of money system in the original series. In one episode, Kirk tells Scotty that he's earned his pay for the week. (This, of course, might just be an expression.)

In "Catspaw," Lt. DeSalle, in temporary command of the Enterprise, says something like, "I'll bet you credits to navy beans . . ." which suggests that the unit of currency was credits.

I guess that's my point. I'm quibbling about "how" they did it.

I think you've done an excellent job of analyzing what Kirk's motives might have been. I don't recall if he brought this out in his defense at his hearing, but he should have.

I don't think Kirk had a chance to bring out much about his point of view because the hearing was interrupted.
But I think DC pretty much got the intent.

Thanks for the correction on the cadet inclusion in the wrath of Khan.

Thumbing through the novelization by Alan Dean Foster--Scotty fans relax--the return of Archer's canine in the final page readily proves doubts regarding our favorite engineer's skills are unfounded...

Regarding the Data episode, I don't recall if the dealer was operating within Federation space, so that might explain it. We all know the Ferengi valued money, but i don't think they were in the Federation. I wouldn't doubt that Star Trek has been inconsistent in terms of the need for money, but I was given the impression that the Federation had no money mostly based on "Star Trek IV" when Kirk was unable to pay for pizza and when asked if they had money in the future, Kirk responded that they didn't.

apparantly you dont need to be part of the federation to join Starfleet, nog joined.
just an observation

IIRC, Nog had to be sponsored by Captain Sisko in order to enroll at Starfleet Academy because Ferenginar was not a Federation member.

i stand corrected, thanks Rockhopper Lad