Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine What Will Conservatives Do?

Which leads back to your point of why neither party will reduce military spending. There are polls that suggest that a majority of Americans would support decreases. However, the chances of congress actually doing it are slim. Yesterday, I heard someone refer to Tea Party members as "the more American than America crowd." That kind of super patriotic fervor swings elections. Personally, I think it will take some major event to shake up the status quo, and it's not going to happen this year.

I'm of the belief the only thing that would shake the US government's spending habit is a restructuring of the IMF that would permanently end the use of the US dollar as the world reserve currency.

Of course the last wake up call, the need to end the Bretton Woods accord fixed exchange rate mechanism and the end of the convertability of the reserve currency to gold just made your politicians spend even crazier.

Next time it will be worse. I'm not hopeful, your politics (ie 2 year election cycles) does not lend itself to making hard decisions.

Good insights into debts and deficits, but there doesn't seem to be much, if any, optimism. That's concerning.

What about Immigration policy? On the previous page, Rickshaw expressed the frustrations shared by many over the issue. It looks to be a political winner for conservatives this fall, with strong majorities expressing dissatisfaction with current policies and supporting Arizona's controversial Senate Bill 1070.

But, what happens after the election? President Bush had a proposal for comprehensive immigration reform that included fines and a pathway to citizenship for many that are already here. His proposal also included some increased enforcement measures. This is one of the few issues that I agreed with him on. He wasn't able to gain support from his own party in order to pass the proposal while the Republicans were in power. The Obama administration has made some minor improvements in enforcement measures (deportations, border arrests). He hasn't pushed comprehensive reform with Congress, and congressional Democrats have been afraid to go anywhere near the issue. By the way, Obama made promises during the Presidential campaign that he would pursue this issue.

What will that change if Republicans gain control of both the House and Senate this fall? Most conservatives view the "path to citizenship" as amnesty and want nothing to do with it. No room for compromise. They consistently point out that the federal government has failed to do its job. So, what do they want? Should the federal government try to round up and deport the 13 to 16 million already here? Is that realistic? Wouldn't it be very expensive? What should we do with their children? Deport them with their parents? Put them in foster homes in the United States? Is that family values? Where will the money come from? Should we militarize the border?

It all sounds like pretty scary stuff, to me. Will we just end up with another political stalemate and no real policy changes? What should we expect?

Personally, my main problem with immigration is the hypocrisy of the rich and powerful regarding how it works. Much of our economy appears to be based on the ability of the wealthy and politically well-heeled to exploit undocumented labor. Whether it's domestic work or manual day labor in the landscaping biz.

The people who shout the loudest about Teh Evol Immigrants, so far as I can tell, are the people who reap the most benefits from the shaky status of such laborers.

I might add that it's part of my family history that a relative on Dad's side broke the law to get out of Russia and come to the U.S. Somehow I doubt that's just me, either.

A bonus raspberry to my old Union on the subject. Too many of the people I knew in those days spent more time badmouthing the workers who crossed the border trying to make money for their families than they did badmouthing NAFTA and its countless predecessors. It's pretty obvious when you think about it that if people could make their living at home, they would stay home. But I guess that's too complicated, because then we'd have to point our finger at TPTB, rather than on some random stranger looking for work wherever they can.

So the order of the day remains thinly-veiled racism and punitive behavior against the workers, while the people who engineer their condition laugh all the way to the bank. Same as it ever was.

No, Cle, its not racism when some guy trying to support his family, is uneducated, and from a poor area cant get the only work he knows how to do because the farmer, construction manager, etc... can hire three illegals for the price of him. These same illegals that don't pay taxes other than the monetary tariffs on things like daily food, etc... but can go to the hospital and get treated when needed while the american guy can't go to the dentist for a toothache because he doesn't have insurance and cannot afford to.

When illegals can draw from the federal govenrment more in food stamps, aid, medicade and medicare than the poor american worker makes all month long... and doesn't work, that hurts him and the US. Yes, there are some that come here and all they want to do is work and provide for their family. And they get held up as the "poor, struggling noble immigrant" and its only when the five oclock news needs a shocking lead to boost ratings that you hear about the deplorable conditions they have to travel in using the coyotes, or the gangs that use them to mule their dope, of the families that get here and are used as basic slave labor but called the old "indentured servitude". Its not all sweetness and light. Human sex trafficing, guns, drugs, extortion, rape, murder... there's more to it than the normal face the five o'clock news puts on it to spread "white guilt".

Now, before anyone thinks thats racist, I was a housing inspector and i checked the work of a lot of "illegals" crews, and it was invariably better than the "american" crews. I know a lot of people are looking for a better life and are willing to work hard for it, and I don't think less of them because of where they come from.

But...

go check the immigration laws of Mexico. Go look at how much US currency supports that country as well as our own, money that is sent there illegally, which helps to cripple our economy which supports it. Go check out the arrogance of the Mexican government that was actually going to sue in US courts because the government was putting out water for illegals to drink as they cross the border.

Its all well and good to spout platitudes like "society will be judged by how the treat the least powerful" etc..., but when you wash away the platitudes and get right down to the realities, its a case of the snake eating its own tail. Illegals are swamping states like Arizona, demanding and receiving benefits that they don't earn, and don't put back into the economy with either brain power or sweat equity, and as they demand more, there is less supply, of which they demand more. There's a reason there is no perpetual motion machine, in either reality or economics.

It sucks. Its horrible. but, as long as there is man, there will be those that have more, and those that have less. And when you start taking away from those that have worked and earned to give away to those that haven't, and will we willing to exist on whats given, even if it isn't much, then were is the incentive to work for that that are willing?

Give a helping hand to those willing to work and earn it? Where do I sign up, cause I'm on board. But I dont' feel the need to support those that come here, don't work, don't want to work, want to job the system, and then laugh at us for being so stupid as to do it. No thanks.

Exactly how does an illegal immmigrant get food stamps, Medicaid and Medicare? This is something that gets stated a lot in the discussion of illegal immigrants, yet I have not seen anyone provide the proof to back up this claim.

Illegal immigrants are excluded by federal law from receiving food stamp benefits, federal Medicaid benefits, Social Security benefits, and Medicare. There were also specific exclusions written into the recently passed healthcare reform legislation.

Many who claim that undocumented individuals receive these benefits just aren't aware of the eligibility requirements for the programs. Others believe that these programs are wrought with fraud, and that illegal immigrants access benefits fraudulently.

There is a lot of paperwork involved in applying for these programs. Proof of identity,living arrangements, income and expenses are required. Part of the struggle in administering these programs is trying to balance the need to get the paperwork required to prevent fraud against creating a burden on legally eligible applicants by demanding too much paperwork or documentation. The federal government continually audits the state's verification standards for these cases. States that are found to have "error rates" that are too high face sanctions, and risk losing portions of their federal funding.

In 2006, there was a requirement added that proof of citizenship would be required for Medicaid eligibility. This proof typically is a certified copy of a birth certificate or passport. Now keep in mind, these programs already had proof of identity requirements (typically a picture ID). Supporters of this legislation were sure that it would significantly reduce Medicaid expenditures because so many illegal immigrants were receiving Medicaid. Critics of the new law were afraid that it would create a hardship for people who were legally entitled to the benefits. Both groups turned out to be wrong.

I was managing an office that administered Medicaid benefits when the new requirements went into effect. One of our big concerns was that the requirements would create a hardship for our senior citizen clients. It didn't happen. We sent letters out to our clients and told them to come in on a certain day to bring their proof. I filled our conference room with workers who spent the days inspecting the citizenship documents. The senior citizens had the highest turnout rates of all client groups for the verification events. They were proud to show their birth certificates, and overwhelmingly supported the requirement. (Note: Welfare recipients themselves are some of the most eager to report fraud by people not legally eligible for benefits. Family members of those committing fraud are also frequently the reporters of the abuse).

The new requirements did not significantly impact Medicaid expenditures. The vast majority of those already receiving benefits had no problem producing the documents, and continued to receive their benefits. (Also note: This was in a predominantly Hispanic district). National results were much the same. The group that was most impacted was people who were born out of state and had lost their birth certificates. They sometimes lost their benefits for several months while waiting to get their birth certificate from the state of their birth.

Okay, now here is another part of the dynamic. Children who are born in the United States are citizens, and are therefore legally eligible for food stamp benefits even if their parents aren't legal. This is the so called "anchor baby" dilemma. The amount of food stamp benefits that a family is eligible to receive is based on a formula that considers household size versus income. Members of some households are, at times, not eligible for benefits for other reasons besides being illegal (being felons, past welfare fraud, other source of income). This is handled by prorating the familily's benefit amount by the number of eligible household members. So, it is possible for a family with some illegal immigrants in the household to receive food stamps. The amount is just reduced.

This creates another dilemma. Different states handle it differently. Some states do not allow welfare workers to report illegal immigrants to immigration authorities when they discover them in a household that is receiving benefits. The philosophy is that if families fear applying, it leads to hunger and food insecurity for legally eligible children. Other states, however, require welfare workers to report applicants or household members who are illegal to immigration authorities. This can lead to arrest of the parents, and the children going into foster care.

Having worked with this population for over 20 years, I'm of the definite opinion that most households with illegal immigrants avoid the welfare office at all costs. Their fear of being separated from family members outweighs their desire to receive benefits. Many extended Hispanic families contain members with different immigration statuses. Some are citizens, some are not citizens but are in the United States legally on visas or work permits, and some are illegal. I also believe that this is a community that values family ties over national identity.

and those with fraudulent identification are putting money INTO social security that they are never going to see.

I agree Jerry that they value family connections more than "country". Yet, many have forged paperwork, government officials that come from the same community, and do receive aid. And yes, they do get aid and care at hospitals that use medicade and medicare to cover costs. There is a LOT of fraud going on. My father's doctor at the VA was just fired and lost his license for fraudulent billing.

Just because there are "laws" that prohibit doesn't mean that they don't receive. And they get extra aid when they have legal citizen children here, even if they aren't legal themselves.

I wouldn't deny any child that can't help themselves aid, but... when they shouldn't BE citizens, and are only so because their parents deliberatley illegally entered the country thats another matter.

Like I said, every story that is about individuals will tear at the heart. Thats what individual stories are for. In a way, its a different kind of propaganda than rhetoric for country or state, but its still a form of propaganda.

Enter legally, welcome. Enter illegally, go back and come back legally. It's tough to forget things like the cuban boat lift that brought many good people to the US, but also was a way for castro to empty his prisons. Its not just the poor struggling immigrant that enters illegally. Its also gangs, traffickers, dopers...

No other country in the world has border policies like ours to allow the legal immigration of people to our country. Yet, when the illegal immigration is talked about, we are the evil empire with the death star waiting waiting to zap everyone.

sorry, but I just don't feel guilty for something I don't think I should. And while I feel for the immigrants that are looking for a way to better their lives, starting it off by breaking our laws and then expecting us to pay for it is more than a little outrageous.

go look at some of the policies of mexico regarding someone from outside their country entering theirs illegally. Sending people home? Nothing.

And by the way, yes, there a lots of illegals here, and it would cost a lot to send them back, but its been done before. check history.

are we talking about the irish or the italians here?

rickshaw1 wrote:

[snip]

Quote

...Like I said, every story that is about individuals will tear at the heart...

Eh, not really. I don't put anyone on a pedestal. For me, it's more about disgust at hypocrisy, racism, and classism, than anything else.

I've worked a couple of temp jobs where it was pretty obvious that plenty of the people in charge were making money by looking the other way when illegal workers came calling, because their bottom line said, "Money is money."
Yet little if anything ever seems to happen to the people in charge, and I'll wager that they're the ones shouting the loudest about lawbreakers when the rest of us are in earshot.

Thank You!

rickshaw1 wrote:

[snip]

Quote

...No, Cle, its not racism when some guy trying to support his family, is uneducated, and from a poor area cant get the only work he knows how to do because the farmer, construction manager, etc... can hire three illegals for the price of him...

[raises eyebrow]

Do tell. So who held a gun to Mr or Ms Manager's head and forced them to prize their bottom line above all else? Did the illegal workers force this on the poor innocent, helpless bosses? Did they use some kind of Universo-like Evol Furriner mind control?

:rolleyes:

Individuals born in the United States are guaranteed citizenship by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution:

FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution]
'SECTION 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I believe that if conservatives come back into power, they will launch efforts to repeal or revise this amendment. I predict those efforts will fail since the Constitution is so difficult to change.

And it would be very like conservatives to push for this kind of thing knowing full well that it'll fail-- but not minding because success isn't the point. Salesmanship is. (Besides, plenty of wealthy Right wingers and their bankrollers are probably secretly enamored of cheap imported labor and aren't likely in any real hurry to give it up.)

I'll say this for the American Right's leadership: they love to get their True Believers stirred up. What passes for the American Left's leadership (ie-- Democrats) seems much more interested in repeatedly and openly kicking its True Believers in the face than it is in even pretending to cater to their values.

The Swiss. Those sneaky bastages...

Yes yes, I know, evil people putting money over other things. And, it happens. I didn't say I agreed with it, or thought it was right. I simply said it takes place.

Except.... Most immigrants that are here illegally aren't paying much into the system even if they are ILLEGALLY USING SOMEONE ELSE'S ID to "pay social security" because the mostly have low paying minimum wage or little better jobs using those fake or Stolen ID's. And despite what the holy rightous Dems put out there, poor america doesn't pay nearly the taxes rich america does, they just pay more as a group because its a much larger group.

Still lets look at it this way. They are here illegally. Consider it a fee for the freedom here to illegally earn a much better living than in their home country. I pay fees to the government all the time. Why not them since they are reaping the benefits according to the left?

Damn Irish immigrants!



*Ducks from plate thrown by half irish wife.

Trouble is: the way that you write it, the primary actor/agent is the illegal worker. IRL, there are multiple actors/agents involved in the transaction. Only one of them is the illegal worker, and s/he incidentally has the least power of every other actor/agent in the equation.

Seriously. I see this all the time in these debates, and it's effing tiresome. Probably because I'm one of those smelly Red Anarcho-Commie Green goofballs and we tend to have weird ideas about things. For example, I figure that in any given exercise of power, those who hold more power are more responsible for the way the transaction goes.

Yeah, I know. Nutty, isn't it?

It's funny that several years back, Kinky Friedman ran as a 3rd Party candidate for Governor of Texas, and his platform was strongly against illegal labor. But Friedman was blunt in stating that businesses that hire illegal workers should be punished in a signifigant manner for breaking the law.

Interesting how few supposed champions of Law & Order and of the poor, suffering American worker supported his stance, and how little national media coverage it got.

Could it be that for all their yammering about Teh Evol Aliens, the supposed champions of Law & Order don't actually want reform on that front? Because reform would mean that Americans, who are an integral part of keeping the market for illegal labor going, would find themselves punished for breaking the law, too? Could it be that bosses knowingly exploit illegal workers because they are an excellent club with which to beat on poorer American citizens? Bawwww... it's not our fault that you can't find a job with a living wage! Look over there!! Those evil Mexicans! It's their fault!! Hate them!! Punish them!!



Hypocrisy sucks and so do manipulative bullies.

The only punishment that will make people stand up is a monetary one. I think cleome is right--businesses and private individuals found using illegal immigrants should be fined the total amount an annual minimum wage tax would have been for each worker. (With some more complexity in the calculation).

The illegal immigrants too should be fined and forced to undergo the legal immigration process. Deport them all back?Ha. We know that will never happen. So long as the Gov gets it's $$, that's the most that can and will ever be done.

My great grandfather illegally immigrated from Ireland--he was an IRA member who hid in a ship's coal supply area. Not only was he illegal, he was wanted in Great Britain for running guns (many other members of my family were caught and sent to a penal colony in Australia). He lived and died in the US and only when he died did the Gov ever get around to asking about his status. I'm the first of his descendants to ever go & graduate college. I think this story will be very similar to other stories over the next few generations. There's still plenty of room in the US for everyone. People will always immigrate here, and it's only when they stop that we know this country has gone horribly wrong.

As far as immigration goes, I've always been suspicious of the entire pretence that underlies our immigration system, namely that government bureaucrats, in their infinite wisdom, can sit around making decisions like "Well, this year we need x number of people with skill set y from country z" and then ensure that all and only those people actually enter the country.

In principle, I'd favor completely unrestricted immigration. Then we can eliminate the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants, and we'd have only the distinction between citizens and immigrants. Then make everyone subject to the same wage laws, and you eliminate the ability to hire "illegals" at lower wages (note you lose the whole class of immigrants with fear of being deported if they complain about their employers in this scenario). Then they are competing with citizens on an even playing field, and, at that point, if an immigrant can do better work than a citizen as the same wage, then why wouldn't we want *them* doing the job instead?

One would think if conservatives actually cared about things like "less government" and "free markets", something like this would be their position (considering that it's basically the position of classical free market thinkers). But pretty much every self-proclaimed "conservative" I know suddenly becomes all gung-ho in favor of more government regulation and centralized planning (you know, "socialism") when it comes to this issue, which puzzles me to no end.

There's another important part to the story, of course, which is the fact that Mexico is in pretty horrendous shape. As long as we've got something bordering on being a failed state on our Southern border, we're going to have a problem of people wanting to flee that country for ours (as well as violence spilling over from there to here), and they're going to find a way to get in, no matter what we do to try to stop them. I'm not sure exactly what *we* can do to fix Mexico, but I do think it makes more sense to try deal with that as the root cause of most of our "immigration problem" rather than focusing on proposals that only try to deal with the symptons of the problem.

Actually, there is something we can do and we're doing it. We're having an increase in unemployment, and wouldn't you know it, immigration is going down, too.

They come here for jobs, opportunities. If there are fewer jobs, fewer opportunities, then guess what? Fewer immigrants will want to come here.

Here's the problem with that. You could give mexico every bit of the wealth that the US has, and when you were done, Mexico would still be in the same sad shape, and the US would be broke.

Why do you think the parks service charges a nominal amount to use the parks? Because anything that is free is inherently valueless to those that use it. If someone doesn't have to work for it, it has no value. It has no value because little to no time has been spent gaining it. Which means that there is no equity, either through sweat of muscles or sweat of brow.

I went to college for a year. Honestly, i farted around because I really didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and it wasn't costing me or my family anything. And the effort I put into my grades showed it.

Then, I left school and entered the "real" world. Suddenly, 14 to 18 hour days (No joke there) for minimum wages (a little over $3.00 at the time) and no money left over for a life punched me in the face. I went back to school on my own and paid my own way. It was amazing how focused I was on my goal (Two deans lists on the way to my degree). I worked for it. I earned it. It meant something to me.

Mexico's problems have to be theirs. they have to own them to be willing to do something to change them. The world has what...six...seven billion people in it. And yet 200 million out of 350 million are expected to bear the costs for four to five billion?

those numbers just don't add up.

Open borders are great, as long as all borders are open. Otherwise, you don't have a real free market economy, you have a constricted, funnelled micro-economy in a rigidly structured world wide economy. And that will fail.