Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! LSH 45 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ SPOILERS!

Except, haven't we already seen in the Threeboot, Invisible Kid caught in the middle of such a dilemma (albeit non-sexual) where he is forced to decide between siding with one Legionnaire against another?

Exactly! This makes it tougher for him, because it didn't turn out well for him the first time, so now what's he going to do?

What Imra did was *irrational*. Some fitting definitions are: “Not endowed with normal reason”. “Marked by the loss of usual mental clarity and sound judgment”.

Seeking logical motives for someone’s irrational behavior or complaining they are acting out of character is kind of beside the point. Of course they are behaving out of character -- that’s what “irrational” means. Even strong, smart, comptent people like Imra are capable of doing unbelievably stupid and harmful things they can’t explain to anyone, much less to themselves.

Imo, the story isn’t what drove Imra to cheat on her boyfriend with someone she knows is a scumbag swine or if she gets caught (she does), but how she carries the consequences of her actions. This is going to be a test of her character – possibly the toughest she’s ever had.

It’s probably also a test of Lightning Lad’s strength of character, which thus far has been open to question. I can’t vouch for Imra but I’m fairly confident he’ll pass the test, as heartbreaking as it will be for him. What doesn’t kill you can make you stronger.

I don't think there will be any serious or lasting consequences for Jo, whose just acting here as an amoral agent of chaos. He'd hump anything vaguely humanoid that had one head and two boobs -- but that's been his characterization all along, like it or not.

I don't find any good basis for her to succumb to this irrational behavior though. Before this issue, all we see is some strain in their relationship over his leadership duties (in the creepy "submissive" conversation), and then off to her leading a harrowing mission to Rimbor. But it isn't until this issue that we see her with self-esteem issues and vulnerable (and/or willing) to be taken advantage of over it. That's not Saturn Girl. It just doesn't fly.

In prior versions of the story, we had original Imra trapped on an asteroid after her team was knocked around by the Khunds, almost started a war, convinced she and her teammates were done for, and then succumbing to the only comfort she had left (Timber Wolf). In Legion Lost, we had her cracking under the pressures of leadership, prolonged use of her powers and an extended period of time impersonating Ultra Boy's Wife. Both of those were extreme situations that drive people to irrational but understandable actions. I see nothing here that even comes close.

I'm also a little perturbed that the two characters that break down after this mission are the females (Atom Girl and Imra), while the guys shrug it off and get on with oggling Shadow Lass and comforting the women folk. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

if we use 'irrational' as an excuse, then shooter could just have the characters do anything forever and ever and never get called on it? no, doesn't work that way. and he doesn't get any points for making the GIRLS the only ones that are 'irrational' here.

and yes i do find a representation of the "no means yes" model. she's very clearly threatened by his presence and specifically by his sexual thoughts about her. even more gross when we consider that she's already feeling violated by him suddenly bringing to light her psychoses. being both psychologically and sexually threatened in this situation she repeatedly tells him to shut up, go away, that she would never do "that" (have sex with him, being the implication i think we can ALL agree, yes?). she also says to stop looking at her, and reminds him that she has a significant other.

jo shows an understanding that she's saying 'no, i don't want to have sex with you" when he replies that "don't worry" he doesn't mess around with other guys' girls. which is OH SO WONDERFUL, so if she didn't have a boyfriend, it would be ultra-rape time, jo? just... awesome.

BUT JO DOES MESS AROUND WITH "OTHER GUYS' GIRLS". (note that imra's categorize in jo's mind as belonging to someone else, not 'i don't mess around with girls that say no and tell me repeatedly to go away'). but don't worry, reader, shooter has thought of this, and makes sure that imra realizes that, even though jo's been a giant jerk to her and much too personable with an extra helping of CREEPY, that she totally DOES wnat to have sex with him. even though she just said "no" in a billion different ways. i mean girls don't know what they want, right?

you know what? think about if jo was your coworker. imagine some big dude comes up to you, in the middle of an earthquake, and starts claiming you have all these psychological problems, starts telling you how sexy you are, that your boyfriend sucks. you repeatedly tell him to go away, that he's creeping you out. do you think that would actually end with making out in the pantry?

you know he ALMOST had me. ALMOST. when jo started out by following her there and calling her out and saying her boyfriend is sucking really hard. so he saw she was upset, so she followed to make sure she was ok? awesome! billion points more than garth, right? he's paying attention to her, and they ALMOST start to have a conversation.

but... no. no. it spirals into "don't worry imra, i think you're HOT." UGHGGHH "WHAT REALLY?" "hey lets go have sex" "no WAY you're so gross!....wait. okay."

*sobs* blehhhh ;_; i would be so much more "seduced" by jo if he'd been TALKING WITH HER instead of AT HER. if he'd kept asking what was up with her and garth. if they'd had a NICE, CUTE conversation and then ended up making out? i'd be ALL FOR IT. but if imra just wants someone to tell her she's hot and have sex with her, ANY OF THE PEOPLE ON HER TEAM CAN DO THAT. PROBABLY IN A BETTER MANNER. SEEING AS HOW SHE'S SUPER HOT?!!

i want the next panel at the end to be lyle just taking pictures with his ring. "blackmail time :0"

veryvery,

A good detailed analysis. Summed up: Bad writing.

Well said veryvery

Or a badly skewed review. To each its own. I find their portraits quite on the mark, much more teenager-like than Archie Legion (which was two-dimensional) and better than Waid's everybody-is-the-same-save-for-nickname characterization. They are supposed to act hormonal, irrational, extreme... They are adolescents! They are supposed to be doubtful, exaggerated and sometimes plain dumb.
Adriana, sometimes you are placing yourself AS the character, such as "if I were there, I wouldn't be doing that or none of my friends". Rouge: this is not Archie Legion Imra. Shooter is free to do a brand new Imra for all we know about threeboot - there is no canon.
Off-character is Ron Marz doing Green Lantern. Or Brad Meltzer doing Blue Beetle on Identity Crisis. Here, they changed everything about an existing character by butchering or ignoring whatever came before. Hardly Shooter's case.

He certainly is, and I am free to think it's a bad character, just as you are free to (repeatedly) denounce the Post-ZH stuff. I just think it's sad that in @ four years this Legion has devolved into a bunch of characters I would gladly toss out the air-lock in favour of Johns' versions. I had high hopes for this reboot and it pains me to see sales drop off like this, but if this is the continued direction, I'd rather see it put to pasture to make way for something more palatable.

Saturn Girl threatened by Ultra Boy's presence?

Never.

I grant you that some of the stuff he said bothered her. And he was clearly being a jerk, and I have a hard time imagining any Imra I've ever read going for a guy like that. But 'threatened'? No way.

(By which I don't mean that Ultra Boy couldn't be threatening; I'm sure he could. I just can't think of a Legionnaire that Saturn Girl *would* ever feel threatened by.)

I'm so annoyed. I just went to my local comic shop and LSH #45 sold out in less than a day. That never happens. Now I have to wait until extra copies come in next week.

I consider this the downside of Lo3W.

Actually, sales are up 8% last month, the highest since the return of Shooter. And I bet it will come up even more this month.
I do give you credit for not enjoying the threeboot - the concept is deeply flawed. Shooter - IMO - saved it by giving character some 3D personalities (that means heroes with moral issues? Yes!). Maybe - maybe - he would hit better if given the original team to deal with.
By the way, so far, Johns has given NO direction for Legion. As much as L3W is good, it has hardly been a Legion story.

I beg to differ. It's very much Saturn Girl - her darkest potential fulfilled.

Imra's a great character because of her moral ambiguity, not in spite of it. Geoff Johns does her a great injustice reducing her to the embodiement of "Truth". That's so wrong. She's a woman who never understood her own mind and heart despite being privy to others. Shooter's obviously read the Asteroid scene with Timber Wolf and the kiss with Ultra Boy in Legion Lost, and asked himself "what if they hadn't been interrupted before going to far?" Certainly, those Imras contemplated (if only fleetingly) doing the dirty deed but were pulled back brink of no return by their writers. Shooter is letting *his* Imra go one step beyond and over the brink.

They are really not so very different from one another, those three Imras. They all turned into basket cases when faced with a crise de coeur and sought comfort in the arms of men who did not love her. They had moments of emotional vulnerability and flirted with self-destructive impluses. All she (collectively speaking) needed was a writer unafraid to let her take that final, fatal step, and examine the painful consequences of her mistake. For years, we've been asking ourselves "Will she, or won't she?" Well, she finally did and now we get to read the story everyone else was afraid to write, but had to be written. Imo.

Bad writing and bad characterization is in the mind of the beholder, I guess. What I'm seeing is a very good writer getting under our skin and making us feel dreadfully uncomfortable for a character who's made a horrible mistake of judgment -- a mistake she's been moving towards for decades over three continuities. Painful as it is, I say it's time we get to see her plunge into the abyss that's been waiting for her so long, and watch as she tries to struggle her way out of it.

If you don't believe Imra can make it back, I think you you know her less well than Shooter does.

Ricardo,

It is not a matter of whether the sales are up or down. rogue, veryvery, & myself have expressed our opinion that the whole scene of Saturn Girl & Ultra Boy was bad. Again - our opinion. Yours is different.

And Lof3W has only had one issue. The whole mini-series is the story.

ricardo: 1) kindly stop referring to me by my first name.

2) stop discrediting everything i say with "oh this is just biased because you hate shooter". i give very detailed explanations of why something doesn't make logical sense to me, thank you very much, and why i consider it bad. you saying "no this character is three dimensional" means nothing if you can't give some examples of whatever's making you think these characters have depth. you're welcome to your opinion but please stop acting like what i say has no correlation to what's going on in the story as if i have no reasoning. in fact, YOU are the one who suffers froma lack of reasoning and it's getting on my nerves that most of your replies to anything i say are "no, this is great, you just hate him".

1) Will do.

2) I didn't say biased against Shooter AT ANY MOMENT. I said I think you are biased towards yourself. Just that. Go read again my message and you will see. Maybe you were thinking about Superboy. By the way, I said I think Shooter is working with MORAL AMBIGUITIES and FLAWS - a point Tromium so much clearer explained later. It's hardly "this is great" for greatness sake. Don't take it personal - I never did. I actually enjoy your opposing views as to why some of my favorite books are failing to grab new readers. Very different perspectives on what makes a good book, a good character and developing plots.

I haven't read the issue for the reasons I've already mentioned, but I wanted to offer some thoughts on the moral ambiguities, which I've discussed in earlier threads.

One of the things that I believe is troubling a lot of readers is that individual Legionnaires have never really been portrayed as morally ambiguous. In the pre-boot, members of the Legion rarely did anything "wrong" and, typically, when they did, it was because they were insane (Braniac 5), had little other alternative (Star Boy), were being forced against their will (Colossal Boy), or were trying to trick the bad guys (too many to mention). In other words, immoral conduct was usually explainable. Rarely did the characters ever have to actually deal with the consequences of significant errors of judgment, particularly vis a vis other Legionnaires. That was a significant part of the rosy future. Admittedly, there was some effort to mature the book during 5YL, but, imo, the "darkness" during that time period was focused more on the universe around the Legionnaires. The Legion members themselves rarely ever made bad moral decisions. Look, for instance, at Venado Bay. One Legionnaire nearly killed another, but instead of that being a conscious decision to put planet over former teammate -- a decision fraught with ramifications -- it was an unknowing action.

Or consider what was probably the biggest morally questionable decision -- Projectra's decision to break Nemesis Kid's neck. That was barely addressed.

The Reboot and Legion Lost also could tried to give a "darker" Legion, but they still made the Legionnaires the moral compass for the universe. As Tromium pointed out,

The Threeboot Legion has forced the members to make more difficult choices. During the Waid run, however, those were primarily decisions directed outside the Legion, and most were made by Rokk (who promptly disappeared) and Brainy (whose conduct is given a shrug because morals don't really factor into his thinking).

But since Shooter has taken over, we have seen a lot of morally ambiguous behavior. Look at the debate when Imra took control of Brin. Brin was the first Legionnaire to ask Imra to use her power on non-Legionnaires. Then, other members were fine with her doing the same on the SPs.

That type of behavior seems far more in-line with who and what the Legionnaires are supposed to be. They are teenagers from diverse backgrounds. They are not mature adults who are all going to have the perfect morals of Eagle Scouts. They are going to make bad decisions, sometimes in ways that hurt one another.

Consider the way Shady and Brin criticized Invisible Kid. That was typical bullying behavior by the "strong" toward the supposedly "weak." We may not like it, but it does feel a lot more realistic to me than if everyone in the Legion was best friends, didn't have cliques, and rarely made value judgments about one another.

Frankly, if the Legion does not build characters with three dimensions and realistic personalities, it cannot survive in the modern world of comic books. Now, I'm not hoping that the Legion suddenly become a group where key characters go insane and destroy worlds or decide to betray the Legion for no apparent reason. I'm just appreciating the depth that Shooter has added to the characters, and that includes the depth that comes with characters making bad -- even irrational -- decisions and having to deal with the repercussions of them.

Finally, I would point out that we have not seen that much of the Imra/Garth relationship in the Threeboot. Other than knowing they were a couple, do we have any sense of: (1) how long they have been together; (2) how strong their relationship is; and (3) what is the basis of their relationship. I think a lot of people are upset about the new development because it is Imra and Garth, who are sacred cows in Legion fandom. Arguably, the Projectra/Brin relationship is as developed as the Garth/Imra one, but I doubt there would be this much of an outcry if one of them cheated on the other.

I have to say that I really enjoyed this issue. In fact, it was the first Shooter issue I found myself really getting into since he started writing the title. It was fun, I was really enjoying the interaction of Brainy's team with the techs and Garth's with the UP leadership. I very much enjoyed the Gim/Vi interaction. It was the most character development either have had for months (possibly years at this point).

Then I got to the Imra/Jo scenes. Ugh. I pretty much agree with veryvery, Quislet and rouge on this. I mean jeez, Shooter really seems to be obsessed with sex. Waid used it early on, but as a dash here and there and not as in your face.

He is also making an Ultra-Boy incredibly un-likeable this run. I haven't liked him at all this run, but now he has just gone over an edge for me to be a complete asshole. I don't know if that is the "in thing" with comics again, to have streetwise anti-heroes, but I certainly don't care for it.

At this point, I am enjoying Projectra's problems more than Jo's being an ass.

Reckless,

Good points. However I disagree about this being a good example of showing moral ambiguity. The scene and issue of Saturn Girl using mind control and dwelving into people's thoughts was handled good. It definitely seemed in character for Saturn Girl. This I don't think was. It was done too quickly. It seemed unbelievable that someone supposedly exhausted from a previous mission and in a relationship would so quickly have sex with someone else. And I doubt "You think you aren't pretty and you aren't, but I like how you look" is a really successful pick-up line. Especially given the fact that Irma is pretty.

I don't mind moral ambiguity, but this just falls too flat for me.

Yeah after reading it again that's the only thing that makes sense. When I first read it though I simply didn't think it was that out of character for Brainy to react the way he did.

I missed a few things on the first read, like also that Ayala didn't have anything to do with Brainy attempting the save again...I think I missed a lot of stuff because I enjoyed the issue so much I didn't really analyze it much at the time I was reading it....


Oh my .02 on Garth and Imra...I don't really like what Imra did, at the same time, that is one relationship I personally am burnt out on. I think it hurts both characters that they are just assumed to be togther in every incarnation....breaking them up is one of my favorite things Shooter has done if only for the sake of making things a little less predictable.

on a second look through I noticed someone holding a sign that said the end is near(when Projectra and Phantom Girl are flying over the city. the sign was written in english and not Interlac. I suppose the better in joke would be for the sign to be in interlac, but oh well.

and the Bludgeon Brothers reminded me of Marvel's Blood Brothers.

Imperatrix. So I am guessing the being on that planet is female.

Could be a big rabbit.

a lot going on this issue. my main take away was, geez i'm not sure i like these people.
i agree with everyone who feels Imra was acting way out of character. it isn't how i think of S.G. in any 'boot. she's always been the type A legionnaire, always on duty to the neglect of personal. it's shocking that she would say no to a team mission. shooter is playing with that and showing how it's taking it's toll on her. is she having a bit of a nervous breakdown?
i could characterize what's happening with Projectra the same way. she's barely recognizable as the same character let alone a hero. Atom Girl is also rude and unbalanced.
i was shocked at Element Lad calling LL an idiot. that doesn't sound like Jan in any 'boot. i thought that Lightning Lad was unbelievably uncaring when his lover is admitting she is too exhausted to go on duty and needs a break. and what was all his moony eyed flirting with the president? isn't she middle aged?
Ultra Boy is a jerk and i'm sick of him. wish he'd fall in love with Tinya or something.
my original hope was that shooter had some sort of reason for first Projectra, then Timber Wolf, then Saturn Girl losing control. some sort of evil force infiltrating the legion...
now i'm not so sure.
SG and UB naked in the pantry was over the top. even horny teenagers would go to their room if things got that hot and heavy. taking off his flight ring and missing emergency calls would seem to me to be grounds for getting kicked out of the group. i thought that someone's idea on this board that Jo had ultra-energy pheromones was a great one, but that doesn't really explain Imra's lack of self esteem over her looks of all things. weird.
please let Imperatrix be affecting their personalities!!!

I can think of a lot of students from my former college whose conduct in the library stacks would disprove that theory.

imperatrix sounds an awful lot like....Imperiex? liek to the point where if it's NOT him or something LIKE him i'll be very...confused.