Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine Dear God let election day be over!

Ditto in response to prime.

*edited for clarification as to which part i was smiling about, lol.

Mandate is a bullcrap term anyway. The leader elected is the one that pursues his agenda. It is what it is.

Rickshaw, I'm just not in the mood to debate the issues I've been debating for months now. I'm telling you how many of us feel and that something needs to be done to make things a LOT more clear to us.

I always oppose violence. I'm very angry but today is NOT the day to continue the idealogical conflict in our country. Did the rest of my post not even register?

I agree rickshaw, I only brought it up in the first place because I found it funny that all of the sudden a race that was "too close to call" all night becomes a "mandate from the people" once Kerry decided not to persue a count of provisional ballots.

Interesting how you don't feel I, or other non-Americans, have the right to an opinion about the current state of affairs in America, because I am not an American citizen (although I've lived in this country for 22 years and am deeply affected by it.) It's not the first time I've faced this type of reaction when I've expressed disenchantment with the American government or American policy. Xenophobia seems to come up all too quickly as the first line of defense. And as you have demonstrated, it cuts across all political perusuasions. Now I expect that you will counter that I was not expressing an opinion, but "calling Americans" names. Whatever, my opinion is that half of the voters in this country are mean and have expressed it by re-electing a man and a party that has alienated virtually every other country in the world. There is a scary undercurrent to this vote that has many people in the world and this country very worried. I speak for many who feel less safe with Bush in the White House. Rather than combatting terrorism, I feel that his policies increase the chances of it. This is my opinion, and I will express it in the way I chose to do so, Jeff, whether you like it or not.

How you feel is fine, Yellow and Semi. No problem. But we feel that the rest of the world lives in denial about quite a bit. And as much as we aren't going to change you, or your opinions of "violence", you aren't going to chance ours. Feel good coombaya didn't depose Hitler, Saddam, Castro, Kadafi, etc... whether you want to believe it or not.

No hard feelings on my part. Your feelings are fine. But not expecting us to express ours while you express yours is unrealistic.

And Xenophobia extends both ways. Europeans have for years given us the impression that we are lesser because we are a newer country, that we don't have the 'history', etc...

I hear in movies all the time "stupid americans", its in commercial, like the dockers ad with the guy in paris... removing the blinders on both sides seems to be in order.

And many of us find it hard to reconcile that european governments are willing to regularly sacrifice the lives of their people to keep terrorism at 'managable levels'. That is far more cold blooded to many of us that fighting to stop the culture of death.

But like you say, perhaps we should give it a rest, and let both sides cool off.

I can agree with that.

I hate to say this, but I really don't see the Republican Party reaching out and trying to include everyone. Bush and his government will continue to "improve" America with a domestic policy that will be partially based from a religious ground. We will continue to alienate the rest of the world by steamrollering our worldview with out really understanding or wanting to hear anyone else's point of view.

The biggest thing I had against Bush was his stance of making a constitutional amendment to define marriage as only being between a man and women. I hated that he would go to religious groups during campaigning and make that pledge. And I just don't understand why? Why are religious leaders and conservatives so afraid of homosexuality? Don't be hiding behind religion and Christianity. Church leaders and clergy preaching that God loves everyone great and small no matter what...except if you don't believe in him or your gay then you are automatically going to hell and a sinner. How do those to things fit together? Love all but hate what I have told you. That is what bugs me the most. I am not saying religion is bad. It has a place in our lives, mainly in our spirituality, but not in shaping our governmental polices like what marriage is. Not all of us are Christians and while we do share similar values, I don’t my life governed by your spiritual beliefs –which is something I feel Bush has done. If he wants to represent the American people, then he has to represent all the American people- old or young, white, black, brown, straight or gay, rich and poor. He has to step above himself and see the bigger picture for everyone. And to me he hasn’t.

I am sorry that you feel that way. But how is that any different from Bush using God to justify his actions and decisions? If you think that gays are telling you what way to think then how is that different from Bush telling you what to think?

For some of you this is a moot point. That there are larger issues like the war, the economy, and security. But for others, this is a very important matter. I find it an important matter and it will remain an important matter. All I see is America closing up becoming much less tolerant and more secular.

Yeah Kerry has not come on to support marriage for same sex couples, but he didn’t oppose it. That’s not the only reason I chose to vote for Kerry, but one of the reasons.

Brent, I love this land. There are times I lay down on the grass outside in my back yard and think to myself how much I love the land I'm lying next to. This election didn't go my way. In 2 and 4 years, we'll give it another go, but I'm not going to write off this place that has given me life, and freedom, and so much. We are divided in many ways, this is true. But WE ARE STILL AMERICANS.

We still cross the Mississippi to go from the east to the west. We still have a big canyon, and gigantic forests of redwoods, and our kids still watch Sesame Street, and we still go to high school football games on Friday night. We go to New York and marvel at the really big buildings and the incredible Broadway shows. THIS IS WHO WE ARE. We're a big place and sometimes we contradict ourselves. But we believe we can overcome any obstacle, even the ones we set in front of ourselves.

I guess what I'm saying is if you're forcing me to choose, and being an American means I have to be a mean person who bullies the rest of the world to you, then I will be an American, and I swear it by the tears falling down my face right now, because I LOVE THIS LAND.

Sorry Semi,

I don't see where we as Americans have to account for how other countries feel when we are electing our leader. I'm fairly certain that people in other countries don't care about what I think about them when they are electing their leaders. Why are Americans held to different standard than the rest of the world? If other countries don't feel safe, because Bush is in the White House... I don't know what to say other than you can't please everybody. I know I wouldn't feel safer if say... Kerry was in the White House.

Nowhere in Prime's response do I see him say that you're opinion is not valid. If you want to think that we are a country full of mean people, then by all means do so. I can introduce you to my wife, and if she doesn't convince you that there are some nice people in this country, well then I can introduce you to her parents. The problem is not that your opinion isn't valid, the problem is that you've lumped everyone in this country into one big meanie that wants to bully the rest of the world. It's hard to support that argument, but you are more than entitled to believe it.

Editorial note to self: Jeff, today you're an emotional froot loop.

This is one of the things that drives me nuts... The democrats ran rampid in this country for pert near 40 years. Every once in a while the GOP would sneak a President in there, but he was always facing a Dem controlled congress. Let's just say that they weren't into extending olive branches to conservatives during those days, and since there were no mass conservative media outlets until the 90's, they really didn't have to.

Now all of the sudden the conservatives gain power and they must reach out to the other side? It works both ways, and quite frankly if the GOP is perceived as getting things done and reaching across party lines, that's not really in the other party's best interests, pollitcally speaking. Politics in this country is about power and money and the minority can't get that by reaching across party lines so that it looks like the majority is actually getting things done. In a perfect world, sure I'd like to see both sides work together for the betterment of the people they are supposed to serve, but the reality is that the world is just not perfect.

As for America's World View... once again, you can't please everybody.

Man, I don't know about you guys, but this has been one fun and interesting thread to participate in. You guys are great.

Actually, I would say that JFK began a modern Democrat legacy that held until Reagan, with Clinton being a postscript to that legacy. We're totally living in Reagan's legacy right now, governmentally speaking. That seems to be the way we do things in this country, historically. We tend to follow the legacy of a visionary President long after his service has ended. Positive or negative, JFK and Reagan, they both had vision and their legacy has guided the country long after their service ended.

At the risk of sounding melodramatic or paranoid, I must say that as a homosexual I am rather disturbed by the implications of this election.

Though I don't think that Pres Bush is personally homophobic, the fact remains that his largest source of support is obviously the christian right, which is *very* homophobic. He owes them big-time.

And with the House and Senate even more firmly in Republican control, he will be obliged to pay back the far-right of the evangelical movement by appointing extremely conservative Supreme Court judges. And since most people expect at least three of them to step down over the next four years, it seems Bush will have his chance. And with a Republican Congress to cheer him on.

Even more depressing is that eleven states have voted to ammend their constitutions to define marriage as a heterosexual institution. Now, if that were all, I wouldn't be so worried. But even worse, most of these ammendments also state that homosexual couples don't deserve such basic civil rights as health insurance, inheritance, adoption, hospital visitation rights etc.

And the icing on the cake is that these proposals passed by a staggering margin. Even in Oregon and my home state of Michigan.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is the country I thought i was....

There are a LOT of "hard feelings" on MY part. Saddam was empowered by the US and Hitler was funded by Bush family businesses, you picked some pretty poor examples. 120 Saudis and over 20 members of the bin Laden family were rushed out of the US in the aftermath of 911. Why? Sing the praises of that why don't you?

I never offered you a chorus of "We Are the World", I preached anti-violence. The only way to combat violent protest is to escalate the violence? Is war the only way to spread Democracy? That really doesn't speak well for the philosophy of it, does it?

I didn't ask to be insulted but I did offer to swallow my resentment and agree to work together toward the common good but you've just made me feel as if that's going to be impossible to do.

I'm sorry you feel persecuted by people that didn't want to spend 200 billion dollars to fight a war for Haliburton's profit margin and I'm sorry if you feel put down by people that don't want to listen to Buchannon and Graham preach racial and religious hatred. I quit my church in the 90's over political prosletyzation from the pulpit and I've never looked back.

Putting aside the issues, and whether or not I agree with Bush's position on them...

I could never support Bush because his life is the antithesis of the American way.

America stands for hard work, making an honest living, and being recognized for one's own merits and achievements. It's a country where anyone, no matter how humble their origins, can make something of themselves through faith, dedication, and perseverance.

Bush is the polar opposite of that: he got everything he has through family connections, the Old Boys' Club, and corruption. In that sense, his achievements are a slap in the face of everyone who's toiled day and night to make an honest living for themselves and their family.

Frankly, supporting Bush is about as unpatriotic and un-American as one can get.

Stu, you just described alot of politicians. On both sides of the aisle... including Kerry.

Well, I believe Kerry got into the game the old fashioned way. He married it.

However, I meant for my last post here to be my final one in this thread. I'm tired of the fight and I want to take a break.

So with that in mind my final parting shot:
Long Live the Legion!

WELL...I know you are cool and I know the missus is cool...but oh boy! is this going to become a BBQ thread?
Habenero mango pineapple BBQ sauce
I got the recipe

The point is that while other countries don't matter much to the US electorate the foreign policy of whoever is in the White House is critical to many other people in the rest of the world.

Look at how France was vilified by the US for not supporting the US invasion of Iraq! An invasion which is completely unjustified because the premise was bogus - where are the WMD?

It also sets a worrying precident. Because the US was effectively unopposed it now looks like your country can now invade/take military action against any of the other countries on the "axis of evil" list. And say Bush gets through those countries by the next election? Will the Republican party need to start on another soft target country?

The US is the world's only super power which is a frightening prospect - because the message that many governments around the world is getting is "support the US presidency, or you're next."

They don't. I can go on forever about it. They vote in order to legislate away personal freedoms, but when you want to impose majority rule on real structural issues, especially economic ones, they say you're impinging the personal rights of the individual or corporation. Republicans are trying to privatize the whole government (remember that an expanded public sector in America is still historically smaller than the public sector in European countries now that they're privatizing more). So basically they think they can legislate morality. Not the way America (or Democracy in general...some Americans think that they're in the only "free" country in the world, because it's repeated so often) was explained to me.

And the ignorance is widespread. A huge segment of Fox News viewers and Bush supporters say they wouldn't approve of Bush's invasion of Iraq if there were no WMD found. Obviously they are none, which Bush has admited, but they don't let inconveniences like truth and facts get in the way.

Really? You think he's a positive reflection on the military? Not a disgrace? The man is a CRIMINAL! And not just that, he's a traitor to this country. This isn't opinion, this is fact.

Yeah, it's worse. Stop believing the distorted statistics the Republicans are giving. The economy isn't improving. The only ones making out are the Leland McCauleys and R.J. Brandes of the world. Job creation can't keep up with new entrants to the workforce, and unemployment only looks low(er) because all the people who have given up looking for work in despair have been dropped from the ranks of those counted. So thanks for the shining future! Waid's run on the new book will be more relevant than ever, although the authority figures will seem pretty harmless in comparison. Bush/Cheney is more like the 5 Year Gap/TMK.

Well we'll never know for sure since all of those Diebold electronic voting machines that the CEO promised to deliver to Bush DON'T HAVE A PAPER TRAIL!