Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Arguably, the two most critically successful runs in the recent years for DC didn't follow these rules: Sandman and Starman. And I would say TMK had this in mind too.

Well, TMK did end up destroying the moon and the earth. They also made other significant and permanent changes in the cast (such as aging them five years . . .)

Never read Starman. I have most of the Sandman run; it succeeded on a different level than story arcs/novels. Most of the stories, at least early in the run, seemed self-contained or shorter, and they involved someone other than Dream changing. As such, it was more of an anthology series with a lot of mythology, history, and literature thrown in.

But Sandman did end . . . about 25 issues too late, in my opinion.

You know what? I think I would actually be okay with it if a creator with vision and talent like Neil Gaiman or James Robinson came aboard the LSH, launched a new beginning and stayed on and brought the series (and the characters) to a definitive conclusion like they did with Sandman and Starman. Similar great things were done with Preacher, Hitman, Sleeper and Y: The Last Man.

Of course, a big difference between these and the Legion is that all featured a main character created for the series (except for Hitman which spun out of Bloodlines and the demon) and all except Starman were under the Vertigo line.

There's a beauty to comics series having complete stories to them. I mean, has Swamp Thing ever been nearly as good as it was with Alan Moore? What if DC had insisted on continuing Watchmen after its huge acclaim? Would it be the classic it is today, and would the highly-anticipated movie have ever been made?

Legion would be more complicated because of its long, troublesome history and how all of the above featured central characters created by the writers for those series. But in a way it would be easier for Legion than it was for Starman because Legion's fundamentally more isolated being set in the far future.

TMK was a good opportunity for this to happen. If Giff had stayed and he and Tom and Mary were allowed to tell their story the way they wanted to, and then, they and DC said, "okay, that's a wrap on the Legion!" I think that would've been okay with me. I would've missed the Legion, but at least its story would've had a beginning, middle and an end that I could reread and cherish forever. Instead, we continue to struggle on through fits, starts and reboots!

For the sake of argument, though, let's say everything comes to pass as we think it will: Legion of Three Worlds closes the book on the Reboot and Threeboot and the current series concludes with # 50. Soon, a new series starts starring Geoff Johns' version of the pre-Crisis Legion.

What if this new series were planned in the finite, longterm model of the series mentioned above? Now, IMO, Legion should be longer than any of the above-mentioned, largely because of the sheer size of the cast--say, 100 issues. If Johns, Levitz or another quality respected writer, wrote this series, and you knew straight-up there'd be a definitive end to the Legion's story, would you be for or against it?

I think TMK's run was to tell an adult Legion story, find the SW6 batch and "restart" a-fresh. Thus, very self-contained in a way.
And I've been thinking if it wouldn't be better to transform Legion of Super-Heroes into a new format of self-contained artist-driven arcs, in which stories could be told freed from chronology. Much like Tales of The Dark Knight, but actually making it THE sole Legion book.
Legion needs to become bolder and riskier again, like it had always been up to TMK. And one of the main ways to do so is to change and "revolutionize" format.

Oh man are you lucky...you still have reading that entire series ahead of you. I highly reccomend that series. It was definitely one of the high points of 90's comics for me.

Not necessarily. In Germany, there's a SciFi series called "Perry Rhodan" which is running in one continuity since 1963 - one issue (pulp novel format) each week. Currently, they reached #2450 (!!!). Of course, there were good times and bad times, but essentially, the story always continued though writers died and were born.

In its glory years, the series told a major storyline which took about seven years from beginning to the end, which was about 350 single novels. The story was planned years in advance, and lots of early hints were given which only made sense years later. Of course, there were - just like in Babylon 5 much later - many single issues which had nothing to do with the big picture but were just simply SciFi stories.

So it needs the manpower, a lot of planning and a lot of patience, but it can work in an ongoing series. You just have to be ready to actually develop your characters - they can't stay 17 forever, that's for sure...

But we had this discussion - SciFi versus Superheroes, aging versus "jolly teenagers forever", so I won't go there.

For once, our opinions seem to differ: Though I am a big fan of the Sandman, I never got into Starman. Got the first TPB way back when it came out, it did not impress me...

CK, it sounds like the creators of "Perry Rhodan" had a plan stuck to it, regardless of how long it took.

The length of time it takes to tell a story doesn't really matter. What matters (to me) is, does the writer have an ending in mind and is he or she following a road map or "just making it up as he or she goes along"? Stronger stories rely on such a roadmap while allowing for flexibility.

I agree. There is no ideal length for a comic book story. Epic multiple issue stories can be fun. Ongoing serials can be great too, if they move and wrap things up as they go along. The Walking Dead is probably the best current example of that approach working well. Short stories can be effective. I probably wouldn't be the Legion fan that I am without the short easy to understand stories of Cary Bates.

It feels like there is a lack of diversity in storytelling approaches right now. Stories feel like they are more designed for the trade market than the monthly market. Then it gets even more frustrating when the trades are broken up into installments. You can drop $20 for a trade and only get a third of the story. Oops, still two more to buy. You don't mind dropping sixty bucks for complete story do you, fan boy?

Waid's pacing didn't work for me. There didn't seem to be a resolution to anything, and when there was it was anticlimactic. Bedard was an improvement and Shooter still feels like he is going somewhere. For the Legion, I would be most satisfied with a writer who really made an effort to tie up some loose ends. Perhaps it is just the nature of the series, but as a legion fan I feel like I've been left hanging on a number of different fronts for decades.

I just read the 1.000 Years TP today and it is incredible to compare how much story was crammed into Levitz stories and how thin they were in Legion #0 (one of the most despicable stories ever, even though Waid does a decent job on dialogue) and especially on The Legion #3. That story is a big nothing, full of nice splash pages but very low on substance. It's almost shocking when compared to Bedtime Story (with some of the best art Stuart Immonen ever did, clearly paying tribute to various LSH artists on the way).

And...we're back!

Or, rather, the sensation of Spring/Summer 2008 (since franchised out to Gym\'ll\'s !) which was a revolving & evolving topic that sizzled for 68 pages over a five-month span is attempting a comeback at a very crucial moment in Legion history!

You see, as EDE's "The Legion in the '00s" points out, you can make the argument that the '00s were the low point in terms of comparative decades' effect on the franchise. Let's face it: we'll have been without a continuing lead feature for the Legion for the longest period of time since they were a lowly backup feature in Action Comics between successful runs in Adventure and Superboy. Worse, we haven't had a successful run, critically and financially, arguably since the DnA heyday. Heck, depending on what standards you use, it could've been much longer ago than that!

Even worse, the Legion has been damaged so much in the last two decades by continuity "fixes" and reboots, one has to wonder whether a true revival is even POSSIBLE at this point!

Enter Paul Levitz, one of the very most legendary creators in all of Legion history. In early 2010 it will be up to Paul to raise the Legion up from the ashes.

My question to you, as a starting point, is this: What does Paul have to do in his upcoming run to give the Legion a shot at being truly successful again? Please note, I'm not asking you what would satisfy just YOU here--that's been covered elsewhere. I'm asking what he has to do to make it viable again, so that it has a chance to see another decade and stay healthy and well above the cancellation line. Obviously, really good stories would be a start, but let's dig deeper here and try to figure something out!

Any takers?

No doubt he's asking himself that very same question.

Based on what many people have written across various message boards and internet reviews, he should deliver some told in one (or two) issue stories. Some longer term plot simmering below. No big galactic threats. Some new villains. Find the lost Legionnaires (which I expect is on the agenda).

I don't know if it's possible, but it might help a lot of us if he could provide some definitive back story - what is the transition between the old Legion and this one, what didn't happen, when did Yera join, etc. I like text pages for this sort of thing, since a lot gets told in a little space, but these details could be worked into an on-going story as well.

I agree that I want to see most of what you've described here but does the average comic buyer?

What Levitz needs is good story-telling. Good plots and sub-plots and good, consistent characterisation. If he achieves that then the comic world MAY notice, if he doesn't then it will be down to the Legion faithfull to support the book or it goes under.

The guy probably needs a personal make-over to gain street cred in today's market as well.

Getting a top notch artist,who can meet deadlines and is passionate about the Legion,would go a long way in helping the title sell,that and covers by Alex Ross.

Some of Levitz strong points were good story-telling. Good plots and sub-plots and good, consistent characterisation.

What might hurt him in todays Comics,is his dialogue?

And creating New Villians for the Legion to face or tweaking Old Villians,like Johns did with Absorbancy Boy/Earth Man and the rest of the characters from Justice League Earth.

Some things he could do that I'd hope would help the Legion be more successful, though none by themselves would do it:

- more science-fiction comic than superhero comic

- continued interaction with the Superman mythos, possibly the Flash mythos but then cut it off there.

- Balance between shorter 1-issue stories and 2-issue stories, with the longer 3, 4 and 5 issue stories. Obviously, do them in an order where you can bundle them together 6-7 issues at a time for a trade.

- Don't bog the series down in continuity without making it feel like its 'new and developing'. In other words, any reader coming on feels like they're watching continuity develop before their eyes. In the meantime, give the old readers something to bite themselves--I suggest devoting an annual or secret files to it, make the price something outrageous like $6.99 and be done with it. I think from now DC and Marvel should always do this and make readers have to pay for continuity. Its all going to be spoiled online anyway within minutes so I suspect half the readership doesn't even buy stories like that anymore and just wants to 'know the continuity' rather than read a good story.

- new "stuff": villains, situations, alien worlds, supporting characters, love intersts, romantic relationships, odd relationships including platonic ones, weird facets about people or places, etc.

- Encyclopedia Galactica tidbits to return the Legion to having a certain voice it once had.

- Use the Legion's vast membership to his advantage to showcase a large team. Obviously this is something he knows how to do. But also, there will need to be some Legionnaires that stand out as having more screen time than the rest, to become more popular to help propel the popularity of the book. This is a tried and true team book method (see: Wolverine, Cable, Robin, etc.). Give those latter Legionnaires specific ongoing subplots and stories; likely they could be Ultra Boy, Saturn Girl, Wildfire, etc. Note that many fans will complain about this. If it helps sales, and even causes people to take notice, this is a type of complaint DC can live with. (Far better to have people say "Ultra Boy again?" than "I can't understand the freaking Legion anymore").

Some thoughts.

Obviously the art. Good covers. Sex appeal but don't make it gratuitous. Quirky background aliens.

I think Legion should aim for more adult market, rather than trying to be the new X-Men or Teen Titans. It should cater to a more off-beat pattern, catching the Ex-Machina/Starman/Warren Ellis sci-fi/fantasy reader and MUCH less to DCU.
I am not here saying it should be as bold as it was during TMK (I'd love to, but I am a loner here), but it sounds even more ludicrous to try doing what they've tried for the last 10 years without a bit of success. Special issues with top-artists using "out of continuity" tales (in that James Robinson "tales of days past" way) should be embraced. And last but not least, give the writer FREEDOM to tell his tale. Not doing what DC did to Shooter. Or Waid. You see, Johns wasn't really interested in the Legion - and L3W was proof enough of how Legion was merely a background for GL, Flash, S-Prime...
That's it. Thank you all for reading.

Between the terrible economy and the backwards approach to marketing/pricing that both of the Big Two seem hung up on, I don't know whether this relaunch will succeed or fail. I also don't know how much of its success or failure would have to do with the actual story contents, truthfully.

But I wish the new team luck/success, anyway. With the caveat that this stuff in general is priced way the hell out of my reach these days. If I can't read it, I hope they don't take it personally.

$0.99 first issue of Levitz's run would be pretty groovy too!

From DiDio's 10 Answers at newsarama:

Paul is also going to be writing an Adventure Comics Annual which will be setting up much of his storyline in Adventure Comics. So really, his run kicks off with the Adventure Comics Annual first, then it goes into Adventure Comics itself. And as we realized by chatting, I believe this is the first Adventure Comics Annual ever, which I believe is also very exciting that Paul gets to do that.

"his storyline"?

I hope that he actually meant "his first storyline"...

So long as it's printed bigger than a Chick tract.

Wolverine didn't start as a main character, he was a breakaway character, along with Storm, Nightcrawler and Kitty to a lesser extent, I think, and then the remade Jean as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.
Unfortunately, that's where most all of Cockrum's characters ended up.


They were also mixed in age with older adult mentors, like Xaviar.

The Legion is/should be similar in structure, especially since that's how they started.

1) I think that Legion has been held back because so many of them are too limited in ability and so, very difficult to write for.
That's why Imra and Brainy and Lar and Cham end up in so many stories, actually doing something besides being hostages or being eye candy and carry everything.

Once in awhile, a story for a MatterEaterLad can be thought up, but usually they're just baggage. Or writers push to make everyone relevant and create unbelievable stories and/or silly or weak villians.

But you can't just 'beef up' their powers, either.

2) 3) 4) But to get a larger audience, they need to play to a broad age demigraphic, be part of a larger picture, as part of the DCU and have some ground breaking ideas.

Continuity is fine but their SO bound by their past. That needs to stop.
We can be aware of it but it's gone, done, over.

5) Don't fix things and don't solve old plot threads or bring back old characters UNLESS it works in the here and now.

New people just won't want to be hung up in it.
You have to be able to jump in anywhere and enjoy the story without having to know all of the relationships and history.

6) I'd get one of the super artists rather than the traditional newbies who become supers unless they're already on the way to it.

Others have addressed marketing, packaging, story quality, creative freedom, etc..

And I agree that GREAT covers is a must, too.

Breakaways have to be created though or the Legion is doomed in today's market, I think, which seems to hang on the familiar, powerful and charismatic.

I think you are right when comparing with X-Men characters but why can't Legion characters be beefed up? Most of the current Legion characters were created in the sixties/early seventies when comic characters were much more light-weight than today's creations. That's not to say that the existing Legionnaires haven't got potential to be galaxy spanning heavy-weights.

Timber Wolf has become a Wolverine-lite and Mysa's Black Witch persona has possibilities. Both could be expanded. In the past Levitz re-imaged Jeckie into a much more powerful Sensor Girl, others could be beefed-up without becoming copies of other characters.

Night Girl should be a much creepier creature of the night in a sort of vampire-ish way or as ashadow demon. This could be explained from the 'destroying shadow demons makes her stronger' comment in Lo3W

Shadow Lass is somewhat limited compared to the reboot Umbra but a trip to the caves on Talok could put that right.

Starman's mass powers can create black holes and do all sorts of stuff like that that has never been explored.

Has Ultra Boy only used his energy to copy Kryptonian powers because of his own imagination. What if he was taught to do just about anything?

And guys like Mon-El, Sun Boy, Lightning Lad, Wildfire and especially Element Lad are already amazingly powerful but have never been used to their full potential. Look what Dirk did when held by the Justice League Earth.

Even Matter-Eater Lad. What if he still retains the energy of the Miracle Machine? Even if he doesn't, the strength and level of invulnerability it takes to chew and swallow rocks shows a level of power totally untapped. And what about the matter he digests what does it do to his body. If a human eats too much carrotine they turn orange. If Tenz eats too much iron, does he turn into Ferro Lad? What if he ate Wildfire? Superboy Prime's name for Drake - Wildfart - springs to mind.

Over the years, the Legions adversaries have increased in power, pretty much in line with the rest of the medium and that is why Superman and Green Lantern are more front and centre than they've ever been. Guys like Aquaman and Green Arrow can't really hack it against Darkseid. The Legion needs more big hitters to counter-balance the level of villain in today's comics.

I think this approach is absolutely essential for the success of Levitz's return to the Legion. In the same way that Robinson peppered in his "Times Past" stories between arcs, Levitz should definitely sprinkle flashback tales fairly frequently, at least once a year. This would serve two purposes: 1) It would enrich new readers with the breadth of Legion history, and 2) It could be used to hammer out continuity issues for us lifers who want to have certain continuity issues tied up and clarified.

For this to work it should be relevant to preceding or, especially, upcoming storylines in the book. Another terrific example (other than Robinson's Starman) was Geoff Johns' "Secret Origin" arc on Green Lantern which achieved both of those purposes perfectly. Maybe Levitz should do a Secret Origins arc as well to seed the continuity fixes and (re)introduce people to some characters and situations he will be bringing in. Hell, it wouldn't be a bad way at all to start his run! It would provide perfect accessibility to readers old and new.

Well, I got a little ahead of myself there, but the idea actually excited me quite a bit. In any case Levitz has done these kinds of flashback stories before, so it's certainly more than a passing possibility. The difference now is that key word "relevance". At least in the early stages Paul shouldn't do something like that Ferro Lad/Karate Kid/Projectra flashback story (from V3 #31), lovely as it was, unless it enhances directly the overall tapestry he's trying to set up. Do it in this manner, so that win you have a one-off it doesn't feel like a fill-in to the reader.

That's exactly what a book with the granduer and history to it the LSH has to do to ensure it'll have a long and healthy run. We need more fellow Legion maniacs!

Set's comments in the other Levitz thread reminds me:

I think we've had more than enough legacy heroes and villains, thankyouverymuch. Keep the ones you have, but please no more.

Something else else about the overemphasis on legacy heroes/villains really sticks in my craw. Possibly because it ties into the always-popular class issues, possibly because it goes against the notion of self-determination. ("What we were thousands of years ago, we will still be thousands of years from now." Pre-destiny. How... Puritan. How really out of place against a backdrop that should have at least a few Utopian elements in it.)

Also, like a lot of other promising ideas, it loses its meaning when overused. And, yeah, it makes homogenization and constant dragging into all those present-time mega-events-du-jour a given. I've had my fill of that, truthfully.