Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

Yet, I believe that some cross-over into the DCU is essential to ensuring the Legion's continued health. A title so isolated has to have some way of inviting new readers into its doors.

But the story must make sense. It must not feel forced. Find a logical way for the Legion to participate in the story and make it work for the Legion in such a way that it showcases the book's appeal to someone who's sampling the book because of the crossover.

DC's already setting one of these up nicely as it is apparent that the Legion will be involved somehow in the larger Superman/New Krypton story that's going on. Obviously, several Legionnaires have already been revealed to be on a mission in the past, and Mon-El has his own front-and-center role. This will be a natural bridge for readers to the Legion's Adventure Comics run and will presumably have some direct tie-in issues in that comic. And it won't feel forced at all because it's been set up for over a year now.

But after that, just avoid crappy tie-ins like the Millennium issues, and if at all possible, approach cross-overs in the mannner of Marvel's Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy and Incredible Hercules by telling a complete and self-contained story within the larger cross-over tapestry. The stories the former two told during Annhilation: Conquest and War of Kings, and the latter told during Secret Invasion, were superior and satisfying in that way. Check 'em out sometime if you don't believe me!

I do agree with this for the most part. One thing about the classic Legion was its members were definitely not legacy heroes. You could sort of argue that about Mon-El, but that wouldn't really hold up well. Ultra Boy and early Star Boy had the Kryptonian power sets but weren't legacies.

It's important that the 31st century doesn't appear to be all about the 20th and 21st centuries. The major aspect in which it is so is the inspiration of Superman and his heroic age to the Legion's approach. But if we have a Bat-Legionnaire, a Flash-Legionnaire, etc., it's just taken too far. (I'd give Jenni a free pass, however! )

I would go further here and stress the importance of staying away from showing the future of 21st century characters and concepts. Laurel Kent as a descendant of Superman was a mistake (though I don't condone her being made into a Manhunter). I'd also stay away from the Green Lantern Corps, even though that's already been addressed in L3W. Thing is, you just don't know where characters and concepts will go from one creative team to another. So if you show something and later the other book contradicts it, we get into retcon territory, and we know the pitfalls that come with those.

Levitz can be cute and show glimpses of things that are left to the reader's imagination, but nothing definitive. The Legion has plenty of stories to tell without having to rely on legacy-related plots. (Note: I don't feel this contradicts my cross-over post above--I can explain if necessary.)

Lardi wrote [snip]:

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...The stories the former two told during Annhilation: Conquest and War of Kings, and the latter told during Secret Invasion, were superior and satisfying in that way. Check 'em out sometime if you don't believe me!

Dude, have those stories been collected? I might have a shot at finding them in the library if the answer's "yes."

I think I take an opposite approach to you vis-a-vis big crossover events: I'm afraid they'll put off new fans rather than lure them. Of course, when I'm thinking of "new," I'm thinking of people who don't pay very much attention to comics in general. I can sort of see the logic of wanting to draw in the people who are already halfway there, so to speak. But those people are already buying a ton of books if they're motivated to follow a crossover. At some point, I think they'll throw up their hands and just say "no more."

I post on a couple of more general comics comms, over at LJ, and I can tell you that Legion fans are so thin on the ground that one of the mods referred to me last week as "that other Legion fan." (She was sort of joking, though. I've counted at least five or six.) But it's kind of sobering, even as a random, non-scientific sample, amongst people that are already very well-disposed towards the superhero genre.

I'd rather see new people who aren't in "the brotherhood/sisterhood" get drawn in by what makes the book different from other superhero books. Since my observation is that simply homogenizing it more to appeal to people already reading superhero books is dicey, at best. All that homogenization, the "spillage" of stuff like Crisis into Legion continuity in a way that permanently altered it and darkened the overall environment considerably... was kind of what drove me away from the genre for two decades.

I think more of that all over again would be hamstringing talented people unfairly. I also have my doubts that it would work from a commercial standpoint, especially with the way markets are now.

Lardi wrote: [snip]

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...I would go further here and stress the importance of staying away from showing the future of 21st century characters and concepts. Laurel Kent as a descendant of Superman was a mistake (though I don't condone her being made into a Manhunter). I'd also stay away from the Green Lantern Corps, even though that's already been addressed in L3W. Thing is, you just don't know where characters and concepts will go from one creative team to another. So if you show something and later the other book contradicts it, we get into retcon territory, and we know the pitfalls that come with those...

Thanks for getting into the specifics of "hamstringing." Heck, if people can't resist telling that kind of story, they have Elseworlds and the like, don't they?

I like the Superman connection, think the Flash connection makes good sense and don't mind the GL connection now that it exists but that should be enough. After that, no more connections to the present day DCU unless it gets real offbeat! The Legion stands out on its own as strongly as all the other "great" properties at DC, and doesn't need to be similar to them. It'd be like putting a mutant in the Fantastic Four just 'cuz. It doesn't need to be done. So I hope Levtiz closes those floodgates ASAP.

On the other hand, a Legionnaire that isn't getting much screen time from a crowded Legion book that could really shine elsewhere is more than welcome to have his own series or be part of another series in the rest of the DCU. No room for Tellus in the Legion book? I'll gladly check him out in Superman or Kid Flash or wherever else.

Here's something that I don't think has been done. What about a line-wide DC crossover where a bunch of present-day DC characters all have to travel to the 31st century for some reason? No reason the Legion always has to be the road team.

Very interesting idea, Matt. If it were line-wide, though, the story behind it would need to be exceptionally well-crafted to make the readers buy a scenario like that.

Anyone got any ideas what the basic story would be behind such a crossover?

Hmmm...I could see Jenni easily being a supporting cast member in the upcoming Flash or Kid Flash books! (maybe even a JSAer and a new pal for Stargirl, though she might be too similar to Cyclone, especially personality-wise.)

The Legionnaires in the Johnsboot seem a little too old for the Teen Titans...though maybe Pol? (Can't remember--has he been shown alive in the Johnsboot since the Magic Wars probably didn't happen?!?!) If so, that would be a way of getting himself from beneath Rokk's shadow.

Any other natural fits?

It was called Legion of Three Worlds

Nice one.

I think that DC adopting a policy of NOT starting the whole franchise over from scratch every time a new writer comes on board is a good start. Part of the reason I'm not going to be buying the new Legion stuff is that I just feel that my loyalty has been abused. Even if Levitz' new stuff turns out to be great, there is now an established pattern that shows that DC editorial has absolutely no idea what the franchise is about, except that it's got a small but extraordinarily devoted group of fans who will scream bloody murder if they do away with it entirely. I still, five years later, can not completely understand how any rational human being thought the Waid/Kitson reboot was a good idea, let alone the flimsy "everyone's a legionnaire and adults suck" premise. The fact that Shooter came in cold, not having written comics in years, and IMMEDIATELY turned that mess into something recognizable as the Legion without any sort of reboot or retcon has apparently been lost on some people. The way I see it, it ends one of two ways: the book never takes off, period, or it does and some day Levitz leaves and whoever replaces him has some new damnfool concept that requires tossing everything out and starting over. I'm just too bitter about the fact that I stuck with the Legion through the last 2 years of bs and the message DC is sending me is that I was wasting my time all along. The rug will be pulled out from under us again, kids. It's just a question of when...

I meant to say 20 years, not 2. Oops...

I would say 23-24 years.


The BS started with Crisis on Infinite Earths/Man of Steel in 1985/86 - and I say this as someone who loved CoIE as an event but what happenened to the Legion knocked the stuffing out of the book. Even Levitz seem to lose the will to go on after the Pocket Universe fiasco.

EDE quickly catches on to the coolness that is "fistory"!

Welcome--or welcome back--to Lardy's Roundtable! Fifteen years ago, this was an incredibly successful thread I created that organically became a revolving thread about wherever the discussion seemed to be heading. Honestly, it's probably one of my favorite topics I ever started and certainly one of the more successful ones for a time. It even had a pretty decent spin-off in Gym'll's that covered the broader spectrum of comics beyond the Legion.

If you don't know me very well, I'm the titular "Lardy", as I was Lard Lad for most of my posting history?

There's a funny reason I'm reviving this topic now. You see, this wasn't originally called "Lardy's Roundtable"; it was a plea for fans more knowledgeable of a particular Legion period to let me know whether it would be worth it for me to collect and read those issues, Here was the first post:


So, yes, the thread was originally entitled: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

The "funny" reason to revive this topic is that, just this past week or so--FIFTEEN years later--I finally read the latter part (post-Earthwar) of the Superboy & the LSH Vol. 2 hardcover that I bought when it was released. (I also have bought but not yet read the two LSH Before the Darkness volumes that complete the period in question.) This HC begins with Earthwar and goes thru 259 and also includes DCCP 13 & 14,


So what did I think?

Honestly? So far, so good, overall. Is it really superior Legion storytelling? Certainly not. In a way it recalls some of the simplistic storytelling of the Adventure era but with more subplots and continuity, especially with the continual references to Earthwar, its continued effects and some unexpected ramifications for the Legion.


The most "classic" of these issues post-Earthwar was the Omega 2-parter. It is rightly praised for the Legionnaires, especially Wildfire, getting some big moments and the overall team facing a huge threat soon after Earthwar. Plus, there are obvious ramifications for Brainy and Tenzil. Plus the Starlin artwork is better than most of what shows up between Sherman and Giffen. However, Omega really seems vaguely overpowered in a way that is barely explained if at all. Maybe some of the explanations are left out of the infamous story cuts that made Starlin disown the story and be credited as Steve Apollo? Who knows, really?



The only stories within that I had previousy read were the 2 parts of the DCCP story. I read these as a kid and remembered them fondly. Sadly, though, they don't hold up well, mainly because:

1) The plot is weak and nonsensical. Superman being convinced that Pete's son has to stay on the alien world seems to happen off-panel. He goes from being dead-set against leaving his friend's son there to being all for it. All this presumably happens during an interlude. Honestly, the necessity is never well explained and seems even sillier after Supes eliminates the danger of the long war in the resolution of the story,

2) Pete Ross seems really badly disrespected here. Basically, he's an all-out villain in this story, While I suppose you could explain it as him being in severe father mode under trying circumstances, we have here our first modern payoff of the longrunning subplot of Pete knowing Superboy/man's identity and Clark finally finding out. It simply falls flat after all of these years waiting for Clark to find out. And Pete's portrayal and betrayal is just pure character assassination.

Oddly enough, the writer was Paul Levitz, and he drops the ball here. Dick Dillin is up to the task, at least, so it looks really good. I know there was a third and possibly concluding chapter to this Jon Ross mini-saga a year later in DCCP 25, but I don't know how or how satisfactorily it was resolved. I'd be curious if any of you could fill me in!


Anyhow, that's all the commentary I have time for tonight, but I'll be back for more soon! I hope, of course, to see your thoughts on this period!

The funny thing is that I actually started the whole "Archives Re-Read" Project in part to finally get the motivation to read this era myself, but then dropped out of the project before we got to this era!

So I still haven't read it!

Well, I haven't read all of it, because my library system never got in the last volume of this Era (that whole Reflecto/Superboy/Ultra Boy mess,) but, off the top of my head, I would say that, except for some nice Dick Giordano covers around the time of the Dark Man issues, it's very forgettable. Secrets of the LSH was a wasted opportunity and Omega, which I used to like, did not hold up well the last time I reread it. Oh, and the introduction of the Super-Assasins gets off to a great start and then gets awful. Come to think of it, that critique also applies to the Dark Man story.

So, overall, a lot of missed opportunities. The very definition of Bronze Age mediocrity, and often worse than that.

Isn’t this the era that introduced Mants Morlo and his Chemoid, The Space Circus… of Death!, Kantuu the Djinn, Doctor Mayavale, Captain Frake and the Dirigible Dictator?

All regrettable and forgettable villains.

OK, so no one can forget Doctor Mayavale, but regrettable nonetheless.

Lardy, I must confess:

Somehow, I thought that it was EDE who revived this thread and that your post was an old one. That's why I only replied to EDE.

I'm so sorry for my oversight. I blame it on logging in before I had my coffee.

When I have some spare time later on, I'll reply to your post.

Luv ya, big man!

What turns me off is not so much the simplicity as the lack of respect for readers. The League of Super-Assasins story is the best/worst example: I find the first issue excellent with its promising new villains and its dark-but-not-ugly atmosphere. But then, in the second issue, the villains turn into ineffectual clowns, the Subs are shoehorned in awkwardly, Brainiac Five is a red herring, and Superboy turns out to have been one step of everybody all along. The Adventure Era had its juvenile and awkward aspects, but I never felt like Weisinger nor the writers were ever writing down to their predominantly young audience. Jack H. Harris and Gerry Conway seem to be like, yeah, we know it's stupid and shoddy, but kids don't deserve any better.


The last time I reread Omega, I was not in a receptive frame of mind. I found it dark in an ugly way, and the ending with Tenzil remained as problematic as ever in its discordant goofiness. I also chalk it up to having developed a distaste for all things Starlin as I get older. The nicest thing I can say about the Omega issues is that the Staton/Giordano cover to 250 is lovely.

While I'm notorious for putting off reading trades and collections (see the BIg-Ass Pile thread in Gym'll's), I originally read the early part of this one starting with Earthwar prety quickly because I'd heard about this story all my life and had reading it in full on my bucket list. However, once I finished that one and read the next few issues, I was finding it hard to continue! So...I didn't! Finally, I said, "screw it", and read the rest over the last week. And, really, despite all the criticisms I've made (and many still to come), I did overall enjoy it. However, I'm NOT in a huge hurry to start BtD Vol. 1, so.....

Yep, but all of those are still to come in the BtD books, which I'm in such a hurry to read......

Well, it wouldn't be the first time me and EDE were mistaken for each other!

ya, too, chica!

I actually loved the inclusion of the Subs, even if it felt they were shoehorned in, We see them increasingly rarely since the Adventure run.

I have two main problems with that initial LSA story: 1) It's made pretty clear that the LSA killed some people by destroying that spaceship as they approach Earth. While Blok isn't the perpetrator, he's definitely guilty by association. I don't want any later explanation spoiled (if it happens), but I would assume this would keep him out of the Legion. This is nothing like the Kenz Nuhor situation with Star Boy; it's crime and murder. 2) The reveal at the end that the LSA's motivation was completely erroneous because they misread the Legionnaires having evacuated their doomed planet as them actually being responsible for the planet's doom. They misunderstood because they were too young at the time! I'm totally down for there having been a misunderstanding, but how about something a little more clever and a lot less lazy?!?!?



You know, I have very little problem with the resolution to the story and what Tenzil does, Yes, it's kind of left field but also kind of genius.

My problem is--can we not have been shown at least a panel of Tenzil eating the damn thing?!?! I, for one, would have liked to have SEEN the event instead of just being TOLD of it!!! I mean, it was Tenzil's biggest moment this side of 5YL and we couldn't be shown the damn act!!!

(Y'know, I don't think they showed the damned Miracle Machine itself at any time in the whole flippin' story!?!?! :rolleyes: )

Double LOL




Awwwww...gracias.