Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

oh and another good point that kent brought up, some of this argument about sexuality is pretty moot, you know some people are BISEXUAL, right?!! why does someone have to be either gay or straight?! just because garth dates imra on friday doesn't mean he can't break up with her and date cos on saturday.

and some people maintain that their sexuality is "fluid", ie, in a state of flux depending on different factors (their age, their current taste, etc) (ex: someone might like guys during one period of their life, or trans people later on, or girls after that, and their tastes change).

personally, i think we're all a little bisexual, when i like someone, i'm not going "i love their genitalia!" i think "we share common interests, we get along well, etc".

Not necessarily. They may have chosen not to do this for a number of reasons:

1) This story, as I said, is Sean's, not Jan's. To contain a big revelation (and it would be BIG) about Jan's sexuality would detract from Sean and his journey.

2) A lot of writers (particularly literary writers, which I argue TMK were) don't like to hit readers over the head with Big Revelations. They prefer that readers draw their own conclusions from the evidence presented (which, of course, is what we're doing). Subtlety goes a lot further in fiction than signs screaming LOOK AT THIS!

3) They had many other things on their plate during that run: The Dominators, SW6, earth about to blow up, etc. The focus couldn't be entirely on Jan and his sexuality.

In fact, I think this story works best as a snapshot of what's going on in certain characters' lives at that moment. We can't see everything, but we see enough.

Different writers, different processes and goals.

Also, a writer's intent can change. Shooter may have had a change of heart with Harbinger, but nothing suggests to me that TMK changed their perspective on Jan.

Ambiguity is a good thing. It gives us room to discuss, to research the story, and to support our points.

In other words, it makes readers actively involved in the story.

From a college writing instructor's viewpoint, at least, this is a wonderful thing.

Yes, but it would have been clunky.

As I suggested earlier (and some have disagreed with me), the great irony of the story is that Jan and Sean were both gay and neither realized it.

Levitz surrendered all claims to the character, as all DC and Marvel writers do, once he left the series.

This takes nothing away from his work in building Shvaughn and Jan's relationship, but it should not hinder later writers from taking that relationship in a different direction.

For me, hell no. I was a huge fan of Buffy, and the thing that most made me want to punch Joss Whedon in the face is when he would show one thing on screen, and then show up at a convention over the summer and say that *the exact opposite happened.*

In college, my creative writing prof was a dick, but he had one brilliant rule. You brought your poem/prose/whatever to class, you read it to the class, *and then you couldn't say a word, while the class discussed it.* Being forced to sit there and listen to readers speculate as to what you meant or what you were talking about, gritting your teeth because you are burning up inside with the desire to explain how off-base they are, is an eye-opening experience, and I wish writers like Joss, or the Bierbaums, had that sort of training, so that they would know better than to come back later in an interview and say, 'Oh, no, you were supposed to see *this.*'

I have zero tolerance for writers (or other artists) thinking that they need to 'explain' or 'translate' their art for me. They don't need to treat me like I'm an idiot for 'not getting it.' Either I got it, or you didn't present it right.

Based on their relationship, Jan seemed happier with Shvaugn than Sean, but I suspect that had nothing to do with the shape of hir body and everything to do with the fact that Sean was happier and more confident as Shvaugn than he was in his own skin. The 'Sean' identity was were he'd left all of his insecurities behind, insecurities which Jan didn't seem to have a whole lot of patience for, since it implied a lack of trust in Jan that Sean was so afraid of 'coming out' to him.

Nope. I hate after-the-fact reveals like this.

Some writers are blocked, and want to present a gay, black, whatever character, but are pressured into changing race or sexuality or just 'keeping it in the closet.' I feel bad for the writer (such as teen Shooter, who wanted a black Ferro Lad, but was blocked by old white men in charge), but that still doesn't 'count.' Ferro Lad may have been intended to be black, but he wasn't.

Other writers are chicken, and decide in their head that a character is gay or whatever, but then never actually write anything into the story addressing this. I'm not sure whether Byrne, presenting Northstar as 'not interested in girls' and then completely ignoring his sexuality for his 25 issue run, counts in this place or the former, if he was blocked from writing any gay Northstar stories, or if he just farted around and avoided controversy.

And the last, the ones that really piss me off, are the ones who 'come out' years later at some interview or convention or panel appearance and say, 'Oh, so-and-so was *always* like this.' because it's trendy to have characters of X persuasion and they want to retroactively be seen as visionary and progressive. I have no idea if the Bierbaums fit here (I know Joss does, as his statements after-the-fact contradict his script direction at-the-time on a few accounts, with him furiously backpedaling later and trying to claim that hugely unpopular choices he made where someone elses work, or misinterpreted by the fans or the exact opposite of what was written, by him, in the script), or are victims of exec pressure, or just missed the boat and never got around to writing Jan as gay, instead of just portraying him as 'queer by association,' because he got bait-and-switched into sleeping with a gay guy.

I agree with this 100%.

I've always seen the 30th century as being better than today, and the notion that Jan and Shvaugn were in the closet and 'pretending' makes me sad. I would *hope* that 1000 years from now, a man like Jan wouldn't feel compelled to shack up with a woman he isn't attracted to physically because it's expected, or his family wouldn't understand (obviously not a problem for Jan, anyway) or because society will condemn him if he doesn't 'play house' and keep his icky gay urges properly repressed.

Having the entire Jan / Shvaugn relationship recast as 'pretend' *on both sides,* (with Sean pretending to be a woman and Jan being a closeted gay man using the poor confused transsexual as a beard) cheapens it, IMO. Having Jan not give a muskshrew's patootie about the gender of his partner, being concerned more with his/her sense of self-esteem and happiness, is *FAR* more of the hopeful future that I would want to imagine, would want to live in, or at least visit once every 30 days for $4.95.


Good point. It's a double-standard that is, all-too-often, invisible.

It's a sad commentary on our society that gay readers (or, at least, gay-friendly readers) have to look for 'HoYay' in such esoteric situations, jumping through hoops to see 'the gay' in suggestions and shadows and circumstances, because of the dearth of openly homosexual characters and relationships for them to identify with / connect to.

About the 'in spite of' comment... I always read it as Jerry did, that it was Jan telling Sean that he was attracted to men.

It is an ambiguous line-- and all the stronger and more interesting for it. I find different readers' interpretation of that line fascinating.

One idea I haven't seen mentioned is one of biochemistry. More specifically, I'm thinking of the role of sexual pheromones. It's possible that Jan wouldn't be highly physically attracted to anyone not from Trom (which evoloved independently, I believe).

That could be the source of the 'in spite'.

About writers' intent... I know the Bierbaums were active in Legion fandom before 'getting the gig'. Were they during their tenure, as well?

Was anyone reading this active in groups they belonged to then? Did they discuss their intent for Jan, either before becoming official writers, during their stint, or after?

Too bad there wasn't a LEGION WORLD around then. I wonder what the general reaction to this was in the fan groups? Or on newsgroups, I guess- as this would've been in the early years of the internet.

Though this definitely *is* a Shvaughn, Sean story, it's also *most* certainly an Element Lad one. Or Element Lads, plural. Young Jan received pretty much his entire batch of characterization in this issue I think we learned *tons* about him and about 'adult' Jan. Each changed through the course of the story, as did Sean.

Yeah, profem was dull... I am a big Giffen supporter, but the profem idea and the "Garth has been Proty all along" idea I could never accept... it probably would have hurt the story less if Jan arrah just would have found another, male love interest.

How did the older Jan change? I guess his final comment, "I do believe everything's going to be okay," could be taken as a change in perspective, but it's vague enough to mean anything. He started out believing that Shvaughn needed to stand on her own two feet, and he ended up maintaining that position (which Sean came to agree with).

When I say that this is Sean's story, I'm talking about a matter of degree. The focus is on Sean and his journey in coming to accept himself. Everything else is subordinate, including the Young Jan subplot, which is beautifully woven into the main plot at the end.

And whether or not Jan (either one) or Sean is developed further after this story is irrelevant. A good story stands on its own merits and this one certainly does.

So, when I say that it's Sean's story, I'm coming at it from a different perspective. What matters is not so much what we learn about the characters but what they learn about themselves.

Dull?! Controversial, shocking, horrible, brilliant . . . I can see all of these adjectives applying, but dull??

Yeah, my friend Chemical King has failed this time. Profem is one of the best sci-fi element in the whole LSH run. I could see a Philip K. Dick novel just on that topic.

Was it earlier on this thread? (a bit long to check right now) that somebody pointed this out in a different context? Namely, that if Shooter (or any other writer) wanted to out any threeboot character, he'd be falling into a trap. Assuming the closet will still exist 1000 years from now. Gay people would be openly so.

And that reminds me: Comparing Shooter's and the Bierbaums' character descriptions, I found that yes, Shooter was sexist, rude and also insulting to the intelligence of characters of either gender, but his descriptions included more than was seen in the comics. The Bierbaums' descriptions were straightforward and added little.

Specifically, Vi. I like Shooter's idea that she wasn't really shy, but morbid (the "she's interpreted as shy because she's a girl" part of it didn't work). The Bierbaums basically attribute her shyness to being closeted and sexually insecure. They took the easy way out - assuming a character's sexuality was responsible for his/her main character traits, even in a world where it shouldn't have made much difference.

Again, I feel the need to reiterate something I wrote a page or two ago. There's no reason to assume that the 30th or 31st century is a homogeneous society where the same values are shared everywhere. Assuming that everyone in the future will be accepting of homosexuality is like assuming that everyone today accepts equality between men and women. As much as we would love to believe it, major parts of the world still exist where it isn't so.

(And TMK acknowledged the lack of universal acceptance of homosexuality by having Sean's parents come from Duar, a world with decidedly stereotypical ideas about men and women.)

So, I don't think its fair to accuse TMK or even Shooter (whose run I haven't read) of taking the easy way out by addressing a topic that may still be valid in the future--and certainly is valid to their present readers.

I don't think it's going to take a thousand years to come up with something like Profem...I doubt it will take more than a couple of decades from our point in time.

And to tie that into something else...I expect folks a thousand years in our future to have substantially longer lifespans than now...that is a trend with humans, to increase their lifespans, and we are supposed to be on the cusp right now of making huge steps forward in longevity.


It's not that I don't like concepts like real time aging or profem...I just don't think those are particularly out there or cutting edge sci-fi concepts. Those aren't a thousand years in the future to me....those are 10-50 years in the future to me. Real time aging or plain old aging isn't any kind of sci-fi to me...it's just the opposite. It's realism...in a book that should be as far removed from what we consider realism as any book on the market. Due to the fact that it takes place a thousand years in our future.

Because some people are gay or straight...

Just like some people are bisexual, and some people are asexual..

It does if he's not gay or bisexual..he would have zero desire to do that and it wouldn't be a realistic portrayal of him.


And I'd say that's totally natural..what I would not say is that it is gay.


To some people that is important...

I don't doubt that someone that is bi-sexual thinks everyone is a little bi-sexual or should be.

I imagine most gays think everyone is a little gay or should be...

And most heteros think everyone is a little hetero or should be...

And most people that are asexual think everyone is a little asexual or should be.


Having an ego-centric view of the world is hardly unique...but thinking everyone is a little that way, or should be, is the very birthmother of discrimination...


The only thing we all are, is different.


And what cannot be argued is that to someone of a bi-sexual incliniation, gender reaally doesn't matter, and to those that aren't inclined that way it does matter.

And what also cannot be argued is that as a bi-sexual, you see relationships that you are comfortable with in comics, portrayed half the time...


Whereas someone who is gay, does not get that, they do not get to see relationships they are comfortable with portayed in comics very often...

And they didn't get to see one portayed in the story in question, even though they are being told that is what was being portrayed.


Gays have been discriminated against heavily, more than bisexual...and they were discriminated against in this story. And there's absolutely no reason to do it...


I imagine they have had hetero relationships crammed down their throat their entire lives and made to feel inferior or unnatural simply because they do not share that inclination.


What I think is that the majority of population are always going to be hetero...there will be some that are bisexual, and some that are gay, and some that are asexual. I think this will always be the case....but I think the heteros are always going to be the majority, and the other inclination are always going to be the minority. I do not envision a gay or bisexual future...but I do envision a future where it doesn't matter.


But what I do envision is people understanding and respecting that everyone is different.


You know...when man's utltimate goal was survival, aquiring food...these things didn't matter and they were treated as the trivial details that they are. As we have become better at providing food and moved on to other aims...that's when we started getting choosey and intolerant and deciding what is right or acceptable, and what isn't. hopefully we'll figure that out in the future...


But in the meantime, gays are discriminated against...they are trampled upon and made to feel lesser by the majority. Even if it's not a deliberate act, and is just due to the fact that they are a natural minority, it still happens, in particular in comics.

And this story was the continuance of that, not the end of it...for there was no gay relationship between Sean and Element Lad. It was never anything but a hetero relationship.

And to someone without a bisexual or hetero view of relationships...I imagine it matters a great deal.


IOW, not everyone is a little bisexual...and while some bisexuals may think that...it isn't the case, anymore than everyone is hetero or gay, or even sexual at all.

LOL Ricardo, even though I believe PKD actually COULD make an interesting novel out of this topic, I still thought the story was one of the weakest of Giffens tenure. Okay, let's say "dull" is the wrong word... how about... "downright silly"?

An interesting position, Superboy, but I see two problems here:

1. It's impossible for us to truly imagine what life will be like a thousand years in the future, and

2. Even if we could, how could we as a 21st century audience relate to such a depiction?

If we were to take a modern comic book of today and transport it a thousand years into the past, what would readers living then make of it? Would they even be able to understand it (languages have changed some since then)? Then there are all sorts of things like cars, planes, phones, and other items we take for granted but for which they would have no reference.

And suppose they could grasp the language and technological differences, what would they make of our values? Women being treated as equals? People of different races interacting freely? No slaves or serfs? Nations run by elected representatives instead of kings?

They would need an annotated bible just to understand the comic book.

How many fans today would put up with such a thing? Not many, I would guess. Though we're proud of the complicated back stories that have developed around our favorite comic book characters, these back stories at least have some basis in the reality we can see and experience around us, and this has always been true of the Legion, as well.

Okay, I can see "downright silly." Though I'm curious to know why you think so.

superboy: my original point back a billion pages was that this comic used to have queer characters and with shooters run it doesn't. this relationship might not be "gay" but to me it represented "alternative" relationships, and again, as few as there are gay characters and gay relationships, i'd say there are MUCH fewer trans characters and relationships, if you want to talk about an unfair balance of representation.

further, vi and ayla's relationship was, IIRC, unquestionably homosexual in nature (as well as lyle and condo in the reboot). which is why i am surprised that so many people are focusing on THIS relationship as "the gay one". i agree it's probably not a homosexual relationship, but my point was that "does it have to be? who cares? it's still different and it makes me happy to see it."

he who wanders: actually, if it WAS 1000 years into the past, it think you'd be surprised by how accepting certain cultures were of different sexualities, female rulers/cheiftains, and race relations etc

someone else made the comment that when you're worried about survival, sometimes oppressing people plays second fiddle. ethiopians and egyptians were seen by the greeks, arguably the basis of much western civ, as a very ancient and holy and wise people, for example. it makes sense, if anything, that you couldn't think bob across the river is that bad, especially if bob has spices and silks you really want. the greeks thought the people to the north were crazy barbarians, but even then, more educated folk were quick to rehumanize them. also, look up the golden age of spain sometimes if you want to learn about religious tolerance.

sometimes, reading accounts of roman and greek interaction with other cultures, it seemed to amount to "wow, they're different. i will list all the ways they are different. then i will attempt to have sex with it because it is quite hot". (try reading hellenicity or ethnicity identity in antiquity by jonathan m hall. there was one other book that i thought was better but i so cannot find it on amazon at the moment =_=;;


All that aside, i'd like to ask older readers a question: whatever your own sexual orientation, how did you feel when you read these stories? whether it be shvaughn and jan or vi and ayla or that subdued kiss between lyle and querl or lyle's subtle relationship with condo, did you notice? did you care at all? did it even faze you? did it effect your opinion of the book? see, i read all these in trade and in the sort of "past tense", these aren't my time period, waid and co and a bit of the reboot are my time period, and uh, well i totally look for stuff like this very hopefully, but i wonder if other people even notice it when they read it? like in the middle of thinking the art is good or bad or the story is good or bad, do these relationship stand out?


my GOD my posts are ALWAYS HUGE i'm so sorry @__@

That's the point isn't it...to stretch our imagination. That's what the future offers that the recent past and present do not.

To me it's a case of on the horizon, or beyond the horizon, and I think a thousand years in the future definitely qualifies as beyond the horizon.

The same way many of us relate to fantasy or sci-fi now...with glee.

If we took them to a pre science civilization they would consider them mystical. If we took them to a post science civilization they would consider them much as we would...the result of technology and knowledge beyond their current grasp. But they could see what it was doing, even if they didn't know exactly how it worked. You give two of them a cellphone and let them talk to each other they will understand they are using a technology that allows them to communicate.

Or from our perspective in the past...

Much like we understand teleportaion or time travel..

Depends on how far back you go and which civilization you go to...


Kings were not the first form of governnance...indeed, the first forms of governance were almost entirely egalitarian..


If you go to the Spartans they won't think twice about women being treated as equals. If you go to any pre-agricultural culture they won't really think anything of it...women were largely equal.

When survival was the main goal, people couldn't afford to sit around deciding who was better...who was more important. That came when we no longer had to spend all of our time surviving.


If you go to Ancient Rome pre AD, they won't think twice about homosexuality...neither will most Native American Tribes. Neither will some cultures on the planet to this day. They won't think much about a lack of racial division.

Ancient Greece and Summeria and Post Alexander Egypt won't bat an eyelash at different races intermingling....

Prior to 13the century AD, racism as we know it now did not exist.

That stuff, overcoming it, is not a particularly futuristic, more like regaining our footing after losing it. We were that way...that way of everyone being respected because everyone was needed to survive. And as we passed beyond that we reacted in a rather immature(at the species level) fashion by becoming stratified, and immediately deciding who was better and who was more important. It's a primitive reaction to technological advancement and specialized labor...and hopefully we'll progess beyond that.

At the very least the beginnings of an evolutionary split would be in order...


In the case of Pro-Fem...that is definitely an on the horizon technology. Moreseo now than it was when the story first appeared, but it was still on the horizon when it appeared.

After all, we can do partial gender change now with basically a pill. Testosterone or Estrogen can induce huge opposite gender physical changes in a male or female. So then you just have some of the more pronounced anatomical differences to overcome...and we can already do that to a large extent with surgery.


What I consider the future to be, or let's say the Legion future, at the least, is stuff that we can conceive of now but have not really even taken the first steps towards actually achieving...

Like for alien species on the earth, to be common place, or us traveling into alternate dimensions, or time travel...

Or perhaps further development of the human mind...perhaps even an evolutionary step.

These things were what I liked about the Legion's future.

I'm not saying every culture, or let's say every alien culture, or even the entire Legion Universe has to be a Utopia..but I think at least a part of it should be, the part where the Legion exists. And that's the part I want to read about or at least from that perspective. That's what the Legion can give me that most other books cannot.

And to one other point you made about who will read what...ultimately it comes down to what do comics do that other media do not? Or what do they do better?

Well they do imagination better....

If you want to make a drama or realism oriented book...there are other mediums that offer that genre and type of story better, and more frequently. Actually there are other comics that offer that better as well, any one based in our current reality. Personally, I think comics were and should remain at the forefront of imaginative thought and visually representing it...Sci-fi and otherwise.

I look around and see Grant Morrison is pretty much the greatest writer in the business right now...he's not a particularly great dramatic writer, or teller of romantic stories, or even a great chronicler of social fables, but he has a near unmatched imagination compared to most of the writers working in the industry today. More of him would increase the comics audience.

Alan Moore is similar...his greatest attribute is also his imagination. And he also realizes that comics and comics alone are the outlet for it...


The reason comics are no longer a growing medium and no longer appeal to children are one and the same...because they are no longer about imagination. The more realistic they have become, the more the audience has shrunk...

What comics can do easily that other mediums can't is show you things you haven't seen before. If they get back to doing that, they will regain their audience, especially their younger audience...as kids are all about imagination.

The Legion is not going to survive by reading like a comtemporary book...it is intrinsically geared towards stories that the comic medium excells at, things that can only come from the mind, including the pictures...and that's what it should be doing IMO.

It's awesome. I think the purpose of this thread is for posts just like that. I can't speak for anyone else but I come here to read the thoughts of others...so by all means post away.

I'm split on the Schvaughn thing for several reasons:

- First and foremost, the Jan/Schvaughn romance was one of my favorite ever Legion romances, hell, one of my favorite comics romances. Its probably Levitz single best attempt at writing a genuine romance that combines elements of 'fantasy-romance' (you know where you almost swoon and wish it could happen to you) with a real realistic aspect of it too--it just felt so honest. When they essentially are married (or the Tromium equivalent), its one of the most beautiful sequences in Legion history.

Its because of this love for that romance that I've always had a hard time accepting the Pro-Fem reveal, because it so essentially changes the dynamic, and it does add a level of dishonesty to it. For the large majority of my Legion reading life, I've hated the story.

- Buuuuuuuuut...I must be getting soft in my old age (no jokes Pov ). When I last reread the TMK story, which was during the course of my reading the entire Legion run start to finish for the first time, I saw it in a different light. And that's mainly because I do think it is a really beautiful, powerful and strong story. And Sean/Schvaughn comes across as vulnerable and caring and has a major change in the story, like all great stories have.

And more importantly, Jan himself in the larger scope of Leigon history makes it a great story IMO. The Jan I really love is the Levitz era Jan, as he stepped up and became one of the Legion's greatest leaders, had the morals of the Silver Age with the understanding of the 80's. His acceptance of Sensor Girl and his attempt to help Brainy through Supergirl's death were moving to me. He became one of the best Legionnaires of that era.

One could say that was the greatest era of Jan. Certainly the reboot was harsh on him even prior to the Progenitor, let alone a mass-murdering loon. The threeboot is a non-entity. Even prior to Levitz Jan had spurts of great stories over his history (with one notably great early 200's issue with Roxxas). But the greatest Jan, perhaps is not the Levitz era, but the TMK Jan. Here was a Jan Arrah essentially at peace with himself, a man who was fulfilled, yet still had pathos and tragedy and still could see so much to be done with the world. A Jan that had change remain an essential part of his character, but on a much deeper level of personality and culture. His later scenes with Roxxas were equally moving, with Jan even willing to forgive the mass-murderer. Here was a Jan Arrah whose heroism eclipsed even the most potently moral of super-heroes in comics history. And you felt it in that Pro-Fem story. And on that level, it really worked too.

So I'm of two minds.

As for his sexuality, I think one can't look at Jan Arrah and see him as anything other than a man who could love anyone because of their spirit and soul. Bisexual for certain, but even beyond that I think. That's how I see Jan--perhaps 1,000 years from now reaching a point of self-actualization where he's accepted himself so completely he no longer sees such boundaries. So yes, from an overly idealistic notion (which I admit to), I see sexuality for Jan Arrah himself as a non-issue.

http://www.viagra.com/

Hey I'm not POV. Just doing what the PM told me to do.

OT:
Profem: Makes future sense. Biologics are replacing surgeries even now.

Enjoyed this story. It has generated a lot of talk on the boards, a lot of people re-thinking, not TOO many ticked off about it.

It's particularly memorable because I interpret it. Most stories: just read, go to the next. And I interpret it a bit differently as the discussions emphasize different aspects of the relationship.

I'll be happy to concede the point that some ancient societies were more accepting than others. But the human race still had to go through the Holy Roman Empire and other horrific examples of intolerance, so our road to "enlightenment" has hardly been consistent. There's no reason to assume it will remain consistent in the next millennium.

I guess I qualify as one of the older readers (44), though I read the Jan/Sean story for the first time maybe a year or so ago. I did follow the Vi/Ayla relationship as it developed during the Levitz period. I read the Lyle/Condo issue about four years or so after it was published. I think I was aware of it (and Jan/Sean) through internet groups before I read it, though.

I'm all for gay relationships in comics, and I'm not bothered by these, although I'm not giving them a ringing endorsement, either. The decision to make Jan, Condo, and Lyle gay seems built upon a weak premise: Because we never saw them with girlfriends before, they MUST be gay. (Actually, Lyle and Jan did have girlfriends who appeared once each during the ADVENTURE run.) There could be any number of reasons why we didn't see them with girlfriends. Some people wait until they are older to date. They may have been shy. Condo (as one fanfic suggested) may have had medical problems that precluded having a relationship. Jan and Lyle both seem to have been dedicated to their careers as Legionnaires and, in the latter's case, as a scientist. They may have had little time or interest in dating.

I find it easier to accept the Vi/Ayla relationship, I suppose, because both chose to date boys who were not readily available. (That changed for Ayla, of course, after Brin joined the Legion.) I can believe that both thought, for whatever reason, that they should be in a hetero relationship before accepting their true sexual identities. (And, again, I see this as a reflection of the culture that reads these stories, not how society might actually be a thousand years from now.)

As with Star Boy's race change, I would prefer it if new characters were created as being gay rather than established characters being retrofitted into that mold.

But, having said that, celebrities come out of the closet all the time, so it's perfectly reasonable that some Legionnaires would do so, as well. So, as I said, I don't have a problem with it, though I'm not perfectly sold on it, either.

I love reading intelligent posts like yours, veryvery. As Superboy said, post away!

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about giving the ancients phones (cell or otherwise), but giving them comic books in which such things are referenced. Peter Parker picks up a phone in Avengers Mansion and dials MJ who, a caption tells us, is across town at a gala event. How does an ancient know what is taking place here--how he is talking with her--unless you do as you suggest and first show him how to use a phone?

And then would you also take him on a plane ride so he can experience a quinjet? Would you show him how to use a computer? Take him for a ride in a car?

Seems like a lot of reference just so he can understand a single comic book, doesn't it? If I were the ancient, I wouldn't give a damn about reading the comic book after experiencing such things.

Anyway, this debate started because you were arguing that the Profem technology would happen much sooner than in a thousand years. You could be right. But even if it is created in the next 50 years, who's to say it won't still be available 950 years after that?

Well put, Cobie. I think you've articulated some of the reasons that make Jan such a popular and enduring character.

I qualify as one of the old timers who read each of these stories as they came out.

Jan - I identified with him, and always pegged him as the gay one during the 70's. Yes, I was aware of the Adventure era girlfriend, but I had girfriends as a teenager too. It didn't make me any less gay. Mike Grell's art had a lot to with it. He drew a Jan who was easy to be attracted to and easy to identify with.

I was disappointed when Levitz introduced the Shvaughn and Jan relationship. There was plenty of fan speculation at that point that Jan was gay. It almost felt like Levitz gave him a girfriend just to make sure we all knew that he wasn't gay. That being said, I loved Shvaughn. She was a great addition to the Legion supporting cast, and her relationship with Jan was fun so I grew to accept it.

In spite of all the thoughtfull posts on this thread, I still read the Profem story exactly as I read it when it came out. Tom and Mary finally revealed Jan as gay, very openly and very explicitly. It was affirming. I was so moved that I cried. I was pretty crushed by fan reaction to the story. It still hurts to see other fans use phrases like "throwing a bone" or "jumping threw hoops" for seeing in a story exactly what the writeres intended.

Pre-Boot Lyle and Condo - I never considered the possibility of them as a couple. When the Secret Origins story came out I accepted it at face value. Lyle was a mentor for Condo. It made sense and was a nice story. It did raise the possibilty that Condo may have been gay off panel. Poor guy, though. We never really got to know him. He died before his character was developed at all.

Vi and Ayla - I was thrilled with just about everything in the 5YL Legion. Their relationship was written so well and seemed so natural. No big coming out scene, no long winded explanations. Just two women shown in a relationship. By that point, we knew both women so well that the way they acted in the relationship was totally in character. Still one of the best same sex relationships ever portrayed in mainstream comics. About the only thing that has changed over time is my perception of Vi's primary orientation. When the storyline was initially published, I believed that both women were bisexual because of their previous relationships with guys. Over time, I've come to believe that Vi was predominantly gay and always had been. Her relationship with Duplicate Boy was never that intense. Their break up had a lot to do with him not knowing her very well. Her growth from the shy young teenager to tough soldier was handled so naturally over the years. The idea of her growing to accpet herself as gay as she grew and gained more confidence in her own identity totally works for me now. Ayla I still see as bisexual.

Mekt and Holt - Seemed very natural. Another great science fiction concept by TMK. How will we view the idea of rehabilitating criminals in the future? Lots of story potential there that we never got to see developed.

Reboot Lyle and Condo - A real missed opportunity. Reboots give the writers an opportunity to correct some of the exclusion of the past. It seemed like they were going to take advantage of it. In the end we just got hints, Condo disappaered quickly. There was never anything written about reboot Lyle that would prevent one from thinking that he was gay. There was never anything that explicitly confirmed it either. Disappointing and frustrating.

Brainy and Lyle - A cute little exchange that had no homosexual connotation for me at all. The normally emotion challanged Brainy was beside himself with worry that his dear friend was in danger. He was so excited when Lyle showed up alive and well that he hugged and kissed him. I laughed and didn't think much more about it.

Micro Lad's brother - Strange. I can't figure out Waid's motivation at all. It seemed like he introduced a gay brother just so he could say he had a gay character, while making sure that nobody on the actual team was gay. The whole 3boot was again a missed opportunity. It seemed like they were in a real hurry to give all the Legionnaires opposite sex interests so we wouldn't dare assume that any of them were gay. Let's hook Jan and Trip up early. Make sure everyone knows that Lyle has a crush on Supergirl. Make sure Atom Girl talks about cute guys. Make sure everyone knows this is the Legion of Straight Heroes. Oh by the way, Micro Lad has a gay giant brother who sleeps in pineapple boxers. That felt like "being thrown a bone".

Lightning Saga Dawnstar - The Thanagarian girl certaintly seemed to be in love with her. Again the writers never followed up and won't give us answers. I'm certainly not going to go out on a limb and speculate. Wouldn't want to be accused of jumping through hoops or seeing a queer on every corner.

For all those who see the solution as just introducing new gay characters, let me throw this out there. Bring on the new characters. I will be happy to have them. At this point in Legion history, though, no new character will ever be as iconic as the original 25 or so. Those lads and lasses will always be the in crowd. It's the delimma that will always face the Legion with race and sexual orientation. Notice the clamor and excitement for the return of Johns so called "original" and "real" Legion. Most old school fans will never accept changing of the race or orientation of one of the originals. Many will also never accept any newbies as "real Legion". It's a situation that none of the Legion's creative teams have yet been able to write the team out of. Keith, Tom and Mary made the most noble effort to date, and it is one of the reasons that I will always be a defender of their work.