Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

You raise a significant point, "Louie," that comics companies want to preserve their characters for the next media blitz a la films or cartoons. This is unfortunate, I think. It capitulates to the prevailing idea that comics are somehow just a stepping stone until the "real" medium (film) comes knocking.

One can hardly fault Marvel and DC for wanting to cash in on their properties or expose them to the widest possible audience. But to do so at the expense of their primary medium--comics--strikes me as short-sighted. Film sequels come out only every two or three years and are severely limited in the kinds of stories they can tell (which is why they play up origins, I think). Comics which come out every month are virtually unlimited in the kinds of stories they can tell. (And they don't have to deal with aging and departing actors, special effects budgets, etc.)

To dismiss comics as a stepping stone for films is to deny the uniqueness of the artform for short-term gains that can disappear once the tastes of filmgoers change.

And, of course, there's very little to suggest that a filmgoer who first experiences a character like Iron Man at the movies will seek out the comics. So if Iron Man is now, say, Rick Jones under the armor and Tony Stark is dead, it's unlikely to have any more of an effect on the title's sales than if Tony's still Iron Man.

Comics do tend to get some sort of temporary sales bump when a movie franchise first launches, but I think it's mostly from people who are already comics fans and are inspired to catch up on the character or give the title a try than it is people who decide to walk into a comics shop for the first time.

In the few instances that does happen, they are more likely to pick up a trade at Barnes & Noble than to buy the latest ongoing issue. Or maybe sometimes they'll pick up one issue for their kid on a whim or because they were begged into it.

No, the most likely step beyond a movie would be to buy its inevitable video game version or to watch an obligatory cartoon that's likely to appear shortly on TV after any successful superhero movie comes out. The ongoing comics never benefit long-term and should presumably be free to venture forward down their own path.

But the big comics companies don't see it that way. From their point of view, their characters and comics have to be iconic in order to attract licensing. And that apparently means that they can't really change that much or risk ruining the property.

And yes, comics always seem bound by their own inferiority complex...the perception that "comics are for kids". Pretty ironic, considering that they haven't been read primarily by kids in a long time.

Hey, guys--remember the Roundtable?!? Sure ya do! Anyhooz, I finally thought of something that might revive this thread from its recent doldrums:

Lately it's been clear to me that more and more posters are coming out and expressing their dislike or ambivalence about Shooter's current run on the threeboot LSH. In so many words the consensus among these posters is that the story is moving slowly and not much is happening in any given issue.

Personally, I disagree. I'm enjoying the comic more than I have since the peak of the DnA run during the reboot. It's solid storytelling and deft, much-missed characterization among our heroes.

I suspect the real reason(s) these people are disappointed with Shooter's run boils down to the following:

1) Shooter's not bringing back any Legionnaires or villains back that we'd like to see again.

2) Shooter's not telling stories similar to those we remember him telling during his classic run.

3) Shooter's not disgarding what Waid built up in favor of something more strongly resembling the Legion he wrote before. He's being pretty faithful to the Threeboot world.

In other words: Shooter's not rehashing what he did before at ALL, dammit!!!

I'm sure I'm gonna get a slew of replies from those nay-sayers explaining to me how this isn't the case at all, but it's gonna be real hard to convince me otherwise!

I dare ya!

Can I add something else? I've noticed also a great deal of love towards (gasp) the Reboot more recently, especially on the Action/reboot/Threeboot roundtable, which is for me, the antithesis of what Shooter and Manapul are doing right now. Reboot was fast-paced, action-oriented, teenage adrenalized storytelling, moving two dimensional characterization in a very souped up environmental context. My two bits.

Kinda backs up my point a little, doesn't it, Ricardo?

I'll back up and say that I'm far from anti-Reboot--I'm voting for a LOT of the characters from that version of the LSH. At the same time, I'm enjoying Shooter's take on the Threeboot, and there are plenty of posters here who are enjoying it as well. But I feel as each month goes by, and Shooter isn't living up to (or down to, I'd say) certain expectations based on his classic Legion run, more and more posters are coming out of the woodwork with negative reactions.

Am I denying that some of the stated arguments are valid? No. But I feel the underlying problem here has to do with what I've stated above. If Shooter's scripts were evoking the more Silver Age-y sensibilities like I think people were expecting them to, we'd probably have rave, glowing reviews from these same posters.

People, Shooter's style has evolved over the four decades since his run on Adventure. He's still a damn good writer and is crafting a story with more modern comics storytelling sensibilities. Maybe you can get more of what you want by rereading the pre-DnA reboot, eh?

After Waid, I think most people were expecting and hoping for a quicker paced story. Pacing was a real issue with Waid, and stories never came to a satisfying conclusion. Some people might be feeling that we are getting more of the same. I honestly believe that this story is going somewhere, and there will be a real payoff. Shooter is just doing a lot of setting up.

...and character-building. Let's not forget that! He's taking so many of these characters who were practically blank slates previously and letting us get to know them again--for the first time! It's obviously his first priority while he builds up the uber-story slowly. And it's not like NOTHING's happening for cripe's sake, people! Yeesh!

Don'tcha think I'm onto something here that goes beyond the "quicker pace" thing, Jerry? I'll admit myself that I had some preconceptions about what Shooter would be doing, especially after reading solicitations touting Legion tryouts and stuff.

The difference is that I could put aside those expectations and appreciate what he was actually DOING! I think many of those who are disappointed never could put theirs aside.

On this point I really do commend Shooter: he has a reasonable number of characters and can work on giving them actual personalities. But Does this mean we'll never see some of the other Legionnaires? One of the appeals to me has always been that the Legion is this massive force. While keeping the numbers down does make sense, it just feels like it's going against the nature of the LSH. The character development is great, but can't we have our cake and eat it too?

Nope. I actually like some of the new characters, especially over the last couple episodes.

I didn't read too many of his stories from that era. Most of what I have read of Shooter's regarding the legion is that sex charged and rather juvenile character motivation write up from some time back that is floating around the internets. I'm more familiar with his Dark Dominion stuff.

I don't think that's a bad thing. He's using the materials that were left behind to continue his current work.

I think that is certainly the case with some folks. Not being super-familiar with his Legion writing, I don't fit that mold. I have just found that until the last couple of issues, I have been generally uninterested in the story or the characters.

You mentioned the height of DnA in the reboot, and I find that to be a good point of comparison. In both cases, a new creative team takes over after a long-established writing team is gone. Yet there was a much shorter transition period between the end of the original reboot team writers to the beginning of the Blight story.

And the method of storytelling was much better, IMO. In both cases, the story opens with action, but in the first Shooter issue, it is a fairly typical comic book fight scene. Legion of the Damned opened in media res on an Earth that had fundamentally changed. Granted that over time the "current global/galactic apocalyptic menace of the arc" motif got a bit old after a while, but in this case, the story made me sit up and pay attention. It's taken Shooter a lot longer to get to that point with this crew.

The comparison stands out as I had bought a slew of back issues to fill in from where I had left the Legion years ago up to the beginning of the threeboot. I then sat down and read the whole reboot. The read was fine for me until the T20/T30 split (I liked the T30 stuff, but hated the T20 story). And then after the reunion story (which is about where I stopped), I had a perk of interest with the Dark Circle story, and then I was bored to tears. When DnA came on the scene it made me really pay attention, especially not being at all familiar with either of them.

Shooter had name recognition and a history with the Legion, which (in my cynical view) was mainly a gimmick.

Again, he's getting there (not that it may make much of a difference). Unfortunately, I think the foundations of this current version of the Legion don't make it very easy to "fix". I was never keen on the "eat it grandpa" attitude, and I think that this and a few other things have cast the mold for this group, at least to me.

I don't know - Both the original Legion and the Reboot had definitive origin stories. That is a significant missing item with the Threeboot. Would the documenting of how the team comes together help connect the team with the readers? Does the Legion (any version) need an origin to define itself?

I would really love Reboot being somewhat of a prequel to Threeboot, at the very least. If there's a good "LSH Classified" series to read, it would be a hypothetical range of stories to chronicle what happened between, explaining half of the Legion's sudden changes in state and character. Maybe I just can't accept Threeboot Lyle being the counterpart to the headband versions.


And did Shooter go back to his teenage roots? No... it'd have been nice to see the creator of Mordru and the Fatal Five do them right. And did he bring anything new to the table? Well, if you count KK's steriod intake, or the simplicity of changing hair shades ten centuries from now, then yes.

KK's "steroid" intake I think would be more due to the artist. Shooter I think gets credit for the upgrade in testosterone.

Though a BIG fan of Shooter's run I do think the better plan presuming a one year run, would have been to wrap up the basics of this invasion in six issues max then relegate that story to the long term, while begginning the next major arc.

"OT, HELLO! Miss Mexico" (watching Miss Universe)

Characterization IMO has been great for those team members prominant to this arc, but we're still only getting one arc out of JS. Two or three arcs would have allowed him to move along a bigger portion of the team and to not leave behind fans of members not important to this invasion.

Frustratingly, this "graphic novel" pacing has long been rejected by fandom, it's not a good feeling to be ignored. I commend Fables' author as he seems to be able to pull together stories that satisfy both the monthly and the graphic novel crowd, but he's a rare artist for being able to do that.

It is funny to think that the greatest comic book of all time, Sandman, was NEVER a 6-issue solver. Most arcs ran for at least 8 issues. I am getting old, definitely.

Yu and me both, but as the saying goes, getting old is better than the alternative.

Gaiman's portfolio inside and outside of comics goes towards his uniqueness. I just think many writers are trying to pull off more than they are capable of, given fans reactions to their efforts.


Most I think would be better off either writing one to three issue arcs or writing graphic novels without attempting to serialize the story into a monthly.

That's not to say I believe Jim Shooter is not capable of writing an intrigueing monthy suitable for a graphic novel. My thought here was only that he had room for two novels/arcs and someone made the decision to write one very long one.

I think once this story comes out in the novel, many of the detractors of his monthly effort will improve their opinion on his story-telling.

Agreed. And, to add to that thought, I remember most of TMK's detractors, at that time, complained that:

- Too much was going on;
- There weren't enough action scenes (curiously, the worst issues on the entire run were the all-action issues with Brandon Peterson);
- There were no clear story arcs, rather a number of plots solving-and-beginning intermittently (well, much of what I do expect with a story as large as LSH history);
- We didn't see enough of (any) character.

It's just the same thing, in a different way. Or am I wrong?
Curiously, again, LOST is a huge hit on TV following the rules of TMK's run. Weird, huh?

So we've heard from posters who are either fans of Shooter's run or who've at least not given up on it yet...what about the detractors? Do any of you care to address, one way or another, whether or not I'm right about the underlying reasons why you're just not feeling it?

Good point, Ricardo...some of the posters who are not enjoying Shooter's Threeboot run are big fans of Lost and the TMK era (I'm lookin' at YOU, Cobie! ). Certainly, Lost's pacing is ponderous at best historically (moreso than Shooter's run, actually) and very character-focussed (kinda like Shooter has been)--is this not acceptable for a comic book or something? How can anyone who likes Lost and/or TMK be so turned off by Shooter's run?!?!?

I certainly appreciate the character building that is going on, but it's a tough game to play with a divided Legion fandom. You could be right about preconceptions, but I think it goes deeper than that. It might have something to do with conflicting preconcieved notions about what each Legionnaire's personality SHOULD be. Mystery Lad's currrent thread, again, illustrates that each era or version of the Legion has its fans. Most of the members, with time, have been shown in four to five different versions. Each version had a bit of a different take on the member's personalities. Shooter is again giving us a new take on each personality. For years, we more mature fans have frustrated the younger readers with our nostalgia trips. This time around, a good portion of the remaining fan base came on board with the Reboot or the early Waid run. The youngsters are now becoming middle agers with their own nostalgia trips. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Shooter is not only up against preconceved notions, but that he is up against many layers of preconceived notions. Leaving us agian with the question of whether Legion fans can ever be satisfied. The jury is still out. The story is still a few months from over. I will be anxious to see what those who aren't buying in, at this point, have to say when the whole thing is done.

They'll probably HATE it...unless the baddies turn out to be scouts working for--the Sun Eater! At which point, the Legion has to recruit the Fatal Five and new member Ferro Lad (who makes the ultimate sacrifice) in a last-ditch plan to save Earth and the U.P.!

Sorry...couldn't help myself!

actually, none of your points are why i dislike his run. i don't know why i'm even bothering to reply to this.

as i've said before, and other detractors have also echoed, my biggest problem is his sexist treatment of the characters. when i see sexism in a comic i don't want it, simple as that. it's worse when that sexism is coupled with an artist that i love and a cast of characters i like. i like the "funny-quirky" time he spends on the male characters, but the girls are pretty much cardboard cutouts and sexual fetish objects, repeatedly described in terms of their sexual activity.

if it wasn't offending me so much, i could probably live with the plot holes, the nonsensical character reactions, and unending, repetitive plot elements and forgotten previous plot points. i can tolerate a whole lot of crappy writing as long as it doesn't offend me, actually. right now i buy it and read it, then try to forget what i read for my sanity. i'm buying it for the art now, pure and simple. this is how i'm trying to justify with my conscience. "its ok,you're an artist, just look at the art, this is almost work-related"

i was horrified that someone as infamously homophobic as shooter was put on the legion book, previously a front runner in the presentation of queer characters in comics. i feel guilty every time i buy the book that i'm supporting him, it literally makes me feel a little sick. i was hoping he'd be mediocre, that they'd just go on a harmless little adventure or two or three, that it would be innocuous and i would be able to forget the bad taste in my mouth.

however, his sexism is so rampant and blatant that i'm at a loss. i was just hoping that he wouldn't do anything homophobic, before this i had no idea the depths of the crazy i would be facing. now i feel like a traitor every time i pick up the book both to my gender and the queer community. personally, i'm horrified that DC even hired him in the first place given his track record. i know of few other industries that would hire someone infamous for their homophobia. something like this is what Human Resources gets called in for, what lawsuits are made of, i can only imagine how uncomfortable it must be for gay and gay friendly creators and staff at DC.

at this point i've been just trying to wait for him to leave. i can't tell you how hopeful i was upon hearing the rumor that he was leaving the book, even though it's pretty much been disproven by this point.

It did well enough without one for the first ten years...

Seriously, the Legion is one series that doesn't depend much on its origin story. Unlike, say, Superman, where so much has historically been derived from an origin that became mythologized.
It seems that modern TV is following the same trends comics have (decompression, long story arcs and endless serialization), just a few years behind.

(Just to clarify, this latest topic isn't meant to insult anybody, but to 'out' something that hasn't been touched upon in the criticism of Shooter's run. Bottom line is I think expectations were painted from his classic Legion runs and is a huge factor for many of those not enjoying this one.)

This is a bit of a surprise to me, especially given Shooter's odd tendency to have Colossal Boy and Star Boy touching (and / or inquiring as to the others welfare) in almost every panel where they are together. Then again, perhaps Manapul is just drawing them a little closer together than the scripts call for, and Shooter having been shoved out the door isn't in a position to comment on it.

Contrasted with Waid, who didn't seem to have much interest in same-gender interactions, stuff like Lightning Lad having a poster of Cosmic Boy on his wall sort of jumps out at me. (Did any of the female characters *ever* talk to any of the other female characters in his run? Probably, but not that I recall...)

On what grounds do we base the notion that Shooter is homophobic?

I've never heard anything before about Jim being homophobic. Did he have something to do with Byrne not directly outing Northstar, maybe? If he did, it's not terribly surprising, given the climate of the time and how powerful the CCA still was. It certainly would've been revolutionary, though, to out Northstar 100 issues before he officially was, though.

In any case Jim had a lot of character building to do, so maybe bringing someone 'out' would've been a little drastic for starters, I dunno. Set's ideas about CB and SB are interesting, though. I think SB has shown interest in women previously, but I'm not sure about CB. Was CB's brother shown to be gay during Waid's run? If so, did Gim react to it in any way that would contradict Set's theory?

And apparently, the Harbinger section of this timely installment of Comic Book Urban Legends Rvealed at CBR would appear to refute any claim of Shooter's homophobia.