Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

I definitely don't see any misogyny or homophobia in Shooter's run so far. In fact, comics are more homophobic when they do not incorporate sexual tones - just as the case in 99% of mainstream comics - as if characters did not have any sexual desires, misconceptions or prejudices.
In fact, Shooter has revealed his main character in Harbinger WAS gay. So, it doesn't make any sense to call him homophobic in lieu of portraying (maybe) some characters in a biased light.
Good writers are not vehicles for characters. Otherwise, we should call Keith Giffen a violent misanthrope for developing Lobo.

I believe part of the reason the Shooter legion hasn't taken off is a lot of potential readers would have been put of by the last few months speculation that Shooter has been fired. Between that and the Legions reputation for being rebooted at the drop of a hat I can understand people's reluctance at getting involved.

I'm sure that's part of it, Harbi. But remember all that talk about him bringing back Night Girl and the other subs when it was revealed the try-outs would be brought back? I'm sure NO one thought it would be just all-new characters! There was a definite prejudice about what Shooter would supposedly bring back, and I'm sure some of the backlash stems from that.

Shooter's original idea sounds VERY interesting.

In the Shooter personality blurbs for the Legionnaires, didn't he say something along the lines of "could be gay, who knows?" when referring to Element Lad? Doesn't sound like a homophobe to me...

re: Shooter's run, I've enjoyed it well enough. i *will* admit to some disappointment that Tenzil and Wildfire haven't been brought back since it was revealed a while ago that Bedard and Calero's stint was to set-up Shooter's, but it certainly isn't a deal-breaker. If non-usage of Tenzil and Wildfire was a dealbreaker, I'd rarely be reading a Legion book.

I remain convinced that a fanwide notion that the 3Boot is going away following Lo3W is the prime culprit in Shooter's declining LSH sales.

I think you guys (well, Lardy) have misread my Legion sentiment. I’ve come to like the Reboot, but I’m by no means its biggest supporter. I argued at length with Reboot (the poster) for quite awhile on aspects of it. That said, I think the reboot is superior to the threeboot and wish there never was a threeboot at all at this point. But Legion Lost is definitely not one of my favorite eras, as I was very underwhelmed by Legion Lost. DnA’s best stories were when the Legion finally kicked back off and that only lasted for a brief period.

Frankly, I’m very underwhelmed by the threeboot in general and I was initially excited about it. I’ll say from the get-go that I love the art from Kitson to Calero to Manupaul so that doesn’t really play into my reasoning. I think they’ve drawn an energetic and dynamic series thus far, and many of my favorites, like Tinya, have really looked great. And I’ve been quite a fan of Shooter throughout his entire career, from Adventure to his Marvel tenure, to Valiant. I love many of Valiant comics, and I find anecdotes about how he was a ruthless bastard of an EiC amusing because that era of Marvel was just so damn good that he must have been doing something right.

And yet, with the highest hopes possible for his return, I’ve been let-down. My frustration of the threeboot in general surely plays into it, but there’s more to it than that. I just can’t see how you (Lardy), or anyone (and there are many on this board, Tromium and Matthew), all of you posters who’ve opinions I respect and I’ve agreed with on various topics could find this run so good, let alone excellent. There hardly seems to be much going on, with the same action sequences with a little sense of progress. There is no clear antagonists other than the stereotypical manipulative politicians and the “Great Enemy on the Cusp of Invading” which plagued DnA’s run so much. New characters do not equal new ideas and thus far I’m still searching for that feeling of something new.

For the characters themselves I’m having a hard time caring about any of them. Threeboot Ayla and Garth could have their heads ripped off and I’d react as I would to Marvel’s latest version of the New Warriors—I really wouldn’t care one way or another. They’ve just failed to grab my interest. I was hoping Shooter could step in and change that, but I don’t feel it yet. Now I haven’t read the last issue (or 2 possibly) but thus far, I’ve felt little connection to Ayla, Gim or Cham, and they’ve had a good amount of screen time. Garth comes across as unlikeably dim-witted at best, while Timberwolf seems a little of the ‘same old’ I’ve seen 100 times before. I guess people keep saying there is great characterization but I’ve yet to see it.

You keep claiming there are new things happening but I don’t feel that way at all. I certainly don’t want the Fatal Five again, nor do I want the LoSV, and it would be akin to having my eyes burned out if I have to even read a solicitation for another Darkseid or Universo appearance. I’ve been advocating new antagonists for years now. So where are they? Besides some played out politicians and another alien race, are there any? Have the two most recent issues begun to prove me wrong?

I was hoping Wildfire and Tenzil would make their way into the book, but I’m not advocating bringing back the entire past membership all at once. Because at this point, I find the threeboot versions of the Legion unrecognizable so I fail to see the point of bringing back someone else. But yet, where is the new members that are showing his era to be any different? Or if you say why not no new members at all, I won’t argue that, but then fine—what new situation is Element Lad in right now that he has never been in before?

Obviously, you (Lardy) are being over the top to create a dialogue (and I dig it), but I’m having a hard time getting any enthusiasm for the current Legion anymore. As I’ve said elsewhere, the same applies for the Teen Titans and JLA. It all comes down to subjectivity, but where is the dynamic? I’m shocked so many of you like this version of the Legion. What am I missing? What haven’t I given a really good look at in my current state of business and exhaustion? Where have I failed to see the brilliance? Strip away all of Frances’ art and what am I missing? I dare you to prove to me I didn’t waste my $2.99 these last several months. Because I take greater joy in reading Eryk Davis Ester’s three paragraph posts on how the Legion could go forward from here than I do reading any single Legion issue in the past several years.

After re-reading a large bulk of THE LEGION (I'm now into "Foundations"), I'll state that the 3boot wasn't really necessary at all. I still don't understand why the book was rebooted once again. I refuse to believe that Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis were planned so far ahead that a 3boot was made necessary to tell those tales.

But it's here anyway and I'm enjoying Shooter's run a lot more than Waid's.

But if the truth be known... I enjoyed Johns' ACTION LSH a lot more, and I regularly enjoy the tooniverse LSH/31C issues more than the 3boot. They're more like the "real" LSH to me.

I would agree with every single one of those statements!

I agree very much that the Reboot didn't need rebooted again. It was Rokk-solid! I contend that it was Mark Waid's star power that made it happen. Why he'd want to tear down something he helped build is beyond me. But Shooter's making diamonds out of Waid's coal, so I'll take what I can get.

And Cobester, I'll give your post some more thought and respond in kind.

I still insist that the Reboot itself was never necessary. Thus, I didn't care at all it was wiped, as that was just another book in the market who happened to have Legion of Super-Heroes on the cover. And, no, Action Legion doesn't excite me more than the current book. In fact, I find it hard to find excitement on a collateral book who seems to disregard the main book at all and place all the emphasis on Superman.
Maybe it is just my way, but I can't respect that. People complained about Byrne, but Johns has done pretty much the same to Shooter/Manapul.

Guys I have to say, and I hope no one takes offense, but this is better than watching Soaps

Here is what I recall of Shooter's alleged homophobia. If veryvery has more information, I am interested in hearing it.

Shooter wrote a story for issue #23 of the oversized Hulk magazine in 1980 that started the frenzy. One of the purposes of Marvel experimenting with the magazine format, at that time, was so they could present more adult oriented storylines. For example, Howard the Duck and Bev had a sexual relationship in Howard's magazine and female breasts were occasionally shown. Shooter's Hulk story had Bruce Banner on the run and checking into a YMCA to keep a low profile and recover. A guy made advances toward him in the shower. Banner became angry, Hulked out, and roughed the guy up before storming out of the Y in a rage.

A number of readers found the scene to be homophobic. There were a few letters printed in follow up issues of the magazine, but the debate really caught fire in the pages of "The Comics Journal". Shooter responded in print and in an interview with the journal. I no longer have the issues, but remember his responses as being fairly pompous, defensive, and typical of a straight guy who just didn't get what all the fuss was about. He essentially denied being homphobic (as all homophobes do), said that Banner's rage had to do with an attempted sexual assault/rape and had nothing to with anti gay feelings. He went on to say that other characters in the story were gay and the readers just didn't know it. He actually went as far as saying the guy in the red striped shirt on page X, panel X is gay. How do I know that? Because I wrote the stroy and I say he is. Letter writers then objected to his characterzation of the sexual advance as an attempted rape, Shooter talked about different intepretations of the art, and the debate went around in circles. He was also nailed pretty hard on Marvel not having any openly gay characters and his responsibility for this in his Editor-in-Chief capacity.

Personally, I didn't find the Hulk story offensive. I was still in high school when all this happened. I knew that I was attracted to guys, but really didn't accept the gay label yet. I thought I was going through a bisexual phase, and really didn't know any openly gay people or have much of a point of reference. The debate in the the journal fascinted me, and opened my eyes to gay politics and issues. It was really the first time I saw these issues debated so openly and intelligently.

Shooter certainly didn't win any points for the way he handled the debate. To me, his responses were more immature, ignorant, and uninformed than homophobic. And hey, it was over 28 years ago. I have to assume that Shooter, like most straight guys I know and society in general, has evolved a little on gay issues in that time. I also undersatnd that he was a pretty egotistical and tyrannical manager during his tenure with Marvel. I don't know the guy, and have no idea what is truly in heart. The sexaully charged descriptions of the Legionnaires from years ago that are posted elsewhere in this forum are certainly sophomoric. Shooter's return to writing the Legion in their 50th year isn't about any of that stuff to me. His return is about honoring his contributions to the Legion's history. His return is about honoring the exuberance of the 13 or 14 year old kid who actaully got to write the Legion. That kid represents the fan that all of us used to be. Let bygones be bygones, and let's see if the kid can still bring the magic. I was impressed that DC gave him the chance. I was also impressed by his humble comments in interviews when he accepted the assignment. It's a noble experiment and fitting way to celebrate the anniversary. I guess the magic isn't there for everyone. So be it. The reasons are complex and many. I'm enjoying the story and anticpating each new issue. I hope fans will wait until the storyline is done before judging it too harshly. I don't find his treatment of the women to be sexist, though I understand how some would.

The homophobia is the same old homophobia of exclusion. Background characters in red striped shirts still don't count. This is nothing exclusive to Shooter, though. TMK remain the only Legion creators who practiced inclusion. I'm not going to beat Shooter up over it too much.

ricardo, you're saying 'well characters shouldn't be vehicles" but then you're giving him credit for doing just that with harbinger? you can't have it both ways.


sorry, if it didn't happen in print, I don't believe it at all. it's easy to say after the fact that someone's gay, because it takes no courage and only like, what three people? know about it. Shooter has a history of reinventing his past. "i would have done X Y and Z" yet in his actual runs he never gets around to it. there is absolutely no excuse for that. if it's not there, it's not there, that's all there is to it.

Probably not in this community, but in the small group that makes up queer comic book readers, Shooter is infamous for mandating that no character in the marvel universe would be gay. He then proceeded to write a story for Hulk in which Bruce Banner is almost raped by men at a YMCA. writer Byrne was only able to imply that the character Northstar was gay, any attempts by him to reveal Northstar's sexuality was shot down by Shooter and the editing crew.

I've never once heard an apology or explanation for these actions. i'd rather get a statement from him and an assurance to change his ways rather him retconning his own sordid history. not compound the issue with, yes, sexist presentation of female characters. good writers don't alienate women, queer people, or hey, queer women. i don't feel like not having to put up with sexist crap in a utopian future is that much to ask, honestly.

i am also not quick to give shooter any credit for character positioning as alluding to anything. please. that is an incredibly weak ground and if anything thats manapul's arena. the strongest hope i have right now is lyle still being gay, that maybe that exchange with his father was alluding to something. (he's either waving lyle's heterosexuality in our faces or hinting that he's bi. as lyle still seems crazy-obsessed with girl-who-acts-confusing-number-three, this is the weakest hope in the world for me.)

Adriana - What I said was that characters are not vehicles for a writer's personality. I don't think Geoff Jones thinks like Superman because he writes it that way. I can deal very well with characters as bluntly stupid as Wolverine without thinking that Chris Claremont is a cold bloody murderer.
Shooter was the creator of gay characters, during his run on Legion. Levitz actually toned down any homosexual overtone in LSH. Jerry was especially clever to notice that militance over fiction usually leads to censorship or worse. I can see Hulk being a chauvinistic mf. Why is that wrong, from the point of view of fictional characters? I can still think of him as a jackass - I do have my own opinions, you know? I don't think Hulk is anyone's role model.
What (IMO) you are venting is a hatred (or disregard) for Shooter based simply on what you've heard about the man himself, not on his writing. His art has nothing to do with the man: if those two were so intrinsically mixed to the point of his art being his personality, then I would have a problem (yes, I hate artists who tend to place victimization/pity as basis for their art).
I have yet to see his allegedly misogyny on paper, more so that ANY other DC Comics writer. I feel much more offended by Ian Churchill's portrait of women as half-assed teenage bimbos. But I don't see people going on him as a homophobe.
What I see NOW is good storytelling with fallible characters for the first time since TMK. In fact, this was IMO the strength of Giffen's run: very dubious portrait of heroes. Yes, they had problems and prejudices. If I wanted politically correct books, I'd read some new Disney material.

Well, you got me to post on the threeboot again

About a year and a half ago I really started to see where I'd been slightly wrong in my willingness to let the threeboot happen without any peep against it. Because there was never any real reason for the reboot to be cancelled and its akin of getting the crapped kicked out of you once in elementary school and then the bully shows back up in High School to beat you up and steal your girlfriend. What I really wanted was to keep reading about the original Legion, whether from the final issue of TMK or even from the Magic Wars on, both of which could have worked. But the Reboot Legion was fine on its own with only a handful of major problems (of which I shall never concede, such as Sensor). Yet all of those problems could have been addressed suitably. Shame on Mark Waid. And shame on me for letting the Nazi's take the Rhineland.*

*I figure if we're going for soap opera arguements, I might as well go with a Nazi reference for old time's sake

ricardo: ahhh i think you lost me. the HULK is not being weird in that book. the entire situation that he's in is strange and offensive and that is created by the writer. i don't know how to explain that having "gay" guys attempt to rape someone in a comic is messed up on the writer's end. it's lame and homophobic.

i do not hate shooter because of what i've heard. as i've said before, i was still reading the book, just hoping he wouldn't do anything crazy in regards to gay people. if i hated him so much, i wouldn't have picked it up period. (i will not, for example, read anything by orson scott card).

it wasn't until the lopresti fill in that i got freaked out. before that i was going "okay, projectra's a little weird, i wonder where that's going... this seems pretty fun and cute though. poor lightning lad."

and then that one issue happened where it got all creepy. creepy enough for me to say something on the board in the review thread for that issue. it was there that someone (insomniac girl?) said something to the effect that she wasn't surprised because of that one interview and that he'd said something creepy about dream girl. after inquiring further i was then directed to that horrifying interview where he describes the sex lives of the girls in what can only be called a REALLY gross manner. before that i had no idea the depths of his crazy.

"Maybe it won't happen again" i prayed. and again, more weird crap came out of the book that left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

i have an extremely high tolerance for bad writing. in fact, previously, i read books solely for the art. basically, i only want either 1) good writing or 2) good art. i will put up with horrible art for good writing and horrible writing for good art. EXCEPT when i feel like the writer is being offensive. then I drop the book. except with legion. again, this is the first time i've ever stuck with a book that's offended me this much, i've never had such a shine to a universe before. it's causing me a lot of grief.

honestly, people argue about this legion or that legion, but i don't care. nostalgia means almost nothing to me because i'm a newer reader. i actually have only a vague sense of who "TMK" or "giffen" did, these names are nothing to me, i don't really care if they were more or less sensitive to you because you know what? I don't even know if i read them. i'm just talking about what i see from shooter.

i do NOT care which legion it is as long as it's either written well or drawn well. i do not care if saturn girl is an evil creature from the black lagoon, i don't care if lightning lad decides he'll become polka dot lad, as long as it makes sense and it's written well? i'm there! or if the artist makes him look amazing, i'm there! i thought a LOT, if not MOST of the writing for archie legion was horrendous, but i wasn't offended by it so I didn't care. "whatever! space and superheroes and querl is adorable, i'm totally on this train".

i don't think he's a good writer. that's all there is to it. he's good at characterizing the BOYS. he's really good at that. but what about the other half of the team? there's nothing there. that's a bad writer. not to mention the weird plotholes, not to mention the dropped plot threads, not to mention the inconsistency with the characters in general. he writes a good cham, but a good cham does not a legion, and does not a good book make, dude.

if you can't see the misogyny there, i don't know what to tell you, but honestly, from your comments you also don't seem to care ("If I wanted politically correct books, I'd read some new Disney material."). So basically, even if you did agree that he was sexist and homophobic, it wouldn't matter to you. so i don't know why you're bothering to make excuses for him.

lardy, i believe was asking us what problems we had with shooter's run. my problem is that he's sexist and i wish there was a better word for being prejudiced against gay people other than homophobic ('gayist' just isn't right :/) because that's what shooter is and it comes through very clearly in how he writes.

Adriana - Just to make it clearer:

HE who? The writer or the character? If you mean the character, I really don't "care", as long as it makes an interesting story/character. If you mean HE as "Jim Shooter", I do care - but Legion o Super-Heroes is NOT Jim Shooter. It happens to be written by him. I don't see him venting a dislike for girls "subliminally" on LSH. Maybe you can see bad writing. Fine. But I find it strange to say Shooter is an homophobe by reading a single work - even you concedes you have never read anything else by him, materials that often contradict your point.

One of my favorite bands is The Fall. Mark E. Smith is a music genius for me, but personally, he is absolutely gross. So, yes, art for me is in a plateau different from the artist and I can separate stances.

Northstar was pretty darn obvious from, IIRC, issue six, where Guardian / Vindicator is recruiting him to the team and says that he's a big sports star who has all the money and women he wants, even if he doesn't want the women...

I was actually expecting for him to be revealed to have AIDS, since Byrne portrayed him as coughing or otherwise sick a few times in the first 24 issues, and, in comic-book land, heroes *never* get sick unless it's a plot point or enemy action!

When the news started up with Northstar 'coming out' it was years after Alpha Flight lost whatever mojo it had, and just looked like a pointless stunt.

CB does have a poster of a female sports star in his room, which may or may not mean anything about his gender preferences (I'm gonna assume that Garth having a poster of Rokk in his bedroom says nothing about his gender preference and more about him thinking it's cool to have a poster of his fellow founder and good friend).

Who knows. CB and Violet have also been drawn together quite a bit. Maybe it's a CB/SB/Violet threesome!

actually, he WAS going to have aids! that was one of the attempts byrne took to out him and it got strangled into being something magical IIRC.

You are right: there was even some publicity on that, but the backlash was strong - as far as I remember. Considering the moment in history, I would be both an eye-opener but a bit too blatantly clichéd. Anyway, I always saw the LSH as a discreet and non-biased forum for diversity (in spite of many complaints from - what I see - more vocal militants). And Shvaughn Erin was a much better construct on a gay character (not to say unexpected also!) than any Marvel I've seen so far. Here was a gay character who was living his/her love for the sake of it, not because he had a point, as far too many gay characters seem to drag on.

Was this the issue where Saturn Girl said she wanted to do something 'shocking' with Lightning Lad?

Seemed pretty in-character for a woman who doesn't like being in command, who has just had a grueling command experience that got her yelled at by the people she saved, the local 'hero' who dissed her for helping, and then some of her own teammates for some of the actions she took on the mission, wanting to let someone else 'be in charge' for an hour *on her terms.*

Since I don't know of any other examples (and I was guessing at the first one), I'm not sure what you mean here.

He's given Imra alone more characterization than Waid gave any two other female Legionnaires. He's had her use her powers very imaginatively (and done the same with Cham and Star Boy).

He's also had Imra act out, and he's had Projectra act out, and he's had Timber Wolf act out, and he's had Lightning Lad go a little off the rails. That's two girls *and* two guys who have been under some pressure. He's certainly not portraying them unevenly or 'picked on' the girls. For every girl that's acting 'weird,' he's got a guy who'se similarly not exactly shining under pressure.

And for every Projectra, Imra, Garth or Brin, there's a Cham, Brainy, Thom, Val, Violet, Tinya, Ayla or Shady that are totally dealing with it. He's not shown a preference for the ladies holding it together or falling apart, he's being pretty darn even-handed in his portrayal of male and female characters, with some being under more pressure than others (Lu's planet didn't blow up or anything, and then have all of her possessions sold off from under her, so yeah, she's not having quite the sucky week that Projectra is having, Gim isn't having to deal with being blamed for every single thing that's gone wrong, and isn't getting 45,000 angry calls a day, so he's not really cracking under the strain of Garth's job).

Seems like the characterization and plot-lines have been involved, consistent and fairly spread between the two genders, to me.

Like?

Examples?

He hasn't addressed some of the plot threads left over from Waid's run (such as whether or not Sun Boy and Terror Firma are joining the team or what the Templar dudes are doing with Cos) or Bedard's run (such as whether or not Tenzil or Wildfire will be joining), but he's been dealing with *HIS* plot threads just fine, IMO. I'm not exactly waiting with bated breath for him to resolve what happened to Praetor Lemnos either, since Waid himself lost interest in that plot point...

Still not seeing that. Every now and then I see a line that doesn't seem to fit (in the latest issue, Luornu says something that sounds like it was a line intended for a different character, but I consider that an actual *error* from whomever placed that word-ballon on the page, like those times in a comic where you see the word-ballons have gotten switched around and Superman is being a jerk and Batman is being a boy scout or whatever).

My biggest pet-peeve in this whole run? Giselle changing from a cool-looking alien in the first two issues to a gray-skinned human in the later appearances. And I have no idea if that's a Shooter decision or a Manapul decision.

This is the most engaging Legion run since Lightle was drawing it, IMO, right about the time that Sensor Girl, Tellus, etc. joined the team.

In Shooter's defense, those descriptions/synopses he wrote on the Legionnaires (which are available for view here) were written, like, what-- 30+ years ago or something? I will agree that they are a bit creepy at times, but I think it's only fair to assume the man may have matured somewhat in the past 30-plus years.

I hope people aren't holding what I've written here as recently as 5 years ago against me now.

You have a smiling baby as an avatar. I can't even hold what you are writing NOW against you...

About Northstar: I'm actually quite GLAD that the AIDS thing was dropped in hindsight. I mean, what message would Marvel have been sending if the first openly gay mainstream superhero also had AIDS? That everyone who's gay is going to get AIDS? That was a common misperception at the time, and I'm glad somebody killed that particular plot point (though I hate the elves thing that replaced it ).