Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?

As for Destiny, Wikipedia, paints the character who appeared in Weird Mystery Tales and in a Superman story as being the same character as the member of the Endless. he's not considered a different character.

Unless you're getting Doctor Destiny mixed up in there, Superboy? I know Wikipedia's not exactly canon and has had some accuracy issues, but I've found it pretty reliable for comics characters, overall.

He's not considered a different character by whoever wrote that Wikipedia segment...that doesn't mean it's true.


DC has long had clear rules about DC Universe Characters and Vertigo Characters. More or less, they are in different Universes and don't crossover.

I'm not saying he is or he isn't...I'm just saying that unless some guy at DC wrote that article...it's just their opinion.

DC has a longstanding policy of Vertigo and the Regular DC Uni being separate Univerese...I mean I think a few characters have crossed over, but it's not generally considered that they inhabit the same comics Universe.


Not at all. Doctor Destiny is a JLA Villain with a skull mask. Destiny is a former book host on the order of Cain and Abel integrated into the Sandman Universe, and like the Trapper, is largely faceless.


Me too...but I just know DC has a policy about Vertigo and the main DC Uni being separate Universes.

Dan DiDio used a business jargon, but I don't think Shooter is still employed. Dan said "Shooter has still one year of stories" to be told. If he is just like Dixon, he may have handed his scripts a long time ago. Francis may help us on that (meaning: he seems to be very advanced with the book - not a single fill-in artist so far!).

For me, it's very clear the situation is equal: except that Dixon's run contradicted Morrison's directly - hence being fired -, while Shooter's will probably be vaporized by the end of L3W, but still necessary to keep the book running until L3W is through.

By the way, the new solicits are VERY tasty. Shooter is building a hell of a story, probably the best since Giffen left back in LSH 39.

I was the one who mixed up Doctor Destiny and Destiny.

It is also important to say that Vertigo "acquired" DCU properties much later than House of Mystery run. Swamp Thing was a DCU character, but now it is largely considered he is just Vertigo. So, Destiny, being a Sandman character, will hardly be the same one on DCU. Reign In Hell seems to deal with that, creating a "different" Neuron for DCU.

Carlin has a long track record of continuity suckage at DC...long before Didio arrived.

It could be due to Carlin being stupid, and Didio trusting him to be competent.


I mean Countdown and DOTNG don't even match up...are you saying those editors weren't aware they were crossing over? That weren't producing the work to make it match up?


What is Didio supposed to do, write and draw it?


Carlin is the White Trinagle, he's the no Superboy edict(I mean even the PU Superboy and you can't even reference him), he's probably reason A#1 Giffen got fed up with the 5YG Legion....his idea of continuity is not to not let anyone else mention the characters.


And he edited Countdown...


Countdown is the crap in all of this. Are we in agreement on this?


And what was Countdown? An on the fly attempt to capture the financial power of the weekly format. Thrown together, with multiple editors, writers, artists, etc.

And Carlin wasn't the original editor of Countdown either...Mike Marts was.


Maybe it is those two guys...


You can fault Didio for greenlighting a bad series...but at some point, as the article you posted points out, the Editors have to do something...and this is what they do.


I mean Marts was on both Countdown and DOTNG...you telling me he hadn't talked to Carlin?


I think Jim Starlin drew a couple of issues of Countdown as well...

Are these guys suppsed to have Didio there when they talk or what?

So, again, it is not a matter of continuity, it is a company mess. I just read that Carlos Pacheco will draw FC. Proof of DC's mess.

Countdown was crap? How about Death of New Gods that, while good, had nothing to do with FC because the editor was probably unaware of what Morrison was preparing.

Again, you are taking a grudge against Carlin for what he did to Superman and LSH's continuity (which we may not like) to his professionalism (his years on X-Men are for me enough proof he is a competent editor as far as his tasks are).

Why is that the end of the World? And it sounds like that's the problem of JG Jones, not Didio..


Better to have it run late and be all JG Jones or have Pacheo help out and ship on time?


Again...how is that proof of Didio's incompetence? Trusting JG Jones to get the job done, with 6-7 months lead time?


Do you agree?


Ironically enough...Mike Marts was the Editor of DOTNG...he was also the original editor of Countdown...and the endings of Countdown and DOTNG don't even match.


Again...you want to bash Didio for greenlighting bad series fine, but the EIC isn't the continuity cop, that's the Editor's job.


Is he?

I've never seen anything to prove he's particularly adept at co-ordinating with OTHERS. In fact all I've seen is that he's virtually incompetent in this area, and not co-operative at all.


Don't get me wrong, Didio is greenlighting series just for profits sake, but ultimately the responsibility for making the continuity matchup are the Editors of those titles.


I mean what do you think their job is?


And I'd say the reason Chuck Dixon is no longer there has to do with the fact that his books no longer sell...and if the W&K gets axed...it's going to be for similar reasons, as all the others(except for the original) were axed.


Jim Shooter was signed for a year and they have a years worth of stories that appear likely to be published...how is that firing?

It's got several months to find an audience...if it does, I doubt it'll be axed. But right now it doesn't...obviously.


As for the DOTNG stuff, Didio's no saint, but I don't view that continuity gaffe as his responsibility...it's the editors responsibility.


Gran't event was the big event...period. The DOTNG and Countdown were supposed to match him...not vice versa. The fact that those titles didn't is the fault of those Editors, not Didio.

What's the prevailing attitude about Pocket Universe Superboy? Does/did he exist at all? Can he be used by DC in this mega crossover extravaganza that will change everything forever?
(again)

I've come to the conclusion that he's an entirely separate character set in his own separate reality. Earth-1 Superman was never Superboy. period. Kal-L was found then adopted from an orphanage, Kal-El was raised by the Kents from day one. He even had Superbaby adventures.
*snort*

The real Superboy could join the Legion (knowing he hails from a doppleganger universe) and kick Sb-Prime's face in to the cheers of a delighted readership. There were some hints post crisis from the character that could be pulled out from history to justify almost anything. Maybe he could even join this Legion as Superman (take that lawsuit) and live a long life in the 31st Century.

..and whatever happened to that hypertime son of Clark and Diana?..does he count for anything anywhere?

We will never agree, apparently. Carlin was responsible for X-Men books for its arguably best editing era. His Superman books, while not to your tastes, had a regularity of teams and deadlines not seen these days.
When too many editors (at least 4: Berganza, Carlin, Marts and Scheaffer) are doing such heavy bad continuity screw-ups - or even worse - losing talent by the droves (Dixon's Robin was selling pretty well for DC standards) and having fill-ins every other month, it is a symptom of a higher problem. In fact, this is my area of work (strategy and business), so I just know it is a top executive problem.
And I don't even like Chuck Dixon's writing. And, yes, Countdown seemed to have been changing directions every other issue to fit something. Apparently, it didn't fit anything.

Hmmm...I don't remember Carlin being the Editor of the X-Men.


I'm not saying he wasn't...I just don't remember it if he was.


When was this?


Countdown came out regularly as well...didn't mean it was good.

IF that's how you feel then isn't DC's decision to add Carlos Pacheo to the Final Crisis Title a good one? I mean so the books will come out on time.


According to Dixon he was fired..

You might be right about all that...although I still don't fully understand how you hold the EIC responsible for artists not getting their work done on time. It seems to me that on the one hand you are critical of the late shipping..and then OTOH, you are critical of adding Pacheo to FC so it won't ship late...

What is the solution? Hire faster artists?

The faster artists don't necessaily sell as well as the slower ones. Plus how do you know they aren't fast until you give them the chance?


I don't think Didio's flawless...at the same time, I don't expect the EIC to be the top continuity cop. The only way that's Didio's fault is if Didio gave himself that responsibility.


And Robin doesn't sell that well...if it did they wouldn't be cancelling it. And the W&k Legion doesn't sell well either. IF it gets overrun by Johns...it'll be fore that reason.

I still don't see how Johns can be accused of overunning Shooter though...since Johns introduced the LS Legion before Shooter was back on the book.

The Time Trapper in Action 864 referenced the Pocket Universe Superboy as being the result of one of his manipulations...I'm not sure if he's still out there or not.


The other stuff was Hypertime...I'm not even sure that's around anymore. They never did much with it...which was unfortunate IMO.

Well I say screw Carlin, Just like he screwed the Legion and their fans.

Re: SUPERMAN #295 -

Unfortunately, the online reprint of it was yanked awhile back, so you could read it for yourselves, but as I recall (I can't find my copy as my collection is all over the place - so this is from memory) the Legion makes a one panel appearance. The story was that the Time Trapper messed with the past to make the Legion's 30th Century not exist.

Xenofobe, the Green Lantern of the Legion's time realizes this somehow (maybe it was explained in the story? He was "out-of-the-time-stream" as the change was made?) and goes into the past disguised as "Father Time" to steal Superman's costume and give it to "Jaxon the Mighty" in the 25th (or 27th Century, I think). Superman then goes to that time and challenges Jaxon which for whatever reason restores time to normal and recreates the Legion time line, which is revealed to Superman by Xenofobe (a purple-skinned alien Green Lantern) at the end. The Legion appear just to show that time was restored and never appear beyond that, so that was why it was never in an Archive. There were plenty of Legion appearances in the Silver Age (some major) that never made an Archive or the Showcases for reasons that baffle me to this day.

Will Archives ever get back? Some new editions have come up recently, so I hoped LSH would finally continue.

Alright gents....we've hashed out Supergirl, Superboy, the TimeTrapper and Reboots and Retcons, to the satisfaction and unanimous agreement of absolutely no one ...


So let's take on another challenge shall we fellows?

What about Krypto?

Is he a part of the Legion history, or isn't he?


I say yea!

I say yea! Because...a dog with the powers of Superman is actually pretty cool if you think about it.

And I'd like to remind everyone that, as Alan Moore proved...there are no stupid characters, only stupid writers that don't know how to use them.



I just like Krypto...I hope he shows up to continue his feud with Prime. He's trying to avenge Connor you know.


And keep in mind, Krypto doesn't join just any SuperTeam...there's the Legion...and SCPA(Space Canine Patrol Agency)...


Ricardo, what say you? I just have a hunch you are a Krypto fan

Superpets are fine... in an Ambush Bug title. I can deal with DC Monkeys, but definitely not SuperZoo. Next we will have Streaky or a SuperChinchilla (come to think of it, THAT would be cooler, with SuperBO powers).

Sorry to disappoint you... Maybe a powerless Krypto, like John Byrne instituted? (in fact, is this post-IC Krypto from Krypton?)

Actually, I remember I thought it was very childish to see Krypto on that old Superman cartoon on TV (even being a young teen myself). Never keen on Superboy and Krypto, in fact... I just liked Superman on that one.

To this day I'm still staggered by how little Supergirl was integral to the Silver Age Legion.

It seems like most of her involvement was having Legion members come back to the 20th Century, appear for 2/3 panels and save her arse from the latest villain.

That or she was included for "girl's stories". If it had to do with fake weddings or a gender revolution then Kara was all over the place.
Her strongest character development issue was her thing with B5. Their romance actually evolved through the times Supergirl attended Legion gatherings. So much so that it's accepted as simple indisputable fact until Waid's latest run. I actually missed it, I could have used something familiar to help build empathy.

I Still remember the shock of finding that her doppleganger in the 5yg had a child with Rond Vidar. Blasphemy! Even there though B5 still suffered from unrequited love for a blonde powerhouse.

Seems like the Legion flounders without Superboy/Superman but would probably cruise along just fine without Supergirl. The recent run of Supergirl in the Legion was rather flat and unexciting, even Brainy's developed an attraction to a dead platinum blonde (or a psychotic break - take your pick)in her place. Yet run a story arc in Action where Superman meets up with his adolescent homies and fandom goes apes**t over it.

With Supes you get a dynamic interaction of the present with the future as classic sci-fi and Kal gets to be "our" primitive point of view. Without him you get dotLEGION in in the future...with lots more characters..

Krypto...maybe if DC writers can put as much imagination into Krypto as Alan Moore did with Radar the Hound Supreme during his run on Supreme, or anything in that ballpark, I'd be very enthusiastic about him. Otherwise, I couldn't give a patootie about whether or not he or the other Super Pets are around in Legion stories.

Perhaps, we could compromise and have a gorilla Legionnaire instead?

Nah, let's have Ambush Bug's Dark Proty instead. That's an animal for the Legion.

It's really a shame that Supergirl pre-Crisis was so underused and used poorly when she was. I'm sure a lot of this had to do with Superboy's presence dominating for so long and the desire of the writers to not further overshadow the other Legionnaires by having both characters around.

And yes, Superboy, I know Superboy helped make Legion a bestseller back then, but maybe if the writers had alternated the cousins more, Supergirl's full potential as a Legionnaire could've been realised. Kara was pretty popular, too, back then, so sales probably would've been stable. She was a Legionnaire, too, and deserved more and better appearances than what she got.

As I said before, I think Levitz showed flashes of her potential in his uses of her and might have taken her to greater heights if she hadn't been killed or he'd been allowed to use his original Sensor Girl idea.

It's unbelievable how badly Waid dropped the ball with his golden opportunity to right that wrong. I know he didn't want to rely on old story beats, but a Brainy/Supergirl attraction was a MUST!! And he made her about as interesting as navel lint! Great job there, Mark Waid!

I like Supergirl...I agree with pretty much all you said concerning her usage.

I wasn't a fan of her being written out.

My only opininion on it is that I like Laurel Gand as well. I want them both.


I don't see why one has to preclude the other...


I don't have a doubt in the World that Levitz wanted to use Supergirl.

I think the entire thing with Sensor Girl was a stealth play on his part to sort of sneak her into the Legion, that got squahed by Jeanette Kahn.


I thought Waid did a pretty good job of writing her. I just think his overall storytelling was off...it was too decompressed IMO.

A book this big, with this many characters, set a thousand years in the future, can't run at the pace Waid was running it at...


Maybe somewhere down the road when everything is established you could slow it down like Waid had done...but not during a relaunch.

I mean think about it...we still really have no clue what happened to this team before the series started. We hardly have any idea of the Universe they live in, how it's changed from the current DC U etc.


Waid and the Legion just weren't meant to be.

Shooter's only 6-7 issues in and I already like his run better than any of Waid's.

Me neither. Laurel (especially during TMK) was her own fully-realized character. At the same time, though, she showed flashes of what Supergirl's true potential could've been as an active Legionnaire given room to play.

I'm one of the biggest Laurel fans ever, but I know that it was the absence of Supergirl that made her existence possible in the first place. It is that knowledge and knowing there's now another Supergirl and Power Girl in existence that makes me skeptical that we'll ever see Laurel again on a regular basis. I'm pretty sure, though, that she will at least appear during L3W.

Yeah, it's a shame that we never got to see that. However, Projectra emerged for the better from the story alteration, without a doubt. And I'd have to concede that bringing Supergirl back so soon after Crisis #7 would have diminished the impact of one of comics' greatest deaths. (Yes, it could be argued that the reboot of the Superman mythos did that, too, but Kara Zor-El was absent from comics for a long, long time, at least.)

I'd have to disagree with ya there. Kara was pretty much a nonentity under Waid, with the exception of the New Krypton bits, maybe. Of course, most of the Legion were nonentities under Waid...

Copy that, good buddy! It just took FOREVER for anything to happen during Waid's long run, and even then, a lot of things never paid off!

Shooter is showing his gifts as a master storyteller. Maybe a whole helluva lot hasn't happened yet, but we're getting tons more character development, interesting subplots and a real feel for day-to-day life as a Legionnaire in those 6 issues published so far than we did for 30 issues under Waid! Florg that!

Thing that realy surprised me, mind you this is just from recently perusing through cameo issues, is that I came away with the feeling that she was about as integral to the Legion as Jimmy Olsen. Same stories, same cameo's...Only the gender was different. It really changed my outlook on the character's membership. I now think it was better when I was ignorant of the lesser known stories.

I would much prefer seeing Laurel Gand back as a member instead.